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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:09 am 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Probably one of the best writeups on the head gasket thickness subject on LOST.
viewtopic.php?p=928130#p928130
Of course the Factory Service Manual covers it in great detail as well.

There are varying opinions on the subject and some simply promote the use of a single thickness gasket regardless of what is removed or specified in the manual.
The head is not recommended to be milled due to a very thin nickel coating on the surface.
Head gasket thickness is based on piston protrusion which affects valve to piston clearance, cylinder volume, and possibly EG temperatures.


The CRD head does not have a lot of material, so they don't take well to planing or milling.

The VAST majority of CRDs are "1-hole" size. The "0/3" hole is EXTREMELY RARE and the "2" hole is most often used to compensate when material has been taken off.

(Side note: WHY DID VM CHANGE THE 0 HOLE TO 3 HOLE. It is a nightmare to explain to people...)

I have been working on getting gaskets without bolts for years, finally making some progress...stay tuned.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:26 am 
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That's awesome if you can. Since your a dealer, can you get the Victor Reinz? I can send you the PDF catalog they sent me if you want. I called them today and they will only sell to parts dealers and distributors. Unfortunately, that's not me.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Holy Necro-posting Batman....
Since this zombie thread is back, let me add some new knowledge to the stew.

I have now worked on close to 80 engines, I have another in just a couple days and 2 more (at least) that will likely happen this winter. About 25 times so far, I've seen the pistons of this engine.

I have severe concerns about what the Italians who assembled these engines were drinking while they were working. Some of the factory engines have had DENTS in the head from the cylinder liners! They certainly weren't measuring each and every engine for piston protrusion, or whoever did it occasionally just did it with his eyes closed.

NO, the liner is NOT supposed to contact the bottom of the head.
NO, there IS NOT A CRUSH RING in the bottom of the head - although that would be a GREAT design feature (they are called Fire Rings) as these and MLS gaskets are both used to great success in racing engines. Forged in the fiery furnace of racing, heavy duty engines tend to pick up such features.
NO, changing to the 2-hole gasket does not change the compression ratio - at least in any appreciable way.
NO, there will not be starting difficulties on engines that have gone from the no-hole to the two-hole, a change of 20 thousands thicker. If the engine is harder to start, something else has happened.

The liner should be flush or up to about 5 thousands above - as mentioned earlier. A feeler gauge or a razor blade is a good indicator here. The liner is not "pressed" into the block, it is held down by gravity and the head gasket (when installed) and seats on shims under the top lip, and an o-ring seal on the bottom deep in the block.

ALL of the sealing against the 2500+ psi of combustion pressure is done by the wide flange at the top of the liner (just on the outside of that raised ring) and the head gasket compression against the head and that wide flange. This is why the studs are putting down about 19000 psi of compressive force! Outside of that flange of the liner, everything else is just sealing oil from touching water and vice-versa - although evenly clamping of the head is critical.

About milling the heads: I don't know if they are coated in nickel or not, but every time I have investigated having one of these milled, the answer has been the same: VM says it CANNOT be done because the head is just too thin. I have also not found any heads that exhibited any significant warping even when checked against machinist straightedges, so at least in my travels, warping seems to (luckily) not be much of an issue. I have heard of a couple people having about 7 thousands taken off the head, but no more than that. I have personally observed that even with just 7 thousands being milled, there is a HIGH potential for cutting into the valve seats (which are pressed into the head) and this is a really bad idea, so say several machinists. I trust their knowledge on this subject. Don't mill the head, don't compromise the valve seats which are NOT adjustable.

If you have the head off, by all means, have a head shop or a machine shop check it for flatness. Then change the valves because of the questionable exhaust valve alloy failures that have been shown to be more than a statistical anomaly... And then use the 2-hole gasket, plenty of good copper spray sealant (Yes you CAN apply it to the new head gasket even with that crap rubberized coating it comes with) and ARP studs when you reassemble the engine. I've done this valve and head work about 25 times now personally (and would be happy to work on yours too, as you are reading this) and ALL of them are running around successfully today.

