Thrown a piston rod(?)

Kurt-06-CRD · **Joined:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:55 pm **Posts:** 28

-Here is my latest thinking and a question for y'all.

I can have the head removed and 1) verify the damage is or is not in the cylinder/crankcase...2) Determine the exact problem so solutions can be thought out.

If I do so, what can any of you do to rebuild this with collected parts from other cars? I imagine this will still be a few thousand bucks but less than $6,000 - $8,000? My wife (its her car) wants to fix it if at all possible. The aggravation of all this is that she takes perfect care of the car but doesn't baby it at the same time.

Geordi, what can you do to help if we bring the car to Savannah?

Thanks,

Kurt
706-980-8536

Mike92104 · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2015 8:11 pm

Kurt-06-CRD wrote:

-Here is my latest thinking and a question for y'all.

I can have the head removed and 1) verify the damage is or is not in the cylinder/crankcase...2) Determine the exact problem so solutions can be thought out.

If I do so, what can any of you do to rebuild this with collected parts from other cars? I imagine this will still be a few thousand bucks but less than $6,000 - $8,000? My wife (its her car) wants to fix it if at all possible. The aggravation of all this is that she takes perfect care of the car but doesn't baby it at the same time.

Geordi, what can you do to help if we bring the car to Savannah?

Thanks,

Kurt
706-980-8536

It's an afternoon's work to pull the head yourself (you really don't even need to go that far). You could confirm if there are broken rockers by "just" removing the intake manifold. Bottom end issues are rare, and are usually preceded by a blown turbo. There's a REALLY good chance you could get it back on the road with just a new set of rockers, but you might as well do a timing belt job while you're there (it has to come off anyway).

If you're willing/able to do the work yourself, it costs nothing to see how bad it is.

Here's another way to check rockers before taking it apart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uMv4zLtBzM

You can also just grab the intake hose (between the intercooler and intake) while it's running and feel for any pulses that are in time with the noise.

Mike

rankom · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2015 8:40 pm

before you pull cylinder head , why not troubleshoot code p 0304 which you have?

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

p0304 is misfire in cylinder #4. We have seen a few engines with dropped valves in cylinder #4. The noise you here and that code may point to this issue. You will need new parts to fix it and an engine pull. Best case, 1 liner, ring pack, both rod end bearings, piston, injector and cylinder head. Worst case, add in a crank, con rod and maybe an entire long block. If you can pull the intake, the picture will be very clear.

Kurt-06-CRD · **Joined:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:55 pm **Posts:** 28

I started by unplugging the injector on the rear cylinder, which I assume is #4. The car would not start so I did the same on other cylinders. The second one back (I assume is #2) is the only one which let's the engine start when unplugged. The noise was still there with injector unplugged and got much louder when plugged in. The noise is not the tapping noise from a valve or rocker, it is a noise you can feel with your hand on the motor. I played Giordi's video, much much worse noise than that.

rankom · **Posted:** Thu May 14, 2015 7:48 pm

to test injectors you need to do , fuel return flow test , also you can cap fuel delivery line , like we do on cummins engine ,or remove and send injectors to diesel fuel shop for testing

geordi · **Posted:** Fri May 15, 2015 2:07 am

Hey Kurt, sorry I haven't replied sooner. I'm in the midst of another CRD trip at the moment, but I will try and gather my thoughts for you tomorrow.

The short version is this:

Your CRD might still have broken rockers, they will make the engine sound VERY strange on occasion b/c of the improper combustion events. It really doesn't definitively say yes or no just because your CRD sounds worse than the video with just 2 broken rockers. Really, we won't know ANYTHING until the top is taken off.

As far as the injectors go, they have been very stable performers in my experience, but there is a good chance your local Bosch shop will be able to test them properly. Look for a "diesel injection service" type of business name in the area of town where the big trucks hang out. There will usually be one.

I personally haven't pulled the whole block and torn one down beyond the head gasket with any designs on rebuilding it - I have only disassembled my original motor before scrapping it - the idiot mechanic left it sitting out in the rain for 3 months while "working" on my CRD, and ruined the motor that I had told them specifically that I wanted to rebuild it. Morons.

So I don't know what kind of timeframe it would be like to attempt anything with yours, IF the top of the motor looked pristine. But either way, the first step is to break it down to the rockers. You don't need to worry about protecting the timing just for a disassembly, and placing the bolts back into each item as it is removed will make keeping the bolts organized much easier. The only other thing is to label the wires and the injectors as they are removed - They ARE SPECIFIC and the #4 wire is also possible to accidently swap with the fuel sensor, so that is why it needs to be tagged. Other than that... Have at it, and let us know what you find. I'm only a phone call / message / or drive away if you get stuck.

rankom · **Posted:** Sat May 16, 2015 3:59 pm

hi kurt . have you pulled injectors and visually inspect injector tips for damage. are the pistons inside cylinders or if any damage, keep us updated . because i had a very similar noise , engine almost blow up and it was injector# 1 causing hydraulic fuel knock due to excessive fuel in cylinder #1 good luck with repairs

Hexus · **Posted:** Sun May 17, 2015 11:31 am

I have spoken with him and am willing to either loan him the tools to remove the top end or work on it myself if needed to ascertain if the problem is in the top end.

