----------
From a LOST member:
The Hemi TC is built to the same low quality standard and bottom line cost as the Liberty CRD stock TC, on the same line at the same 40 yer old Chrysler Toledo Machining Plant in Perrysburg, Ohio. The Toledo Machining Plant that builds torque converters and steering columns, not exactly a bastion of high tech torque converter manufacturing. It's not even a transmission plant. I see the Hemi TC mod for the CRD in the same quality bin as the 2nd Generation Ufie/Bosch fuel head - it doesn't fail like the original, but it only shines in comparison to a really, really bad predecessor.

Same cheap paper clutch material, same plastic stator vanes, same low quality components. It's vane angle is different, but many posts on it's sloppy hookup in the Ram Hemi performance forums exist about it as well. It doesn't fare well when Ram Hemi owners take it to the drag strip for weekend racing.
It's built to last through warranty, nothing more. If it does, it's gravy and good luck, it's certainly not because of quality components.

Not a high quality part at all and certainly not worth throwing another $800-$900 worth of R&R labor to replace a slipping TC at a decent tranny shop if it fails on you further down the road instead of immediately. I've held the plastic stator and other components from all 3 Mopar TC's in my hands - it's junk quality, period. No if ands or butts about it. It's lowball quality. The TC clutch piston is poorly machined and the metal looks to be what we used to call "pot metal," low grade scrap metal used for the lowest cost applications.

These gents may be letting the better hydraulic coupling fool them into thinking it's a better quality torque converter. Better hydraulic coupling has *nothing* to do with the quality of the materials or construction. It has different springs, possibly explaining the lack of tc clutch bottoming out, but then so does the Euro and that thing is a stock TC with thicker stator clutch springs. See Warps pics - Euro is a stock CRD TC with springs that are .020 " thicker. That's the fix for the shudder from Mopar. A Mopar Hemi TC will couple better, but it only shines when compared to a very low standard, the stock or Euro Liberty CRD TC. If I see 40 or so CRD's running a Mopar Hemi TC for 200K miles and still going strong, I might change my mind, but I'm not holding my breath. We're talking Mopar quality, now run by Fiat.

You've seen my updates on Chrysler's quality of late on $50K Jeep GC's and Ram trucks, whether it's the engines, TIPM's, transmissions or even the CV boots. it's crap, with beautiful styling and great performance. They just don't care about quality and Fiat is not making it better, they're making it worse. They just fired the QA VP, who was responsible for upgrading the interior materials in Jeep and Ram vehicles. It wasn't Chrysler management who did this, it was Sergio himself.

Labor to R&R is higher than the cost of the SunCoast or a cheaply built TC, so recommending a Mopar Hemi TC can quickly become more expensive than doing it right the first time. Another $800 in R&R labor to replace a TC again quickly wipes out any $350 savings by using a cheaply built Mopar Hemi TC.
Take the cost of a Mopar TC, selling from an online dealership for $335 to $350. Bought from Mopar for $100 - $150, who bought it from Chrysler/TMP for $50 - $75. Cost of materials is very likely around $25-$35 tops. With a manufacturer like SunCoast, if markup is 2x, without a middleman, then the cost of materials is at least $300 vs $35 for a Mopar TC. If I use just the cost of the 2 torque converters and $800 for R&R labor, it's $1495 for a SunCoast TC vs $1150 for a Mopar Hemi TC. $350 savings for Mopar bottom of the barrel quality? It's not even a good joke.

The sloppy fit on the TC clutch apply piston and stamped steel cover of the Mopar TC is likely worsened by the very poor condition of Chrysler tooling, long overdue for upgrades due to poor management decisions. It's missing due to the Daimler raiding of the $9 billion in cash Chrysler had set aside for tooling and plant upgrades in 1998! Daimler used that money to pay off their own internal debt instead of tooling and plant upgrades, then sold them to Cerberus, who further delayed these upgrades during the global recession. Now insiders are complaining that tooling and robotics, worn out as they are, are being replaced with low end new equipment from a Fiat subsidiary in Italy, who makes equipment with half the precision of tooling Chrysler had in 1998!