Following this procedure with these parts, your engine will pass the cold engine test with flying colors, and look forward to another 200k miles before you would need to think about moving the head again. 400k is a respectable life for any engine, with proper maintenance, who knows how long these CRD motors could actually last? We've pretty well found all the issues and fixed them, and it (thankfully) wasn't a hugely long list. This is a pretty solid motor.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:27 am 
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Geordi!! I always love your posts and thanks for the above info. That's very helpful. I have to admit, I have been lucky with my CRD. I have had very little trouble with it since it became part of the family in 2006. I have only taken my Jeep to the dealership once for some warranty work (stuck EGR). I left with a new EGR, An F37 flash and a pissed off diesel. Then I found this forum and learned of GDE. I have had a happy Jeep since. Between you guys and Kieth, your miracle workers. But at 200K I have my first major issue, the mysterious coolant missing from the bottle problem, now a leaking #4 injector seal (probably because of the coolant in the cylinder). Then started the searching and reading threads on ARP and MLS gaskets. Having done a few 6.0L fords with head studs and removing the troublesome internal oil cooler adding an external cooler (the ultimate cure for a 6.0L). I found that clean mating surfaces was critical. So, since this head is not suggested to be milled, how are you prepping the surfaces? My CRD has never been overheated. I have always used Shell Rotella 5/40 T5. I ordered new lifters, a timing kit, new glow plugs, motor mounts and APR head studs from ID parts. Keith hooked me up with an OEM water pump new in box for cheap. My only hold up was the head gasket. I can get an entire head set with an Elring 1.52 mm (2 hole) MLG head gasket for $168.00 with shipping out of England. No head bolts. They don't offer the multipal sizes. They only sell the 2 hole since they say it makes no difference and it's not worth stocking multipal sizes. I talked to a machine shop out there that I have a friend working at and they rebuild a ton of these engines and only use the 2 hole as well. I just couldn't figure out why we here in the USA were buying multipal sizes. I was wanting to understand the logic so I don't mess up my beloved Jeep. But I am getting heart burn spending close to $300.00 on just a head gasket and crap bolts. No other gaskets, those are additional. Plus I wanted to do a valve job on it due to the mileage, new guide seals and things like that.

Thanks for the offer to do the work. Since my relationship with my Jeep is like that post a while back here on LOST about owing a CRD is like dating a stripper and knowing it's wrong, I must tackle this myself. I have the entire Miller tool set, got it a while ago before it got expensive. I have the student guides but no service manual, a nice shop and a love for automotive's (and generators). I have done the glow plugs when converted to 5V and a timing belt & accessories at 123K. I will conquer this!

Once last question. How do you think the Cat converter handled burning all the coolant? I know on gassers (patooey) the glycol will turn into hard cake that kills converters. Are these cat's the same? Most of my diesels are old school so no converted was required.

Thanks,

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:54 am 
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Let me try to unpack that for you....

Get your tune updated back to the 7v (keep the 5v plugs) if you had that changed. Keith will do that for like $50 if needed. Your CRD will start easier and it won't hurt the plugs.

Shell Rotella T FIVE? I hope that was a misprint, 5 is a (IIRC) blend, T6 is the fully synthetic. I use that or Mobil 1 TDT / Mobil 1 Delvac 1 / Mobil 1 Delvac ESP depending on what's on sale, they are all great diesel oils and are fully synthetic. I also found a Chevron Delo 400 that was fully synthetic and CK4 rated, but that is harder to find, probably b/c it is so new.

The coolant is likely on the ground not in the engine, from a head gasket leaking combustion pressure into the water jacket. Fixing the head gasket and using a healthy coating of Copper Coat on all 4 surfaces is essential, as are the studs.

