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Cranks, no start - solved
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83068		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  dyneq [ Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Cranks, no start - solved
Solved this issue by replacing the crankshaft position sensor.

First of all:
Image

For the second time in three weeks, my 2005 won't start. I've searched and read lots of older threads, but never found anything that I could translate in to useful info. The Jeep has:

-2nd gen. fuel head, new filter, bled out and the plunger feels solid
-Kennedy Lift pump
-GDE Eco tune
-Good battery
-Clean air filter
-Metal glow plugs with new relay/flash done in 2011

Cranks like a champ, but no start. The first time it happened, I decided to try replacing the filter because starting was becoming more difficult in the weeks prior and it was almost time to do it anyway. Once I bled it, it started up fine. Drove it for a couple of weeks with no troubles, then a couple of days ago, it would not start again.

I will check glow plug resistance. How long are they expected to last approximately?
I've read in some other threads that the crank position and camshaft sensors can cause this. Is it possible to test them with a multimeter before I go down that road?
Author:  Lancer [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Cranks, no start
If it cranks but doesn't fire, and you don't have an air-in-fuel problem, then I think that the crank, cam or both sensors should be replaced.

The cam sensor is easy to switch out and its not expensive, so I'd do that first. If still no joy then I'd do the crank sensor which is much more of a pain - not an expensive component but much more of a bugger to install. These things do give out over time, and our 2005s are now 10 years old.
Author:  Billwill [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
dyneq wrote:
First of all:
Image

For the second time in three weeks, my 2005 won't start. I've searched and read lots of older threads, but never found anything that I could translate in to useful info. The Jeep has:

-2nd gen. fuel head, new filter, bled out and the plunger feels solid
-Kennedy Lift pump
-GDE Eco tune
-Good battery
-Clean air filter
-Metal glow plugs with new relay/flash done in 2011

Cranks like a champ, but no start. The first time it happened, I decided to try replacing the filter because starting was becoming more difficult in the weeks prior and it was almost time to do it anyway. Once I bled it, it started up fine. Drove it for a couple of weeks with no troubles, then a couple of days ago, it would not start again.

I will check glow plug resistance. How long are they expected to last approximately?
I've read in some other threads that the crank position and camshaft sensors can cause this. Is it possible to test them with a multimeter before I go down that road?


You can measure the resistance of the cam/crank sensors and heat them up with a hairdryer...resistance should not change.

Any lights on the cluster ie. the Key Symbol or the Red LED for the SKIM anti-theft system? :?

You can try swapping over the ASD Relay with an identical one next to it and try remove the ASD relay and jumper pins 30 and 87 together inside the ASD relay socket. :wink:
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Any codes?
a cam or crank sensor fault should throw a code.

Is there a red dot lit on the instrument cluster?
If so, this would indicate a security key problem or a ASD circuit problem.

At the back of the fuel rail is the rail pressure solenoid. If it is unplugged or not getting voltage the engine will crank but not start.

If fuel is not getting to the injection pump or if the injection pump is not building up pressure, the engine will crank but not start. However, this is difficult to test.
If air is trapped in the fuel rail it will be hard to start. You can try cracking open one of the injector lines to see if fuel or air bubbles come out while cranking.

I dont know what the weather is like where you live but usually in the summer time the engine will start up even without functioning glow plugs.
Author:  dyneq [ Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Thanks everyone for your responses. I'll try and answer everyone's questions:

- Codes P0893, P0353 (using the rapid ignition on/off method; I don't have a reader. I saw in some other threads that this may be less reliable than a reader?)
- I tried the ASD relay swap
- No red LED or other unusual idiot lights

It is still warm here. But last night, I plugged in the block heater to reduce the chance of a glow plug weakness/failure having an effect. It cranked faster, but still no start.

I guess I'm lucky that both times it happened in my garage, but before I tow it to a garage, I am going to try my best to troubleshoot this. I'd rather not throw money at parts that don't need replacing (BTDT).
Author:  Rixram [ Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
I am occasionally having a similar issue. I took it to a diesel repair shop a few weeks back, and they reported having to bleed the f**k out of the fuel system. It started fine for a few days.

I think I have narrowed it to a possibly damaged fuel hose clamp leading to the HPFP. I'm going to try that in a little bit. If that isn't it, I'll see about swapping cam/crank sensors.

In the meantime, does anyone have links to the replacement cam/crank sensors on Amazon, (or similar)?