Not a good recipe for a quality torque converter.

Bottom line preventative maintenance on a good working transmission for both TC stator shudder and TC slip:

1. New quality torque converter and seals. Euro/Hemi TC will do in a pinch, but may need replacement well before 200K miles due to low quality materials
2. Upgraded, hardened (anodized) valve body Chrysler upgraded to in mid 2010 - the ones with the black appearance instead of the silver
3. Sonnax/Transgo hardened pump and valve body liner inserts and hardened steel valves and springs - well known early wear issues that cause clutch slip
4. Full fluid replacement, including cooler, TC and lines to cooler.
5. New quality filters
6. Magnefine filtration, changed every 12K miles.

All of the Mopar torque converters for the 45/545RFE have proven over 15 years of use to have low cost paper clutches, plastic stators, washer thrust bearings, cheap steel stamped covers/tc clutch pistons and springs. When you see these Mopar TC's opened up, it's immediately obvious how low the quality of both materials and machining tolerances were used. That includes the Hemi TC. Not what you want in a diesel engine vehicle.

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount
98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve

More information surfaced to consider on TC's:
Good information sent to me from a fellow LOST member and CRD owner.

Feel free to share with those determined to justify misguided recommendations.
The Ram Hemi TC has a long problem history, where it was manufactured defective right from the Toledo Stamping Plant for over 4 years! The splines were not machined correctly and rattled and caused major problems for Hemi owners. Think a set of loose TC splines could shear right off on a 4WD Jeep while it's twisting wheels, wrenching on mud covered rocks, climbing out of a hole, or towing 5K lbs whenever a jerk occurs in the drive line?

FCA issued a TSB, not a recall to address this. Any Jeep Liberty CRD owners looking to a Hemi TC to solve shudder may end up substituting one headache for another. For evidence, look at the Hemi forums where owners complain of constant torque converter problems. One of their many complaints besides rattle is shudder. Not something any CRD owner needs to repeat on their own dime.

I didn't even include the long list of owner forum complaints on the replacement Hemi torque converter that was worse than the original rattle and shudder. FCA ran out the clock on that one as they started installing the ZF 8 speed transmission in MY 2013. AFAICK, FCA never properly addressed the defective Hemi torque converter issue at all. FYI, Chryserler/FCA makes all of their own torque converters in their Toledo Stamping Plant, which makes steering components and other small parts. It's not even a transmission plant, just a 40 year old stamping plant. It also makes the torque converters for the ZF 9 speed now used in the Jeep Cherokee. That would be the transmission with major problems and Jeep dealerships were changing them out at the rate of 12 to 15 per week due to failures. I'm not going to post the research, but it's out there.

I'd say its best not to confuse a better vane angle on the Hemi TC for quality and longevity - that kind of quality just doesn't exist at FCA any longer. If someone wants to save $350 and risk the kinds of issues Hemi owners are posting below, then go for it. So while some Hemi TC installations may work, it's clear from those who use them in Ram trucks that they have major quality issues, shudder, rattle, moan and undesirable performance. It's only by comparing it to a worse TC, the one Chrysler shipped with the Liberty CRD, that it looks better.

Look at this TSB and then read the Hemi owner problems at the links listed.
http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=345760
http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330255

Star Case: S1121000005
Release Date: 6/30/11

Symptom/Vehicle Issue:
Customer indicates that the vehicle has a slight moan, drone, or rattle noise and sounds as though it is coming from the exhaust, The customer may indicate that the noise occurs under light load (1400 - 1700 engine rpm - around 40 to 60 mph)

Diagnosis:
Confirm that the noise only occurs while the torque converter is in lock-up at low speeds (around 1400 - 1700 engine RPM) at approximately 45 mph. If the noise is heard while transmission is in partial lock-up at 1400 - 1700 RPM, put the vehicle into ERS - Tow/Haul mode (deactivates MDS and torque converter in full lock-up) If the noise is unchanged, perform the following repair procedure. If the noise goes away in ERS mode, further diagnosis is required. If the noise occurs above 1700 RPM or below 1400 RPM, further diagnosis is required.

