LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Lots of soot at altitude.

I live at 7000 feet and I just failed my emissions test. I'm blowing 39% opacity smoke with an EcoTune. The guys at the shop are blaming the tune since my HP is higher than the other Jeep's they test. Guess I'll contact GDE and see what they think.

silence wrote:

I'd bet it's more likely that you have a dirty map, clogged intake, dirty filter, or maybe an injector that needs work, to name a few.

Mass-hole
that's a yes for me, all of my higher altitude time is with the Ecotune

We would expect lower soot running any of the GDE tunes in altitude, these are the typical results from most users. Is the test just a free acceleration in neutral or a drive cycle on a rolls bench?

There is a pressure sensor in the ecm that lowers the boost setpoint as the altitude increases. It is fairly linear up to 3500 meters. During altitude testing we had to drop the boost to a point that limited turbo speed to under 180,000rpm.

If you can measure the MAF at idle and compare to other folks at similar altitudes it can help diagnose a potential worn rocker arm issue.

well, if you need rockers, maybe you could catch Geordi on his Westbound trip, and you might as well do ARP's before the gasket goes anyhow.

How many miles with the GDE tune? We have seen wasted rockers on engines with 80,000 miles.

The MAF is only used to control egr flow. But it still measures flow if plugged in and a good sensor. The flow is good for diagnostic purposes only. 18 gr/sec is a good flow rate with new rockers at idle in park. We have seen engines below 15 gr/sec and the rockers were shot.

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

So my maf has not functioned for a long time. I had it unplugged for a while when I first bought the jeep before I could block the EGR or buy a tune. Once I plugged it back in after i installed the block plate I was getting a CEL related to the maf and Torque would report the MAF as 18 CFM(i think, maybe it was g/sec) constant no matter where the throttle was positioned. I still have a code coming up if I do a scan, but with the tune I am not getting a CEL anymore. I was under the impression that the MAF was only for the EGR function so i was ignoring it. I also was not sure if it was the sensor itself so I didnt wanna pay to swap it out and find out that was not the issue.

The weird thing is that the Jeep was fine until I got out here. I towed it on a trailer behind a Penske truck so I didnt get a feel for it as I drove out west. I just drove it at 300 ft ASL and then 6000 ft ASL 5 days later.

Author:	mass-hole [ Tue May 26, 2015 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Lots of soot at altitude.
I am living at >6000 ft asl and am getting a Lot of smoke at wot. Is this typical because the turbo can't provide enough boost at this altitude or should I be worried about something else. I've noticed a pretty big drop in power since I got here.

Author:	Mountainman [ Tue May 26, 2015 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
I bet a 6000ft increase would be noticeable even with a turbo. I don't notice where I lived around 4k when I go to 6-7k though. I don't have any room to WOT where I go so can't comment on the amount of smoke (remote windy, terrible roads).

Author:	ATXKJ [ Tue May 26, 2015 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
Mine's been to the top of Pike's Peak several times - no soot and no noticeable power loss even Colorado Springs is > 8000 feet - and it was running great there

Author:	flash7210 [ Tue May 26, 2015 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
Back in december when I did a cross country trip, I crossed a few 6000ft and 7000ft mountain passes through the Rockies and the Sierras. Cant say I noticed any lack of power though. But I was just trying to drive safely. What I did notice is that while monitoring my MAP sensor (at idle) with TorquePro, my MAP sensor was showing about 2-3 inches of vacuum at about 4000ft elevation. Here in FL, at sea level, my idle MAP reading is 0.5-1 psi.

Author:	ShaqDiesel [ Tue May 26, 2015 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
I did a road trip from Seattle to Kentucky and back last September. I noticed very minimal, if any power and mpg loss over higher altitudes, and have numbers to back up the mpg stat. This included the Rockies (twice), Yosemite, Yellowstone, and other parts of Wyoming/Montana. My routes were mostly transitory, so I wasn't in one place for too long. Hope this gives you some insight.

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Author:	mass-hole [ Wed May 27, 2015 11:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
Were all of you on GDE tunes at that point? I was wondering if he had to dial the boost back since he was pushing the turbos too its limits at sea level, so at altitude it would overspin.