I'm VERY comfortable on the top end, not so much on the bottom end. But, at least we might be able to delve into it and see if the problem is rocker related or lower.

If I do this one, I'll do some type of pictorial write up to go with it, to benefit everyone going forward. Either way, we'll let everyone know.

rankom · **Posted:** Sun May 17, 2015 11:55 am

very good idea , start disassembling top end ,label injectors location , hope you don't see any broken parts if so , then you know you be visiting bosh fuel injection specialist

Kurt-06-CRD · **Joined:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:55 pm **Posts:** 28

It will be a week or two before I get deep enough to know anything. I will keep you all up to date.

Thank you,

Kurt

geordi · **Posted:** Sun May 17, 2015 1:39 pm

Hexus is like me, I'm extremely familiar with the top end, but no knowledge of rebuilding the bottom. I'd be surprised about a bottom end issue though, those are thankfully pretty rare.

senatorjohn · **Posted:** Mon May 18, 2015 7:52 am

Hi Kurt.
A CRD I bought would rotate only from about 40 degrees BTDC to 50 deg. BTDC. Did not know if it was top or bottom end problem. Dropped the front mounting cradle and sump to discover plenty of shrapnel in the sump. A valve had been punched through the piston. Debris in the cylinder and some caught between the rod, crankshaft and cylinder block is apparently blocking the rotation of the engine. Initially thought the problem was with a connecting rod coming loose and despite the lack of any firm evidence, decided to drop the sump since to me this is less tricky than removing the rocker cover and the associated bits that need to come off. If the engine rotates freely, rods are still in place.
Sounds very likely your problem is with the top end. Does the noise disappear if you run the engine with one or two injectors disabled? (Have read most of your posts but forget some of the info)
John

Kurt-06-CRD · **Joined:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:55 pm **Posts:** 28

Noise gets softer with #2 injector unplugged but gets much worse when plugged in again. I am pretty certain this is the problem cylinder since this is the only injector when unplugged will allow the engine to start.
I just don't know but will tear down the top end to see just what's going on.

Kurt-06-CRD · **Joined:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:55 pm **Posts:** 28

Hi everyone, sorry for the long period of silence.

The Jeep is still in our driveway awaiting some attention. We got another car for my wife and just didn't get back to the Jeep.
So far, I am thinking of a valve problem, here is why.
I have a theory that a valve keeper broke loose and allowed the valve to drop into the cylinder but not completely out.

When started, the piston pushes it up each time it comes up making the horrible noise that sounds like a crankcase problem, the noise is probably piston slapping from hitting the valve. So far the engine has only run 2 or 3 minutes, I am hopeful no valve guide or piston damage has happened.

Any thoughts on this? I hope to get the cylinder head off in the next two weeks. I will keep you posted.

Thanks again for all your input.

Kurt

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:46 pm

PM sent

lacabrera · **Posted:** Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:06 pm

I would not start it again? If its a broken or cracked piston it wont take long to depart from the rod and send it through the block. All the time the block is ok it can be repaired. Damaged block = replacement engine.

Kurt-06-CRD · **Joined:** Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:55 pm **Posts:** 28

Finally got it apart and, as most predicted, I found a broken rocker. All other rockers have at least 0.050" clearance on the rollers.

Where have y'all bought new rockers? Dealer price is eztreme.

Thanks to all...

Kurt

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:14 am

IDparts.com has all the parts you will need. Do you have the timing tools? I would caution against re-using a used belt, but you will want to partially re-assemble to a startable motor (timing section and top of the engine reassembled) and do a test-fire before putting everything back into the engine. It would suck mightily to have to remove everything again if the noise isn't resolved.

Unfortunately, that is the situation I am in with my CRD at the moment, it sounds terrible and it doesn't appear to be the rockers. I am still investigating.

pjigar · **Posted:** Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:49 pm

You mentioned that you have been doing oils changes regularly. What kind of oil are you using? May be incorrect oil didn't lubricate the rockers properly. Rockers are splash lubricated so good oil is essential. I just opened valve cover on my Libby (93K miles) for ARP head stud installation and every rocker in my libby had perfect roller without any play. I am going to install all new rockers anyway.

Thrown a piston rod(?)

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