Valve. The other other white meat.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:35 pm

racertracer wrote:

I suspect it was a broken ceramic glow plug tip flying around the chamber snapping valves.

And Jim..... you're wimping out.

Hey now - I was ready to do whatever on yours. But that list was all things that I have experience with. Can you blame me for being hesitant about doing something for the first time on a truck that I do not own? It isn't fair to the owner for me to learn on their dime, that is what we squawk about dealerships doing.

Then there is the simple reality: I don't have the facility here in Savannah to pull a block. You haven't seen my place, and even Papaindigo hasn't seen where I moved to (it isn't much different from where he did see) but it isn't paved. I have a deck and an enormous lawn area and a gravel driveway... Not capable of using an engine hoist, it would sink into the dirt.

But your guess about the glow plug - it is as fair a guess as any other about what caused the valve damage. If that is the underlying cause though... (I don't know which plugs this has, I will pull them tomorrow and look when I am poking around more) If that is what potentially happened... Ceramic plugs are GONE from anything I own! The level of carnage here is unbelieveable.

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:26 am

How many miles on the engine?

The worse thing you can do to this engine is:

1. Not change the oil on a regular basis.
2. Keeping the old ceramic glow plugs in place.
3. Permitting the hot EGR gasses to flow in.
$. Not keeping to the scheduled maintenance.

taroo · **Joined:** Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:14 pm **Posts:** 276

racertracer wrote:

How many miles on the engine?

The worse thing you can do to this engine is:

1. Not change the oil on a regular basis.
2. Keeping the old ceramic glow plugs in place.
3. Permitting the hot EGR gasses to flow in.
$. Not keeping to the scheduled maintenance.

Okay....tell me why keeping the ceramic plugs is #2 on your list. I live in Virginia, they rarely come on for more than a fraction of a second. Are you saying that they can physically break and cause problems?

DarbyWalters · **Posted:** Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:29 am

taroo wrote:

racertracer wrote:

How many miles on the engine?

The worse thing you can do to this engine is:

1. Not change the oil on a regular basis.
2. Keeping the old ceramic glow plugs in place.
3. Permitting the hot EGR gasses to flow in.
$. Not keeping to the scheduled maintenance.

Okay....tell me why keeping the ceramic plugs is #2 on your list. I live in Virginia, they rarely come on for more than a fraction of a second. Are you saying that they can physically break and cause problems?

Yes they can and do. My CRD ate a glowplug at 8800 miles...Jeep installed a whole new engine back in the day...including turbo etc. It still has the ceramics in place at 172,000 miles...but it can happen.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:39 am

taroo as Darby notes they can and do break. As to how long yours are on in Virginia winter best I can say is the duration of the glow plug light in the cluster has little or no relation to the glow plug duty cycle until ambient temps get down to ca. 15F and may not even then (I've not noticed any difference down to the mid 20sF). In any case check out page 8I-25 of the 06 FSM for the glow plug cycle based on temp. Note they always cycle at startup even when it's hot outside.

Whether or not they should be consider a preventive maintenance item is up to the owner. All I'll say is mine and my son's ceramics were replaced with metal ones a while back. That said forum chat seems to suggest that the ceramics are ok until you get a CEL for a bad ceramic plug at which point all 4 ceramics should be replaced like right now.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:25 pm

I took another look at it today, while still waiting to talk to the owner who was also out of town for the weekend.

The crankshaft may be damaged. It will not rotate AT ALL in any direction. Totally frozen, and that includes smacking the pistons with a mallet to try and shift them even a little. What I did see - strangely enough - was that the #4 piston "rocked" from side to side slightly. This strongly suggests that the crown of the piston is no longer joined to the underside. I have no idea how this could have happened either. I don't know if the block is even capable of being rebuilt at this point... It seems to be leaning more toward just total scrap metal. Certainly it can't be salvaged without coming out of the body.

As for the glow plugs - they were ceramic. The #4 is completely gone, as might be expected b/c of the damage to the underside of the head. The #3 is sheared in half lengthwise - no idea where the other half is, but the piston looked OK. The #2 is cracked in a couple directions but still the proper shape, and the #1 plug is the only one that didn't seem to be damaged in any way.