Author:	silence [ Wed May 27, 2015 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
I live at 7000 feet and I just failed my emissions test. I'm blowing 39% opacity smoke with an EcoTune. The guys at the shop are blaming the tune since my HP is higher than the other Jeep's they test. Guess I'll contact GDE and see what they think.

Author:	Mountainman [ Wed May 27, 2015 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
silence wrote: I live at 7000 feet and I just failed my emissions test. I'm blowing 39% opacity smoke with an EcoTune. The guys at the shop are blaming the tune since my HP is higher than the other Jeep's they test. Guess I'll contact GDE and see what they think. I'd bet it's more likely that you have a dirty map, clogged intake, dirty filter, or maybe an injector that needs work, to name a few. Mass-hole that's a yes for me, all of my higher altitude time is with the Ecotune

Author:	mass-hole [ Wed May 27, 2015 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
Mountainman wrote: silence wrote: I live at 7000 feet and I just failed my emissions test. I'm blowing 39% opacity smoke with an EcoTune. The guys at the shop are blaming the tune since my HP is higher than the other Jeep's they test. Guess I'll contact GDE and see what they think. I'd bet it's more likely that you have a dirty map, clogged intake, dirty filter, or maybe an injector that needs work, to name a few. Mass-hole that's a yes for me, all of my higher altitude time is with the Ecotune I am on the Hot Tune. I am going to try to log my boost with Torque App. I know it would peak around 21psi back in Massachusetts at 300 foot asl so I wanna see if its lower here. Back there I got almost zero smoke and the jeep was noticeably quicker and WOT. part throttle it seems around the same as it used to be. The filter should be ok. I cleaned it not too long ago and it has only been driven 3-4000 miles in the last 6 months.

Author:	Mountainman [ Wed May 27, 2015 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
hmm, full torque. I hope Keith chimes in because I was thinking about a full torque, but I drive a lot at high altitude. Maybe the program needs tweaked for high elevation? I'd message gde

Author:	Auberon [ Wed May 27, 2015 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
2 numbers would be very telling in your situations - measured boost maximum we can look at the amount of available oxygen and---- this one particularly you should, I'd reckon, be able to do with a smartphone - and Torquepro - the MAF in g/sec. This should be very useful. Trying to pick on the achievable / quantifiable . Cheers

Author:	GreenDieselEngineering [ Thu May 28, 2015 9:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
We would expect lower soot running any of the GDE tunes in altitude, these are the typical results from most users. Is the test just a free acceleration in neutral or a drive cycle on a rolls bench? There is a pressure sensor in the ecm that lowers the boost setpoint as the altitude increases. It is fairly linear up to 3500 meters. During altitude testing we had to drop the boost to a point that limited turbo speed to under 180,000rpm. If you can measure the MAF at idle and compare to other folks at similar altitudes it can help diagnose a potential worn rocker arm issue.

Author:	mass-hole [ Thu May 28, 2015 11:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
GreenDieselEngineering wrote: We would expect lower soot running any of the GDE tunes in altitude, these are the typical results from most users. Is the test just a free acceleration in neutral or a drive cycle on a rolls bench? There is a pressure sensor in the ecm that lowers the boost setpoint as the altitude increases. It is fairly linear up to 3500 meters. During altitude testing we had to drop the boost to a point that limited turbo speed to under 180,000rpm. If you can measure the MAF at idle and compare to other folks at similar altitudes it can help diagnose a potential worn rocker arm issue. So my maf has not functioned for a long time. I had it unplugged for a while when I first bought the jeep before I could block the EGR or buy a tune. Once I plugged it back in after i installed the block plate I was getting a CEL related to the maf and Torque would report the MAF as 18 CFM(i think, maybe it was g/sec) constant no matter where the throttle was positioned. I still have a code coming up if I do a scan, but with the tune I am not getting a CEL anymore. I was under the impression that the MAF was only for the EGR function so i was ignoring it. I also was not sure if it was the sensor itself so I didnt wanna pay to swap it out and find out that was not the issue. The weird thing is that the Jeep was fine until I got out here. I towed it on a trailer behind a Penske truck so I didnt get a feel for it as I drove out west. I just drove it at 300 ft ASL and then 6000 ft ASL 5 days later.

