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Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82047		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  sbohner [ Wed May 06, 2015 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
The Problem: When I stop at a light or stop sign, transmission grabs harshly and occasionally stalls.

Background: Back when Chysler/Jeep was doing the Torque Converter replacements along with F37 (I had 10K miles on the CRD), I avoided that debacle by being one of the early LOST folks who ordered the Suncoast TC. I was able to persuade the Chrysler/Jeep dealer to install the Suncoast TC and NOT do the F37 flash, so long as he got to keep the factory TC. Both were happy.

Dial forward 130K miles... After driving across the Appalachian Mountains through West Virginia, I noticed that the transmission seemed to be a bit grabby when I came to stop signs. :o I checked the transmission fluid and saw it was a little low, but not out of bounds. I also noticed it was grabby in the morning when I started the engine to go and would often stall the first time I put it in gear. So, I put it down to time to do a general transmission service.

So, I took the CRD to the local AAMCO place and had the service fluid changed with ATF4. It didn't improve. I took it back and the fellow at the AAMCO place checked it over and didn't see anything wrong - but it still was grabby. :? I drove the Jeep on a short trip (about 2 hours) and upon returning, the transmission was really grabbing at stop and even jumping through the shifts quickly. So, I took it back in to the AAMCO place. This time he checked the fluid pressure and it was fine, but he did find that the connection to the cooler was leaking and it had lost about a quart and a half of fluid. :shock:

At this point, I got a second opinion and had the transmission checked by ALL Tran, another local transmission service provider. He said it was stalling because the engine was not tuned well. The engine starts and runs strong, so I was a bit confused. :? So, I went to a local Auto provider this time, and he recommended replacing the whole transmission. :furious:

While I have not worked on Automatic transmissions, I am familiar with engine work and have rebuilt engines (gas fuel) before and done some of the work on my CRD. So, after hearing these fellows who looked at it and their answers neither converging nor one being very satisfying, I'm appealing to the best source know - you guys. What do you think?
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed May 06, 2015 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Quote:
I also noticed it was grabby in the morning when I started the engine to go and would often stall the first time I put it in gear.


This sounds like the common transmission drainback problem.
When starting it first thing in the morning, let it idle in N for a minute to get the fluid pumped up. Then put it in gear.

Check the trans fluid while idling, fully warmed up, shifter in N, and park brake on.
If the fluid level is at the full-hot mark, add another 1/2 quart of ATF+4.
These transmissions seem to work better when slightly over-filled.
(dipstick marks are not accurate)

If that doesn't help, you may need a new transmission pump.
(Transmission pump was one of the things that should have been replaced with the F-37 but was left to the discretion of the technician. For most folks, it was not replaced.)
Author:  gmctd [ Wed May 06, 2015 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Drainback results in slip\no gear engagement\vehicle doesn't move till pump picks up enuff fluid to create hydraulic pressure in the apply circuits

Sounds more like the TCC is engaging at odd times, or not fully disengaging, but not under TCM control
- could be dirty connector at transmission
- could be dirty connector at TCM
- could be failing solenoid pack
- could be failing valve body

Really need to get it on a DCJ scantool to read any TCM codes

Poorly-running spark-infested engines can shut down when trans is placed in gear due to minimal torque availability at idle
Author:  sbohner [ Wed May 06, 2015 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
flash7210 wrote:
Quote:
I also noticed it was grabby in the morning when I started the engine to go and would often stall the first time I put it in gear.


This sounds like the common transmission drainback problem.
When starting it first thing in the morning, let it idle in N for a minute to get the fluid pumped up. Then put it in gear.

Check the trans fluid while idling, fully warmed up, shifter in N, and park brake on.
If the fluid level is at the full-hot mark, add another 1/2 quart of ATF+4.
These transmissions seem to work better when slightly over-filled.
(dipstick marks are not accurate)

If that doesn't help, you may need a new transmission pump.
(Transmission pump was one of the things that should have been replaced with the F-37 but was left to the discretion of the technician. For most folks, it was not replaced.)


Thanks Flash!

Based on a post here on the Drainback problem, I had already used the "put in neutral for a minute before starting in the morning", and it appeared to help half of the time. However, it didn't address the increasing "grabby'ness" as the CRD warmed up, and the associated stalling at stops. This was what prompted me to have the guy at AAMCO check the pump and line pressures - he found them well in the normal range.