Parts Required:
AR (1) RL051167AB Kit, Torque Converter
(fits
2009 - 2011 2WD DS R/T Only)

AR (1) RL051146AB Kit, Torque Converter
(fits
2009 4.7L WK/WH/W2/XK/XH,
2009 5.7L DS/DC/DH/D1/HB/HG/WK/WH/W2/XK
2010 5.7L DS/DD/DJ/DX/WK/WH/XK/XH
2011 5.7L DS/DD/DJ/D2 Only)

AR (1) RL0512241AB Kit, Torque Converter
(fits
2008 4.7L 2WD ND/HB/HG/DR/WK/WH/XK/XH
2008 4.7L 4WD WK/WH/XK/XH
2008 5.7L 2WD/4WD DR/HB/HG/WK/WH/XK/XH
2009 4.7L 2WD ND/HB/HG/DS
2010 4.7L 2WD ND/DS/DX
2011 4.7L 2WD DS/DX/ND
2011 5.7L 2WD/4WD WD/WK/W2 Only)

Repair Procedure:
Replace the torque converter.
Follow the procedures identified in the service manual.

Special Notice:
If your converter is being replaced for the noise issue, you do not need to replace (or inspect) the pump. Noisy converters do not generate debris that will harm the pump. Removing the pump can put you at risk for mispositioned thrust bearings in the input clutch assy (a fairly common screw-up when pulling the pump by itself), and that will cause a complete trans failure if it happens. So my recommendation would be to leave the pump alone, unless you have line pressure problems or torque converter clutch (TCC) engagement problems.

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount
98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve

Many thanks for the warnings WW. Sad thing is, I bought the Euro, then sold it before install since it was looking like the Hemi was a better fit. Now you show compelling evidence that the Hemi could be crap right out of the box. Double
I wonder if most of the issues from the Hemi were caused by the much higher output of the Hemi engine? I may put the Hemi in and test it, and since I do it myself I won't have the labor costs. hmm

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete

By those accounts, all OEM torque converters are crap.
Which is actually true.
If it wasn't true companies like B&M, TCI, Suncoast, etc wouldn't be in business.
No OEM torque converter is made to handle drag racing.
How well a torque converter performs and lasts depends on how it is driven.

So yeah, the Hemi TC is crap.
The Euro TC is crap.
The factory CRD TC is crap.
But for average drivers these crappy torque converters work just fine.

Chrysler knew the factory CRD TC was crap too.
That's why there was the F37 recall.
The solution was NOT an upgraded TC but instead a re programmed TCM that changed the shift points.

Suncoast makes an awesome TC. But it's overkill for the average CRD driver.
I have Hemi TC sitting in its box waiting for me to install.
Someday I will get around to doing it.
And I expect it will perform satisfactorily.
And I won't be drag racing it.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

The person who provided that quote has made exactly one post on the forum.
He stated that he had the GDE tune, experienced shudder with the Euro and with the Hemi TCs. But gave no information as to what his driving conditions were or how he was driving it.
I hardly consider this one post an accurate depiction of a Hemi TC installed behind 2.8 liter Diesel engine.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

I'd guess since gde has on one Crd the euro tc, that can't be crap for the normal user... But I do agree with wwdiesel regarding the suncoast. If you want the peace of mind, mental comfort or whatever you name it, you get a suncoast since you know it can handle anything you throw at it.

_________________
2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.

Yeah, in that case, that post sounds really fishy. Like someone that has something to gain by us buying something besides the cheap Chrysler TC's... Maybe they will chime in and correct me

I wanted to maximize mpg's when not locked up (long distance off-roading), so I'm thinking the lighter Hemi with more aggressive hook-up will be the best. Maybe I'd lose 1-2 mpg with the extra mass of the Suncoast? hmm, I guess if it lasted 300k+ (forever), and the hemi lasted 200k I'd lose out in the long run. Well dangit, I'm just going to chuck the Hemi in there and give it a test run. If it sucks, I'll get a Suncoast or similar.

