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glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83406		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  nealio [ Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
After 45 mins of searching I decided to post this as none of the other threads seems to cover it.

I dont have any CEL light and believe CEL will come on if there is a glow plug issue...but...My 06 CRD starts hard in colder weather and now that we are seeing winter again I have been able to do some poor mans diagnostics.

First thing I tried is leaving ignition on for longer than light. Light doesnt seem to go on long enough. This has no effect.

Next thing I tried is glowing twice. Ignition on to glow 10 seconds. Off. Back on 10 seconds then start. Starts better.
Doing that 3 times is just like starting in summer. This leads me to believe glow plugs working, just no long enough. So is that relay controlled or ECM? I believe from what I am reading ECM. I have GDE and would think tune covered this?

Ideas? For now glow 3 times works like a charm.
Author:  Mountainman [ Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
nealio wrote:
After 45 mins of searching I decided to post this as none of the other threads seems to cover it.

I dont have any CEL light and believe CEL will come on if there is a glow plug issue...but...My 06 CRD starts hard in colder weather and now that we are seeing winter again I have been able to do some poor mans diagnostics.

First thing I tried is leaving ignition on for longer than light. Light doesnt seem to go on long enough. This has no effect.

Next thing I tried is glowing twice. Ignition on to glow 10 seconds. Off. Back on 10 seconds then start. Starts better.
Doing that 3 times is just like starting in summer. This leads me to believe glow plugs working, just no long enough. So is that relay controlled or ECM? I believe from what I am reading ECM. I have GDE and would think tune covered this?

Ideas? For now glow 3 times works like a charm.


That's normal behavior. If GDE changed the programming for that, it would be on longer in the summer also, and you'd chew through those expensive plugs. It should start down to roughly 20F or so, but way better to plug in the block heater for at least 20 minutes before a cold start, easier on the engine.
Folks that know far more than I said that the oil pressure isn't lubing the bearings very well on these when they are really cold. Hopefully you have access to an extension cord or a garage in winter? I know some folks don't (apartments I assume), and that can make it a tough vehicle to own.
:2cents:
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
nealio wrote:
After 45 mins of searching I decided to post this as none of the other threads seems to cover it.

I dont have any CEL light and believe CEL will come on if there is a glow plug issue...but...My 06 CRD starts hard in colder weather and now that we are seeing winter again I have been able to do some poor mans diagnostics.

First thing I tried is leaving ignition on for longer than light. Light doesnt seem to go on long enough. This has no effect.

Next thing I tried is glowing twice. Ignition on to glow 10 seconds. Off. Back on 10 seconds then start. Starts better.
Doing that 3 times is just like starting in summer. This leads me to believe glow plugs working, just no long enough. So is that relay controlled or ECM? I believe from what I am reading ECM. I have GDE and would think tune covered this?

Ideas? For now glow 3 times works like a charm.


How cold is it where you are?
Which glow plugs are you using?

Depending on the age of your glow plugs, you might need new glow plugs.
Especially if you are still using the factory original ceramic plugs.
Author:  dirtmover [ Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
This thread might be of interest:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78212

Glow plugs do age and deteriorate over time. They will consume less power and heat up less, sufficient to cause starting issues but not so much that the ECU will raise a CEL. To test their effectiveness you really need to monitor the current consumption during the burn, checking cold resistance doesn't really tell you much.
Author:  nealio [ Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
Thanks to both for your replies. I agree it could be age of plugs, they are original ceramic. Also agree this is somewhat normal for cold weather, except that it was not nearly so bad last fall and its only getting to 32F so I wouldn't normally plug in till closer to 0. Is there any harm with glowing twice or 3 times? It works like a charm.
Author:  Billwill [ Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
nealio wrote:
Thanks to both for your replies. I agree it could be age of plugs, they are original ceramic. Also agree this is somewhat normal for cold weather, except that it was not nearly so bad last fall and its only getting to 32F so I wouldn't normally plug in till closer to 0. Is there any harm with glowing twice or 3 times? It works like a charm.


Should not be a problem turning the ignition ON/OFF a few times to get the glow plugs up to heat...I have seen many posts where CRD owners do this in cold weather! :wink:
Author:  Hexus [ Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
PSA: USE YOUR BLOCK HEATER!
Author:  nealio [ Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
All I really appreciate the replies and I would use my block heater...however the darn thing requires electricity. Neither free nor easily available I am afraid.
Author:  flash7210 [ Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
nealio wrote:
All I really appreciate the replies and I would use my block heater...however the darn thing requires electricity. Neither free nor easily available I am afraid.