I think I will try adding some more ATF+4 and see if the problem changes. Again, thanks!
Author:  sbohner [ Wed May 06, 2015 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
gmctd wrote:
Drainback results in slip\no gear engagement\vehicle doesn't move till pump picks up enuff fluid to create hydraulic pressure in the apply circuits

Sounds more like the TCC is engaging at odd times, or not fully disengaging, but not under TCM control
- could be dirty connector at transmission
- could be dirty connector at TCM
- could be failing solenoid pack
- could be failing valve body

Really need to get it on a DCJ scantool to read any TCM codes

Poorly-running spark-infested engines can shut down when trans is placed in gear due to minimal torque availability at idle


Thanks Gmctd!

It sounds like getting it scanned beyond what I can do with my ScanGauge is necessary. Would the DCJ scantool be available at other places other than the dealer?

Also, I noticed a couple of times since the transmission service that when I came to the top of a substantial hill (yes we have a couple of these in Indiana), I would get a minor rumble strip feeling - hopefully not the dreaded "Shutter of Death".

Again, thanks for the good analysis!
Author:  gmctd [ Wed May 06, 2015 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
DRBIII for '05 and STARSCAN for '06 are DCJ's official programmer\scantools, and normally a dealer-only item - however, the AUTEL MaxiSYS or MaxiDAS series of scanners read everything the dealer scantool can read - HARBOR FREIGHT carries one of them - maybe AUTOZONE can scan TCM codes - better transmission shops should have a functional scantool for their service requirements

At one time, a DCJ scantool service fee was ~$95.
Author:  gmctd [ Wed May 06, 2015 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Were both filters replaced when fluid was replaced?
Author:  sbohner [ Wed May 06, 2015 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
gmctd wrote:
Were both filters replaced when fluid was replaced?


Thanks Gmctd, for the info on the Scantool!

Both Filters were replaced when the fluid was replaced, but the fellow doing the service did not use OEM parts (though I recall asking for them). I read that this could also be an issue in one of the other threads about transmissions here on LOST.

Again, thanks for your help!
Author:  geordi [ Wed May 06, 2015 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Start by adding another quart of ATF+4 and see if that changes anything. The dipstick is NOT accurate, it bottoms in the bottom of the pan, so that "low but in range" reading might really be too low. This transmission also seems to like operating with a bit more fluid than seems it should have. I have done several transmission fluid changes where the system took 9 quarts before everything started performing properly, when a "normal" change according to the book is supposed to be 7 quarts.
Author:  sbohner [ Wed May 06, 2015 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
geordi wrote:
Start by adding another quart of ATF+4 and see if that changes anything. The dipstick is NOT accurate, it bottoms in the bottom of the pan, so that "low but in range" reading might really be too low. This transmission also seems to like operating with a bit more fluid than seems it should have. I have done several transmission fluid changes where the system took 9 quarts before everything started performing properly, when a "normal" change according to the book is supposed to be 7 quarts.


Thanks Geordi!

You are confirming what Flash said and what I read in another thread. I think I will give it a try tomorrow.

Again, thanks!
Author:  WWDiesel [ Thu May 07, 2015 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Geordi is correct, add some more ATF+4 fluid!!! I experienced some of the shudder and stalls right after startup a few years back when I first got my CRD Jeep. I added about an extra qt. of ATF+4 and it stopped the problem. :D
A little later, I had my local transmission shop install a Suncoast TC and Transgo kit and replace the front pump assembly while he was in there.
The front pump is a wear item and if your problem continues even after adding additional fluid, you may want to look into having a new front pump installed... :idea:

Those second and third opinions you got were from idiots.... :furious:
Listen to the people on this list, they are your best information source! :wink:
Author:  Montezuma [ Sun May 10, 2015 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
So I maybe having a similar issue with my CRD. Upon start-up my jeep goes through, what I have been told a learning program. It shifts very hard and abruptly for about 30 min and won't engage overdrive. After that time it will shift normally and will go into overdrive. It has thrown a general tcm code( I don't remember the code, overheat i believe.) and when that code is cleared the transmission shifts normal till it throws the code again. A new TCM has been put in place to rule out mine and it still acts up. The jeep did just receive a new transfer case, but I am wondering if it is this hydraulic pump that you guys are talking about, if not, this should be a new thread.
Author:  geordi [ Sun May 10, 2015 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Again - the first solution to strange transmission operation is to add fluid. You can run this transmission with quite a lot of fluid, and it won't hurt anything. This is a HUGE transmission.