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete

That's interesting input, considering those model year failure figures seem vaguely concerned with only four (count'em: 4) years, 008-011 - the Hemi and it's TC has been around far longer than that, so maybe it's resulted from some chassis change, or engine tune - or, defective TC

"It doesn't fare well when Ram Hemi owners take it to the drag strip for weekend racing."

Therein lies your possible problem - any of you KJ CRD owners that spend each weekend at the drag-strip, SUNCOAST could be a viable option for you

- all input is something to consider, some with only a grain of salt, some with a large yellow salt-lick: caveat licktor

All factory clutch material is a type of 'paper', compressed with various compounds that allow the oil-soaked paper to function as friction component against a steel plate over hundreds of thousands of apply\release cycles in all automatic transmissions and TC clutch plates

If you want better than factory paper, get RED EAGLE clutch plates, now a standard amongst rebuilders in the industry, but the oem paper has held up very well across the wide spectrum of end-user use and abuse for many, many years

You will have better service in HD and racing application with a complete after-market rebuild - RED EAGLE friction plates, KOLENE steels

The SUNCOAST is excellent - if you can afford it, get it (mine will shudder in some instances, not SUNCOAST fault)

But it will not solve all shudder symptoms, particularly those generated by a 4-cyl CRD turboDiesel engine shoe-horned into a short-wheelbase unit-body chassis - if the KJ did not have the short separate engine-cradle sub-frame, the shudders\vibrations would be even greater - particularly so since the VM CRD is 2.8L, very large for a 4-cyl Diesel engine in a passenger-only vehicle - the twin-balance shafts were required to get the torsional vibrations down to an acceptable level in this type application

The complaints of those that race the Hemi\545RFE in any chassis are prolly legit - aftermarket (f'rinstance: B&M) TC upgrades have been around as long as I have been wrenching, and for some of the same complaints: something better is needed for weekend short-trippin' and week-nite 'mine's bigger'n'yers' events

Hemi and CRD are not spelled the same way for specific reason - do not confuse the concepts and practical application

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

My only intent friends was to give information for owners to make the very best choices when it comes to buying and installing torque converters!!!
Reason being, I personally made some poor choices in my past on TC's, not only once but twice, and it cost me a lot of money to learn the hard way, by experience. And no, NEVER drag raced any diesel on weekends, only towed a trailer.

To some extent, I agree with flash7210; if you are stock and never change the power level of your CRD and and you never pull or tow any loads, a Hemi TC may be a viable option. We still have not received much feedback on this forum of their performance by people who have installed them. Jury's still out, so to speak!

On the other hand; if you increase your engine's HP / torque output with a re-flash and you possibly tow a trailer, then you may want to consider a high end torque converter like a Suncoast or others.

If you install a Euro or Hemi and it does not last or does not hold the torque (shudders) or has the spline rattle eluded to in the previous posts; you have made an expensive mistake. If you are paying to have the TC installed by a shop, the cost to install is as much or more than the cost of a high end TC. Money down the drain if you have to do it more than once!!!!!

Make your own choice, try and make the best one if possible.....

_________________
Supporting Vendor and Moderator of LOST
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited
Ironman Springs/Bilstein/Shocks
Yeti StgIV Hot Tune
Week's BatteryTray
No FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pmp
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NO CAT
V6Airbox/noVH
GM11 Bld.fan/HDClutch
IronrockArms/wwdieselMount
98 Dodge Cummins 24 Valve

We have 120 K towing 5000 lbs long distances with GDE HOT tune on our Euro TC without any shudder, yet.

Keith has two KJ CRDS with Euro TCs, one with his turbo kit. In testing out west in the Rockies, he extensively towed 8000 pounds. So far, so good for him.

I do not know anyone who has 200K on the euro, but I am much more concerned about my motor getting to 200K than the TC, at this point.