If this is what happens when a ceramic glow plug breaks... Yow. They are all gone from anything I own, I would rather have "hard to start in cold" as a result, rather than "completely destroyed!" as an option.

olypopper · **Posted:** Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:24 pm

What do I win for my wager of carnage??? Just kidding, that sucks. A lot of work to fix that animal.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:12 pm

I suspect that the wobble in the #4 piston is due to a bent wrist pin. With all those valves mashed into the piston something else had to give.
If you could turn the crank and move the piston down I'm sure you would see a lot of scuffing in the bore. This could also be the reason why the crank won't turn, the piston skirt is jammed up in the bore.

Without a doubt, engine has to be pulled. Oil pan must come off and balance shafts removed. Pistons and rods pushed out and crank removed.
Unless the block is cracked it should be reusable.

KC-CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:20 pm **Posts:** 47

The $7k I was quoted by DCJ for a new motor was installed, in the bed of my truck with a forklift.

They'd probably want another $3k to actually put it in a jeep.

From Mopar.com

ENGINE Complete
Notes: NOTES: Sales Codes [DBB] = All Manual Transmissions [DG0] = All Automatic Transmissions [EN0] = All 4/5 Cylinder Turbo Diesels
Part Number: R3014014AC
Engine: EN0
Part Info:
Remanufactured Long Block
Suggested Qty: 1
Transmission: DG0

$6220

I see they are now listing a reman rather than new. I thought I verified new, but I could be mistaken. Note that your local stealership isn't going to give it to you at that price. 12 month limited warranty. You'll have to call your parts guy and have them research what parts are included. From memory, I think it was complete with the exception of the oil pan. EGR was included as well as injectors, glowplugs, and injection pump. I can't remember on the turbo. The core has to be compete and rebuildable. I'd be curious who is doing their rebuilding. A good rebuild could be as good as new one because they are measuring everything to see what parts need replaced, but it depends on the builder.

If you could talk them into selling you the export version (RX170766AA) it's only $3400.

On the piston wobble, damaged liner or piston skirt. And you could reuse the other 3 pistons with new liners if you mic them and make sure they are still in tolerance. The crank could be locked due to piston/liner damage on #4. Or if that is rust on the other cylinders it could be a piston frozen to a liner by rust.

And yah, the motor should be pulled. I know people who do replace pistons without removing the engine, but it's a lot harder and bypasses all the lower end work that probably should be done. I forget how many miles were on this, but with all the money going into the top end it would be a shame to wash a bunch of dirt into the bottom and end up ruining the crank in a few k miles.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:28 pm

IT LIVES!!!! :frankie:

With nary a cough or sputter, it rumbled into life after just about 9 hours of reassembly and a grand total of 23 hours for me and 4 hours for the guy who had the block R/R job.

It was smoking like a train at idle for about 10-15 minutes of operation as all the cleaning fluids worked their way out of the system, but it rose to proper temperature and ran nice and smooth down the road.

Now - the last thing that needs to be addressed is the AC that had to be drained to swap the blocks. The electric fan comes on at full blast when you start the engine (this is odd because when you pull the LOW fan relay, the fan slows down) and doesn't seem to matter if the AC is on or off. The compressor won't engage however, even though I have one can of gas in it. Yes, I vacuumed the system first and ensured there weren't any leaks - there was one that I fixed.

So... Thoughts? Why is the fan running full blast, even with the engine off but key on? With the engine off, it ran the fan for about 3-4 minutes, then powered that down to low speed first, then all the way off. It did this while I was clearing codes and prepping to reprogram the computer. I am at a loss to explain this behavior.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:33 pm

There might be a problem with one or both of the AC pressure switches which is causing the electric fan to come on.

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:00 pm

Jim,

What was the problem with it?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:28 pm

racertracer wrote:

Jim,

What was the problem with it?