Have you tried adding more juice? Any change? When was the last fluid change? The transmission is supposed to be serviced every 40k miles, and the "normal" change of 7 quarts only drains about 1/3 of what the transmission could hold. Some changes could be as much as 9 quarts refilled until the transmission starts behaving normally again.

Have you also completely reset the transmission computer's learning since you changed the computer? The procedure should be in the service manual.
Author:  Montezuma [ Fri May 15, 2015 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
A new TCM fixed my woes.
Author:  sbohner [ Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Unfortunately, I am back again with the same problem after thinking it was solved back in May. It seemed to work properly for a month or so, so I had the line between the transmission fluid cooler and the transmission replaced (ouch - $500+ w/parts and labor). The problem grabbing and stalling at stops signs and such as commenced again. I have tried various additions of oil, but no luck in this fix now. :x

I think that this experience might be telling me something about the problem (beyond potentially opportunistic local auto and transmission repair folks). Here a summary:

1) The transmission started grabbing after a long trip from Indiana to Washington DC and back.
2) Got the AAMCO folks to do a full transmission fluid and filter service (despite request to use OEM filters, they used 3rd party filters) - the grabbing problem persisted. They then found a leak on the transmission fluid cooler. I decided to try the advice from LOST with adding more fluid and it fixed it. :)
3) Given the successful progress, I decided to have someone else install the new transmission fluid lines. This is where the problem returned and adding more fluid didn't seem to help. The shop didn't do internal transmission work, but would gladly install a Jaspers replaced transmission for me. :?
3) So I took it to another (recommended) transmission shop - ALLTRAN. The fellow there indicated that it was an engine problem - and had it sent out to someone to "reset the ECM / TCM." It seemed to work for a couple days then the problem returned. I have taken it back three times to repeat the process (and the folks managed to lose the plastic engine cover - not impressed with my $187 investment to reset the ECM / TCM and loss of my engine cover). :banghead:

My guess is that I have one or more of the following problems:

1) Weak front transmission pump - fluid pressure was measured and found fine, but perhaps it is not uniform in operation.
2) Problems with fluid flow from 3rd party filters, or perhaps some clog in the transmission fluid cooler.
3) Sensor misreadings causing the adaptive portion of the TCM to systematically fall out of sync (when I had the Suncoast torque converter installed, I recall the same grabby situation and when I took it back, they said they had to reset the TCM with the change of TC).
4) TCM might be misbehaving - losing it's programming over time.

Before I head into the dealership to see what they say, I thought I would check with you folks first. What do you think it might be? You folks have been very helpful in the past and I welcome any advice here. Thanks!
Author:  WWDiesel [ Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Most likely the front pump is worn and needs replacing if adding additional oil does not help the problem!
Front pump has some plungers in it in addition to the oil pump gears, that wear out the bores and the plungers and they start to stick in the bore causing some of the symptoms as you described. This is a common problem on both the 45RFE & 545RFE transmissions according to my transmission specialist who installed my Suncoast TC and a new front pump assembly... :banghead:

After the Suncoast TC and new front pump assembly, I have never experienced an engine stall when first starting the CRD and driving a few hundred feet as I did before the upgrades. :rockon:

Note: the addition of additional ATF+4 oil did help this problem before the new parts were installed, but it did not stop it completely... :wink:
Author:  sbohner [ Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
WWDiesel wrote:
Most likely the front pump is worn and needs replacing if adding additional oil does not help the problem!
Front pump has some plungers in it in addition to the oil pump gears, that wear out the bores and the plungers and they start to stick in the bore causing some of the symptoms as you described. This is a common problem on both the 45RFE & 545RFE transmissions according to my transmission specialist who installed my Suncoast TC and a new front pump assembly... :banghead:

After the Suncoast TC and new front pump assembly, I have never experienced an engine stall when first starting the CRD and driving a few hundred feet as I did before the upgrades. :rockon:

Note: the addition of additional ATF+4 oil did help this problem before the new parts were installed, but it did not stop it completely... :wink:


Thanks WWDiesel!