The head gasket kit at IDparts should be $129, not $300... The complete kit is helpful but lacks a thermostat gasket and turbo oil supply (banjo) crush washers and turbo drain gasket, but even that kit is very worth it at $280 or so. Throw away the bolts man, just don't worry about them.
Valve guides in the head are pressed-in and silicone with a spring at the top. Don't worry about them unless you find excessive wear (that you can FEEL) on the stems - Here's a tip, you won't find any wear that you can feel. I never replace the guides, this engine has some quality components like that, and some questionable ones (like the valves themselves). The seats are also pressed in, and three-angle-cut so you can't really do anything with them either - But you DO need to lap the valves in, on the mating surfaces. Take your time and keep it CLEAN and you will end up with valves that will hold diesel above them for over 24 hours with only a hint of leaking. (this was how I tested one head, an actual leak-down test, and the paper towels underneath were still clean the next day and the runners were still full.)

Service manuals are available for FREE as a PDF - Colorado4wheel website (google) or the link is buried here somewhere, maybe the NOOB guide?
Don't take the front of the Jeep off - you don't need to, and it just overly complicates things and does nothing for the safety of your AC compressor. You will have to remove the fan and shroud at the same time however, but that is doable - I've done it close to 80 times, takes me about 5 minutes total. Might take a first-timer a bit longer. After you get it out, cut the shroud in half below the bolt tabs, and toss the bottom. It is trash and does nothing for helping the airflow anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:30 pm 
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Toss the CAT converter, they can restrict the exhaust flow on these engines and have no O2 sensors involved like gassers and will set no codes if removed.
Replace it with a straight piece of 2.5" exhaust tubing.

Link to online manuals provided by Sir Sam:> http://www.colorado4wheel.com/manuals/Jeep/KJ/

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Very nice, thank you. That was a typo on the Rotella. It is the the full synethic T6, that's what I have always used. It was late......

Same with the gasket, I meant the head set they offer for $287.20

The coolant is unfortunately in the engine in places it shouldn't be. It's random but will miss when first started for a few seconds as it clears out it's lungs. Then it blows a thick white cloud for the first few minuted going down the road. When it's hot out or really cold (70-100 summer, 30-0 winter) it was using no coolant. In the 60-40 range, it drinks a gallon in two weeks. I leave the pressure cap loose and it's better but still uses. I drove it last week to keep the battery charged up, a 30 minute jaunt on the interstate. 28 degrees outside. It for the first time, pushed coolant out of the bottle. I let it idle waiting for my kids to come out of school and the heater started blowing cold. Revved it up and got warm. Popped the hood and the bottle was full and coming around the loose rad cap. Not good, drove it home and pulled it in front of the shop and started ordering parts and hitting you guys up. I was going to down it for a timing belt and water pump anyway but it sounds like some top end love is in order.

Once I dig into this thing, I will post the cylinder torque values as I remove crappy bolts.

I will get in touch with Keith and get mine put back at 7 vdc. It's always sucked to cold start since going to 5 vdc.

Thanks again,

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:31 am 
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I've had great luck with milling about 20 of these heads. No copper Cote. I'm too afraid of changing my engine building from how I was taught, although the copper stuff is intriguing if it is filling in little imperfections, especially on these rough blocks. I've tested my engine with very heavy towing in the mountains, had a seized thermostat that caused a boil over, and a failed coolant fitting that caused another boil over, plus several 4000 rpm runs, and my milled head has survived. So I think milling is safe, but if the copper Cote passes the same torture tests, or as soon as I see it last for 200k on lost members engines, then I'm all in. Would save time and money to skip the machine shop!

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:36 am 
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If you are game for a field trip to Twin Falls this weekend, give me a call or a text - I'll be flying in tomorrow and working a valve job Friday and Saturday - probably putting it on the engine Saturday morning. You are welcome to see how it works!

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:34 am 
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Mountainman wrote:
I've had great luck with milling about 20 of these heads. No copper Cote. I'm too afraid of changing my engine building from how I was taught, although the copper stuff is intriguing if it is filling in little imperfections, especially on these rough blocks. I've tested my engine with very heavy towing in the mountains, had a seized thermostat that caused a boil over, and a failed coolant fitting that caused another boil over, plus several 4000 rpm runs, and my milled head has survived. So I think milling is safe, but if the copper Cote passes the same torture tests, or as soon as I see it last for 200k on lost members engines, then I'm all in. Would save time and money to skip the machine shop!