Note: If I crank it long enough, it WILL start. I carry a booster pack, and occasionally have to get a jump start to maintain such prolonged cranking, though. I realize that is waaaay from ideal, though.
Author:  CATCRD [ Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Yes, careful not to fry your starter motor from prolonged cranking. Best to let it cool down a few minutes between bouts.
Author:  pjigar [ Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Rixram wrote:
I am occasionally having a similar issue. I took it to a diesel repair shop a few weeks back, and they reported having to bleed the f**k out of the fuel system. It started fine for a few days.

I think I have narrowed it to a possibly damaged fuel hose clamp leading to the HPFP. I'm going to try that in a little bit. If that isn't it, I'll see about swapping cam/crank sensors.

In the meantime, does anyone have links to the replacement cam/crank sensors on Amazon, (or similar)?

Note: If I crank it long enough, it WILL start. I carry a booster pack, and occasionally have to get a jump start to maintain such prolonged cranking, though. I realize that is waaaay from ideal, though.

I think you really need to just drop the tank and replace those plastic quick connect lines or put an in-tank lift pump or both. Those plastic line quick connects can let the air in easily under suction. Those quick connects were designed to work under pressure from a lift pump which is only installed on gas liberty but not on CRD.
Author:  Lancer [ Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
If its the cam/crank sensors, I'd go to idparts.
Author:  Hexus [ Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Try changing the fuel filter first. Cheapest solution first. Even if you've just changed it, I've seen instances where a brand new one gets a clog from freed up material from the change out.
Author:  dyneq [ Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
I just changed the fuel filter again, but it didn't result in a start.
Author:  dyneq [ Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
dyneq wrote:
I just changed the fuel filter again, but it didn't result in a start.


Update: I plugged in the block heater and left it for an hour or so. It started after a few cranks. However when I had plugged it in before, it didn't start.

I'm going to try and start it in the AM when the engine is cold.

Do the codes mean anything to anyone (P0893, P0353)? I have searched them online and what I'm finding is kind of generic. If I can drive it over to a parts store, should I have them get the codes? I have read in other threads here that the rapid ignition cycle method is not as reliable.
Author:  dyneq [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
I'm back to a no start situation. I'm starting to suspect the CPS, but from some other threads I've read, that seems to occur gradually with stalling, etc. I never had that happen, although in the weeks leading up to the first failure to start, it was taking longer to start than usual.

Thanks again to everyone who has offered to help.
Author:  Hexus [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
dyneq wrote:
I'm back to a no start situation. I'm starting to suspect the CPS, but from some other threads I've read, that seems to occur gradually with stalling, etc. I never had that happen, although in the weeks leading up to the first failure to start, it was taking longer to start than usual.

Thanks again to everyone who has offered to help.


Neither of those DTC's are codes for our vehicle. Are you using the correct scanner?

Next, replace your ASD relay.
Author:  papaindigo [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
He did not use a code reader he used the key trick which is well known to transpose the last 2 digits of the code. On that basis P0839 is not a listed KJ CRD code but P0335 is a crank position sensor code. That sensor is well known for crank but intermittent no fire or crank but never fire especially on a warm engine. In neither case will it trigger a CEL.

My bet replace crank sensor. May be easier to reach from bottom than top.
Author:  dyneq [ Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Forgot to mention: I went to two different auto parts places to get the codes read. At both places, and with 2 different readers, no codes could be read. Just a 'link error' message.

I did try transposing the ASD relay with the other identical relay, but no difference.
Author:  Lancer [ Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Just replace the crank sensor. It is a lot easier to reach from the bottom, but I'd put aside a couple of hours to do it as its a fiddly job. The cam sensor on the other hand takes about 15 mins max, but I'd change the crank sensor first if I were you.
Author:  Rixram [ Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
I just goy my Jeep fixed. It had the same symptoms of cranking but not firing. I had him replace the crankshaft position sensor, and all is well.
Author:  dyneq [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Thank you to everyone who has posted. I'm ready to replace the CPS. I've seen differing advice on the easiest way to do it. Lancer said to access it from below and others, like this post:

viewtopic.php?p=842049#p842049

have steps to mostly do it from above (with one step from below).

If possible I will take some photos and notes since this seems to be a problem that many folks are having nowadays. Feel like I should be paying it forward to this awesome board.
Author:  Rixram [ Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cranks, no start
Best of luck to you, and let us know how it works out.

Note: For me, working in that region of the engine, what works for me to to lay in-line with the vehicle, not perpendicular. Head towards front, feet towards back. Makes it much easier for me to get anything done in that spot.
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