DOC

_________________
2005 KJ CRD Ltd Detroit TrueTrac Bilsteins G2 GDE "HOT" ECU GDE TCM "Tow Tune" "euro" TC SEGR Weeks Elbow New HG at 130K ARPs Clean CAT aFe Filter Magnaflow Exhaust EHM Cumminos In-Tank Lift Pump Hayden Fan Clutch Nylon Fan VH Enabled with GDE lower shutoff point Recalibrated Temp Gauge Tekonsha Prodigy Sears P-1 ZDDP

No problem, your posted input gives another perspective, tho highly opinionated and based on lack of info on normal manufacturing production procedures and componentry
- that description of "paper" clutches would be enuff to scare anyone off, unless they were aware that "paper" is normal clutch construction material, and the descriptive term "paper" is used universally to describe many paper-derivative products, including toilet and writing and money
- and of which three items should never be confused in performance of the associated scenarios

Paper is good - most of you guys have over a hundred thousand miles on paper clutch material - drop the pan and notice the amount of brown "sludge" for an indication of the wear capabilities of "paper" clutch materials

Clutches with RED EAGLE friction material are much better, and some are now using KEVLAR linings in the transmission and TC clutch plate - at much increased cost per unit

The SUNCOAST Hemi TCC with KEVLAR will not solve all shudder symptoms

The oem Hemi TCC with paper will not solve all shudder symptoms

Most shudder symptoms are transferred thru the engine\transmission and transmission\transfer case attachment points, having nothing to do with the hydraulic coupling between the engine pto hub and the transmission input shaft, in that ubiquitous device usually known as the torque converter
- any shudder coupled thru the torque converter will be resulted when in direct-coupled TCC lockup, usually when overdrive is engaged
- compare any noticed shudder within any rpm range before and after TCC lockup, in and out of overdrive

And, unless any of your KJ's are stressing the Hemi TCC like those Hemi 1500 RAMs on the drag strip, you will not experience those indicated problems
- it would seem highly unlikely that DCJ would still be selling any '08-'011 possibly defective torque converters across the counter
- just relax and enjoy the improvements afforded by the tighter hydraulic hookup
- if you want to eliminate incidence of 4-cyl CRD shudder, install the 60* CRD V6 from one of the later DCJ models
- 60* V6's are very smooth, including the CRD versions
- however, CRD and spark-infested V6's will vibrate (shudder) when lugged

So, as noted above^, Make your own choice, try and make the best one if possible.....

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Just ordered a TC from floridatorquecomverters.com salesman stated that their TC will outlast the tranny. Did not recommend putting the hemi TC in the CRD. It was $199 plus shipping, so I guess I'm rolling the dice, but we shall see.

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Of course they didnt. Its not what originally came with the vehicle.

More important, what TC did they recommend using?
Hopefully not some stock replacment one.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

According to the salesman, they manufacture these to much higher standards than factory to ensure that there are no shudder issues as with the factory ones. He also said that the diesel and gas converters are engineered differently, that was the reason for recommendation he made. It arrived today, so we shall see!

Obviously I ordered the right thing....says so right on the box. "Best darn torque converters" LOL

I also like the "install it gently, drive it hard.....no problems" hahaha

I really hope it lives up to the hype!

I plan on doing my own torque converter, and if I have to do it again in 100,000 miles i really don't care. Plus, the hemi ram is putting out more torque and SUBSTANTIALLY more HP than even GDE's hot tuned CRD if you go by the paper numbers. It accelerates a heavier vehicle much faster than we could ever hope too and all of that force is going through the TC. Only a GDE stage 2 is going to make the torque #'s of the hemi and thats what, 5 people here, and with substantially less HP.

Where is Diesel_guy86. What is he running in his super jeep?

I'll go with the hemi TC over the Euro just so it doesnt feel like the engine is tied to the transmission with rubber bands. This thing drives so loose.

_________________
2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs

Here's a post going in the opposite direction

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=81812

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

Got the one from floridatorqueconverters.com installed. Fixed the shudder problem for now. We'll see how it lasts.

Any more details?
How well does it drive?

_________________
U.S. Army Retired