How much are you milling off the heads? Its kinda important for others to know.

I you look up the specs for Cometic and FelPro MLS gaskets, they specify a smoothness factor on both the block and head. IDK the exact number but its almost a mirror like finish.
(kinda excessive if you ask me)
They also say not to use any additional sealers because there is already a coating on the gasket.
Spraying on something like copper coat just adds a layer of security for those who have doubts about meeting that "smoothness factor."
Myself, I use Mopar spray gasket adhesive (red sticky stuff).

IDK who makes the MLS head gasket for the CRD but all the major manufacturers seem to have the same specs.

In the racing world of high HP, high compression turbocharged/supercharged/nitrous engines, MLS head gaskets are the norm. Some of those guys are reusing their MLS gaskets. But they drill out the rivets, separate and clean each layer, then reassemble with some spray sealer on each layer.
Of course in these situations, lifted heads and blown head gaskets are also the norm. And they are only going 1/4 mile at a time. But its whatever it takes to get the car back on the track for the next run.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:03 pm 
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(red sticky stuff) is same as Permatex® High Tack™ Spray-A-Gasket™ Sealant
It is a red very sticky spray adhesive.
Have used it for many, many years on all kinds of engine gaskets including head gaskets.
Great Stuff!

Image

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:51 pm 
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I try to avoid that bleak part of the state Jim! But this thread might just have me confident enough to try the stuff.
Flash, unfortunately my old school machinist can't tell me how much he takes off, but I guess I could just take some before and after measurements. They do come back to me looking like a new heads surface though. Almost all of my customers are nearby, and not one has called me about a HG failure.
Are you guys meticulously scraping the head and block with a razor blade, or just counting on the spray stuff to even the surface?

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Meticulously? No.
Just scrape off the heavy stuff.
And I have these buffing(?) discs that are like a scotch brite pad. I use them with my high speed drill to clean the surfaces.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:34 pm 
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One more thing. I have been upsizing one size most times, except with the ones that already have 2 holes of course. No problems either way with my milled heads. I am switching to all 2 hole gaskets for extra insurance, since like Geordi said, the liners press into the head on some of them, so thicker is better. Oh, I have also used 2 hole on no holes when that's all I had on hand.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:39 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
Meticulously? No.
Just scrape off the heavy stuff.
And I have these buffing(?) discs that are like a scotch brite pad. I use them with my high speed drill to clean the surfaces.


Interesting. Well, I spend a good hour scraping the block perfectly clean, and then I degrease it with acetone until the rag comes up clean. So I'm getting pretty close to new factory mating surfaces. My back would really appreciate it if I did less of this, but I'm a pretty OCD when it comes to HG's.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:37 pm 
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geordi wrote:
If you are game for a field trip to Twin Falls this weekend, give me a call or a text - I'll be flying in tomorrow and working a valve job Friday and Saturday - probably putting it on the engine Saturday morning. You are welcome to see how it works!



Thanks Geordi for the offer. Unfortunately I have to work both days so I can't make it. I do appreciate though that would of been an awesome show and tell.

So it looks like the European folks were correct judging from what you guys are doing. Just use the 2 hole and your good. Well thanks for all the input. I was reading last night on all the thermostat discussions. I have always bought the OEM ones which don't seem to last long. I think Mark's is pretty awesome but his list is closed. Turbo Freaks looks nice but as you guys are saying it's costly. I will probably try and make a "Mark" version since I have a few old ones laying around.

Oh and since we are getting into the winter months, I wanted to recommend the FIA grill cover for our Jeeps. I have used one for years now and previously living in Indiana, were it gets retarded cold, you need one! It works great.

https://gofia.com/product/wf927-6/

Thanks,

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:56 am 
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Mountainman wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
Meticulously? No.
Just scrape off the heavy stuff.
And I have these buffing(?) discs that are like a scotch brite pad. I use them with my high speed drill to clean the surfaces.


Interesting. Well, I spend a good hour scraping the block perfectly clean, and then I degrease it with acetone until the rag comes up clean. So I'm getting pretty close to new factory mating surfaces. My back would really appreciate it if I did less of this, but I'm a pretty OCD when it comes to HG's.