Author:	Mountainman [ Thu May 28, 2015 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
well, if you need rockers, maybe you could catch Geordi on his Westbound trip, and you might as well do ARP's before the gasket goes anyhow.

Author:	Mountainman [ Fri May 29, 2015 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
I know there has been a theory of a possible bad batch of rockers, but I'm more inclined to think that the early digested rockers has more to do with less frequent oil changes, the wrong oil being used (like a tech at dealership putting in non TD oil or conventional oil) or hyper active EGR's on some vehicles (maybe do to a dirty MAP, or bad MAF sensor) or something similar. Just think how many people go to walmart or jiffy lube and the tech who is rushed to do the job just puts in whatever oil he think is ok, because almost every other vehicle out there would be find with 10-30 conventional or 5-40 synthetic (non TD). Or maybe rockers wouldn't be the first to suffer? I bet with those premature oil changes that you've done that your rockers are like new.

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Author:	mass-hole [ Thu May 28, 2015 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
Mountainman wrote: well, if you need rockers, maybe you could catch Geordi on his Westbound trip, and you might as well do ARP's before the gasket goes anyhow. I am actually thinking I am going to do the timing belt myself as soon as I get settled into my new house with my 3 bay garage . ARP studs, gasket, lift pump, and possibly a nice intake manifold cleaning were also on the list while i was in there so if the rockers do need replacing I can just do that too. Also, I would be a little pissed if I needed rockers because I bought the jeep with 40k miles and had an EGR block plate on by 42k and change my oil religiously at 5k miles with Rotella T6 or Mobil1 Turbo diesel truck. It only has 71k on it now.

Author:	mass-hole [ Thu May 28, 2015 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
GreenDieselEngineering wrote: How many miles with the GDE tune? We have seen wasted rockers on engines with 80,000 miles. The MAF is only used to control egr flow. But it still measures flow if plugged in and a good sensor. The flow is good for diagnostic purposes only. 18 gr/sec is a good flow rate with new rockers at idle in park. We have seen engines below 15 gr/sec and the rockers were shot. I wanna say it was around 55000 when i got the tune and its around 71-72000 now.

Author:	Yeti [ Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
mass-hole wrote: GreenDieselEngineering wrote: We would expect lower soot running any of the GDE tunes in altitude, these are the typical results from most users. Is the test just a free acceleration in neutral or a drive cycle on a rolls bench? There is a pressure sensor in the ecm that lowers the boost setpoint as the altitude increases. It is fairly linear up to 3500 meters. During altitude testing we had to drop the boost to a point that limited turbo speed to under 180,000rpm. If you can measure the MAF at idle and compare to other folks at similar altitudes it can help diagnose a potential worn rocker arm issue. So my maf has not functioned for a long time. I had it unplugged for a while when I first bought the jeep before I could block the EGR or buy a tune. Once I plugged it back in after i installed the block plate I was getting a CEL related to the maf and Torque would report the MAF as 18 CFM(i think, maybe it was g/sec) constant no matter where the throttle was positioned. I still have a code coming up if I do a scan, but with the tune I am not getting a CEL anymore. I was under the impression that the MAF was only for the EGR function so i was ignoring it. I also was not sure if it was the sensor itself so I didnt wanna pay to swap it out and find out that was not the issue. The weird thing is that the Jeep was fine until I got out here. I towed it on a trailer behind a Penske truck so I didnt get a feel for it as I drove out west. I just drove it at 300 ft ASL and then 6000 ft ASL 5 days later. if you read always 18 g/s I think your maf is dead , i live at 1500 mt on the sea level and my maf read 15-16 g/s at this altitude with a barometric pressure of 83-87 kpa and 17-18 g/s at 98 kpa and the value change with a throttle position , the maf is used to regulate the fuel quantity together the MAP reading , unplug your maf and see if the power return ....with a little smoke , I think your problem is only maf related

Author:	mass-hole [ Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Lots of soot at altitude.
So I used torque to monitor boost and it was peaking around 15psi and dropping as the RPM's rose beyond 3k rpm. I wasnt able to get a good log but 15psi was about the most I would see at WOT.