You are confirming my suspicions - I appreciate your insight!
Author:  papaindigo [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
For what it's worth the 545RFE automatic transmission on the CRD is nothing special in that it's a very common DCJ transmission used on a variety of vehicles. The point being that any competent transmission shop can service it. By competent I'm not sure I'd include AAMCO simply because that's a chain and individual shops very in ability (e.g. yours may be good or may not be). I'd definitely stay away from a tranny shop that says the problem is because the engine is not "tuned" properly for obvious reasons or any place who blindly wants to sell you a new tranny.

Thoughts:
1. drop by your local DCJ dealer and see what codes they can pull with a DCJ code reader alternatively a really good tranny shop should have an equivalent code reader. Point being both the 05 and 06 KJs are a bit picky about what code readers will work and are capable of pulling tranny codes. Depending on codes go from there.
2. just a reminder that this tranny does not "like" any fluid but ATF+4 and that more is better than less (over the full line is good/under the full line is bad). Second reminder - tranny cooler is in the bottom of the AC condenser and the most common leak points are the disconnect fittings which can be cleaned and replaced or replaced with solid fittings - leaks in the cooler itself can be "fixed" by cutting the OEM cooler out of the loop and replacing it with an after market cooler - line replacement is not needed unless the line itself is leaking and even then can sometimes be cured by cutting out a bad section and replacing it with appropriate high pressure hose.
3. rumble strip feeling going uphill sounds like torque converter shudder. If it happens again IMMEDIATELY drop it out of over drive by pressing the shift column button. If feeling goes away it's shudder. If you are not in overdrive manually down shift.
4. no name filters can cause problems. Have no clue what AAMCO used but would be good to find out. Even good filters can split (flat filter) or come loose but I don't think that would cause your symptoms. Good filters I know of are OEM, WIX, NAPA, and probably others that I don't know of.
5. from here I'm speculating a bit as I'm not an automatic transmission expert but pending codes (#1 above) I'd look at tranny clutch packs and the tranny pump. If it's the pump then replace with 2n gen pump and while you are in that far I'd drop in a Euro torque converter and the valve body parts from the transgo kit.
Author:  sbohner [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Abrupt transmission engagement after stop
Thanks PapaIndigo!

This is really helpful information. I wish I knew about a good transmission place in mid-western Indiana (off I-70). I will keep my ear open for one through friends - the two I have tried here have not been encouraging with the results so far.

Again, thanks!

papaindigo wrote:
For what it's worth the 545RFE automatic transmission on the CRD is nothing special in that it's a very common DCJ transmission used on a variety of vehicles. The point being that any competent transmission shop can service it. By competent I'm not sure I'd include AAMCO simply because that's a chain and individual shops very in ability (e.g. yours may be good or may not be). I'd definitely stay away from a tranny shop that says the problem is because the engine is not "tuned" properly for obvious reasons or any place who blindly wants to sell you a new tranny.

Thoughts:
1. drop by your local DCJ dealer and see what codes they can pull with a DCJ code reader alternatively a really good tranny shop should have an equivalent code reader. Point being both the 05 and 06 KJs are a bit picky about what code readers will work and are capable of pulling tranny codes. Depending on codes go from there.
2. just a reminder that this tranny does not "like" any fluid but ATF+4 and that more is better than less (over the full line is good/under the full line is bad). Second reminder - tranny cooler is in the bottom of the AC condenser and the most common leak points are the disconnect fittings which can be cleaned and replaced or replaced with solid fittings - leaks in the cooler itself can be "fixed" by cutting the OEM cooler out of the loop and replacing it with an after market cooler - line replacement is not needed unless the line itself is leaking and even then can sometimes be cured by cutting out a bad section and replacing it with appropriate high pressure hose.
3. rumble strip feeling going uphill sounds like torque converter shudder. If it happens again IMMEDIATELY drop it out of over drive by pressing the shift column button. If feeling goes away it's shudder. If you are not in overdrive manually down shift.
4. no name filters can cause problems. Have no clue what AAMCO used but would be good to find out. Even good filters can split (flat filter) or come loose but I don't think that would cause your symptoms. Good filters I know of are OEM, WIX, NAPA, and probably others that I don't know of.
5. from here I'm speculating a bit as I'm not an automatic transmission expert but pending codes (#1 above) I'd look at tranny clutch packs and the tranny pump. If it's the pump then replace with 2n gen pump and while you are in that far I'd drop in a Euro torque converter and the valve body parts from the transgo kit.
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