I go at both surfaces with a razor blade (or several) being dragged across the surface rather than pushed (this could dig into the surface, which is obviously not optimal) mostly to get any old coating off. On the block there is also usually some scale that also scrapes off. The Copper Cote (Permatex Spray Copper, similar to that can of red sticky goop) takes care of any imperfections. Metal on metal will never perfectly seal, there will always be microscopic imperfections. The point of the copper is just an added layer of protection. If you do it right, as you compress the gasket and tighten the studs, you should see just a bit of it squeeze out from the end of the head / block interface.

None of the engines I have built has had a subsequent HG issue either. Stuff works great.

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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:24 pm 
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I used Rotella Full Synthetic from the start...Stealth EGR Delete and then GDE EGR Delete and now Sasquatch Kit 1 and 2...Jim and I did the rebuild at 189,000 miles...used 2 hole and copper Permatex. Replaced all valves and rockers BUT none were broken or damaged! Now I did the GDE Turbo Upgrade and the Thermostat Housing upgrade...things runs like a charm. Had the Cummins Diesel Fuel Pump in the tank for quite a while and the Suncoast TC done at the same time as the GDE Turbo Kit...All is well at 220,000 miles.

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Founder of L.O.S.T.
2006 CRD Sport

Mods: GDE Hot Tune w/ 364#@2000rpm/Air Box /3" Str8 Exhaust/ASFIR Alum Skids/245-75R-16 Cooper STT PRO/OME LIFT w/Clevis & 4 Spring Isos/AirTabs/Rigid 10" S2 LED/4xGuard Ctr Matrix Bumper
Drag Strip:Reac=.1078_60ft=2.224_1/8=10.39@64.8mph_1/4+16.46@80.8mph


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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:46 am 
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LOST Newbie

Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:53 am
Posts: 48
Location: Houston, TX
VM Diesel Specialists in the UK quoted me an aftermarket gasket without bolts. They first quoted the kit with bolts but then I asket for gasket only. They said they do not need a thickness all of the head gaskets are now universal.

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2006 Liberty CRD Sport Black
EHM, ORM, FUMOTO, SAMCO HOSES, SKYJACKER
REBUILT @ 105K
ARP HEAD STUDS
GDE HOT TUNE
FLORIDA TORQUE CONVERTER
WEEKS KIT
JBA UCA’s
Etecno 5v Glow Plugs
Updated Fuel Filter Head


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 Post subject: Re: 3 different head gasket types: Why?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:26 pm 
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LOST Junkie

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:09 pm
Posts: 541
Location: Australia
geordi wrote:
Mountainman wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
Meticulously? No.
Just scrape off the heavy stuff.
And I have these buffing(?) discs that are like a scotch brite pad. I use them with my high speed drill to clean the surfaces.


Interesting. Well, I spend a good hour scraping the block perfectly clean, and then I degrease it with acetone until the rag comes up clean. So I'm getting pretty close to new factory mating surfaces. My back would really appreciate it if I did less of this, but I'm a pretty OCD when it comes to HG's.


I go at both surfaces with a razor blade (or several) being dragged across the surface rather than pushed (this could dig into the surface, which is obviously not optimal) mostly to get any old coating off. On the block there is also usually some scale that also scrapes off. The Copper Cote (Permatex Spray Copper, similar to that can of red sticky goop) takes care of any imperfections. Metal on metal will never perfectly seal, there will always be microscopic imperfections. The point of the copper is just an added layer of protection. If you do it right, as you compress the gasket and tighten the studs, you should see just a bit of it squeeze out from the end of the head / block interface.

None of the engines I have built has had a subsequent HG issue either. Stuff works great.

This is good information Geordi. I have been using Hylomar on head gaskets of diesels, even got away with reusing head gaskets by applying it to each surface of sandwich type metal gaskets. I just apply it around the important holes like the cylinders, water jacket & oil holes. Any leak can then find its way out the side. Have never had that occur though.

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Australian KJ CRD 2006


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