Read through the thread - this is the one owned by a member of the forum here, that had a botched timing job that lasted for about 200 miles. It quit at speed, and was brought back to the timing guy who promptly decided that it was a fueling issue and threw up his hands. It was taken (still able to rotate at this point!) to a dealership, and in the course of doing not much of anything helpful, the engine ceased to rotate at all. It had swallowed 3 of the 4 valves in the #4 cylinder and embedded them in the top of the piston and the bottom of the head. Much carnage. It then sat for 2 years until the owner brought it to me.

I strongly suspect that the chimpanzees at the dealership unloaded half a can of ether down the intake and that is what blew it up.

It has now received a full engine replacement, and the teardown of the wrecked block can commence once this CRD is out of here. My own CRD is still sitting waiting for me to get back to it.

CGman · **Posted:** Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:40 pm

paging Dr. Geordi

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:18 am

ALL DONE!

So the electric fan may or may not have been an issue, but I am leaning toward it just being a response to the compressor switch being on and the AC being used - even though the computer wasn't turning on the compressor.

I pulled the relays and hotwired the compressor's relay pin to the same pin for the non-existent fuel priming pump. That way, the compressor would only be on when the engine was running. Yes, it would engage the compressor as soon as you went to start the engine, but I figured that was a minor concern at the moment, just during troubleshooting. It also allowed me to get the compressor running so I could finish charging up the AC system.

Drove the thing around all day today, and every time I stopped somewhere (running errands) I could smell ozone. I think that was actually the brakes burning off glaze from not being used for over 2 years. The power steering also drank down about half a quart, and I had to top off the coolant (but that was expected as it burps) and finally the water-in-fuel light went off. Then I got an oil pressure light. *sigh* Bought a new sensor and changed that... Everything seems good...

No more lights on the dash! I plugged the AC relay back in the way it is supposed to be, and everything functions as expected - I guess the high limit switch or the low switch was stuck from also not running for so long. Oh, and the fuel gauge went from full to half a tank in just 30 miles of running around... I think that it must have been stuck too.

I'm going to run errands in it tomorrow just to ensure everything is all sloshed around and loosened up again, but since it isn't smelling anymore and still sounds and runs nice and smooth... I think this saga might just be closing. The owner isn't getting the cheapest engine replacement, but with ALL the mods done now except for Samcos or the GDE turbo, I think this CRD might just be OK for another few hundred thousand miles.

KC-CRD · **Joined:** Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:20 pm **Posts:** 47

On the AC, it's likely the low pressure switch was keeping the compressor from engaging. It's normal to have to bypass the low pressure switch when you are recharging a system that has been opened. If the pressure is low the compressor will short-cycle, but if it gets too low it will not engage at all. That is to protect the compressor from overheating. I generally just apply 12v to the clutch to force it to engage (while I am adding freon) until I get sufficient pressure in the system.

lacabrera · **Posted:** Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:24 pm

geordi wrote:

I'm working on a CRD right now in Savannah, first time in a long while that I'm actually able to say I am IN Savannah - and of course it is about 30 degrees cooler than the surface of the sun during the day. Woo wee it is hot.

This CRD has the usual story - had the timing belt done by "a mechanic" with no info about whether they knew what they were doing or not. I suspect it was a mark-and-pray type of job. The CRD drove away from the work, and drove for about 100-200 miles or so... Then stopped dead at speed. I don't know what speed or the circumstances, but my suspicion was that it was fairly sudden and without any noticeable cataclysm to be remembered easily.

The CRD refused to restart, and was towed back to the mechanic. At some point he decided it was a fuel-related problem and threw up his hands and gave up. The CRD was then pulled to a dealership. At this point, the scenario becomes a little fuzzy for me. The thing still refused to start from what I understand, but it did rotate. Then at some point it stopped even wanting to rotate, and since the dealership also was unable to do anything for any reasonable cost or expectation of success (typical) the CRD was recovered and sat for the next 2 years in a driveway.

Fast forward to today - I start tearing it down and get to the timing belt, and try to bar it over from the crankshaft. No dice. Try to go backwards... Get about 1/4 inch of rotation. Seriously, that was it. Back forward - maybe it was just stuck from corrosion... Nope. Zilch, except that 1/4 inch. This sucker is jammed tight on something.

#1, #2, #3 injectors all come out by hand and easily... OF COURSE the bugger is the #4. It came out finally (still by hand!) and what do I see? Smashed injector tip. It looks like it was dropped or whacked with a hammer pretty good.

Pull the valve cover and (no shock) I find 4 broken rockers on the intake side - one BADLY trashed lifter on the #2 cylinder... And the #4 last intake valve stem is 1 inch taller than all the others. Uh-oh.

The valve stem pulls out cleanly from the hole, and seems to have just sheared off square with the stem. Obviously the valve is what has jammed the motor, I *really* hope it did this while the engine was just being turned by the starter - I think that is plausible b/c otherwise the rest of the intake rockers should be broken, right?

I won't know more until the head is pulled, which absolutely has to happen now (bugger), but I'm hopeful that the piston isn't trashed. Why would this happen? This is at least the 5th one I've heard about swallowing a valve. Is this another design issue we need to address, or just a statistical probability coming to fruition?

geordi did you ever trace the cause. Just it sounds like a slipped cam sprocket after a cam belt change?

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:20 pm

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:07 pm

Lacabrera and Racer - the rest of the thread details the discovery of the carnage, and the subsequent removal of the block from the vehicle. It has now gotten a full engine replacement and it is running great again.

I haven't had a chance to try tearing down that block (maybe this weekend?) but right now, my suspicion is that the dealership monkeys may have unloaded a significant amount of a can of ether into the intake, and that caused the engine to "run" but with the buggered timing it wasn't correct OR controllable... And then the valve dropped. And that valve took out valve #2. And valve #1 and #2 took out valve #3... By this point, the banging had to be quite severe, and the results are shown in the pictures - total devastation. I don't know yet why the piston is locked in place, but I suspect it may be a bent rocker because one of the valves was jammed edge-up into the top of the piston, and that wouldn't have been well received by the rod and piston crown as it was moving upwards. Something had to give somewhere.

What amazes me is the complete dishonesty of the dealership, in that they took in an engine that was able to rotate and (most likely) just had a bad timing job and needed rockers... And they managed to do *something* horrific to it that has now completely trashed that engine to a point where it was seized in place. That is an amazing lack of skill from so-called "trained and certified" mechanics. Then, they just hand the vehicle back and say that they can't offer any help without a guaranteed minimum $3000 labor bill for "diagnostics" for them to tear it down and put it back together again, NO MATTER WHAT would be discovered. This is abuse of the customer, of the first degree.

With behavior like this, I wouldn't suggest that anyone bring ANY vehicle to a dealership unless they were forced at gunpoint to do so. You have no way to know what they are about to do to your car and your wallet.

Efren_Hinojosa · **Joined:** Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:29 pm **Posts:** 42

geordi wrote:

IT LIVES!!!! :frankie:

With nary a cough or sputter, it rumbled into life after just about 9 hours of reassembly and a grand total of 23 hours for me and 4 hours for the guy who had the block R/R job.

It was smoking like a train at idle for about 10-15 minutes of operation as all the cleaning fluids worked their way out of the system, but it rose to proper temperature and ran nice and smooth down the road.

Now - the last thing that needs to be addressed is the AC that had to be drained to swap the blocks. The electric fan comes on at full blast when you start the engine (this is odd because when you pull the LOW fan relay, the fan slows down) and doesn't seem to matter if the AC is on or off. The compressor won't engage however, even though I have one can of gas in it. Yes, I vacuumed the system first and ensured there weren't any leaks - there was one that I fixed.

So... Thoughts? Why is the fan running full blast, even with the engine off but key on? With the engine off, it ran the fan for about 3-4 minutes, then powered that down to low speed first, then all the way off. It did this while I was clearing codes and prepping to reprogram the computer. I am at a loss to explain this behavior.

When coolant is at certain temp. It will stay on until it cools. I am not sure on these cars though i am new to them

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Valve. The other other white meat.

Who is online