For those times when you are off-grid...

You could have a spare deep-cycle battery and a appropriately sized DC-AC inverter.
Sorry, I dont know the exact wattage of the block heater, but you wouldn't need a fancy pure-sine inverter.
And with careful wiring and a battery isolator, your spare battery could be charged while driving but wont effect the starting performance of your main battery.
I think some people have used a small portable generator for this purpose too.
Author:  nealio [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
Hmm...gas generator to start my diesel jeep...guys I have had 4 diesel vehicles and none has ever needed this. I have a chev diesel that start reliably in -20F with no block heater. Up here in Canada the igloo doesnt have electricity:)
and polar bears keep chewing threw the cord ;)
How about if I start a small campfire under the jeep...perhaps I can cook super while I wait!

Actually I have daytime street parking and just no place to plug in. But my point (other than humor) is in past few winters this hasnt been a problem. Old glow plugs are likely the cause and I appreciate that new knowledge.

Now the $200 question is 5V bosch or 7v (new) etechnos' Im leaning towards the new etechnos based on what Ive read.
Author:  rankom [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
well we been talking about this problem for a long time, and you see metal GP are only choice because ceramics are dangerous! but they don't work good as original plugs, but the problem i see there is big difference , some jeeps start ok with 7v e-tecnos some need long crank time and key cycles 3 times, Im gong to order map -intake sensor for my jeep , because i think its not reading temperature properly i did try ambient sensor (grill location ) that didn't help , so i let you know next week or so , but i have done so much in pass 2 years on this ting that all my neighbours are wondering about me ,so I'm thinking i going to work on it at night after work so nobody can see me ha ha keep up the humour
Author:  Mountainman [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
rankom wrote:
well we been talking about this problem for a long time, and you see metal GP are only choice because ceramics are dangerous! but they don't work good as original plugs, but the problem i see there is big difference , some jeeps start ok with 7v e-tecnos some need long crank time and key cycles 3 times, Im gong to order map -intake sensor for my jeep , because i think its not reading temperature properly i did try ambient sensor (grill location ) that didn't help , so i let you know next week or so , but i have done so much in pass 2 years on this ting that all my neighbours are wondering about me ,so I'm thinking i going to work on it at night after work so nobody can see me ha ha keep up the humour

:-)r
Yeah, the other day my neighbor asked "you bought ANOTHER one?" and said that I must like pain or something like that :juggle:
Author:  nealio [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
What about the weeks kit with the pre-heater? Also seems like the last 6 months of etechno are better than either the old 7 or 5v steel?
Author:  mass-hole [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
I just measured the output in my glow plug harness today with my gde tune.

1st key on:
5.3V - 2 seconds
4.3V - 10 seconds
0v

Turn key off, turn back on for 2nd try:

5.3V - 2 seconds
4.3V - 10 seconds
0V

So leaving your key on for 12 seconds and then cycle a second time for 12 seconds is optimal.
Author:  Yeti [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
you can Increase the time if GDE don't touch it , when the temp go low , in stock tune the time can arrive at 19 second in base of the water temp
Author:  Silverbullet [ Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
I miss my 7v ceramics. Its been almost 1 week and the 7v Etecnos are sub par. 2 solid seconds before the engine actually starts and a nice white cloud of smoke, I guess id rather have that over a broken glow plug

Ben
Author:  nealio [ Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
Yeti wrote:
you can Increase the time if GDE don't touch it , when the temp go low , in stock tune the time can arrive at 19 second in base of the water temp


So should we be asking Keith to give us guys in cold temps two programs? Load one for the 3 weeks of summer ...and use the other for regular cold temps?
Author:  95Z28A4 [ Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
I am working on a grid heater for my wife's CRD. 65Corvair is doing the same for his CRD. I read a post (from Hexus if recall correctly) stating battery voltage dropped to 10 volts while using BOTH glow plugs and the Weeks intake heater simultaneously. Based on this, I decided a better solution may be to use both the glow plugs and the grid heater, but not at the same time.

The FSM states:
When the ignition key is turned to the ON position, the ECM sends a signal to the glow plug module to turn on, and cycle, the glow plugs for a predetermined amount of time, plus illuminate the glow plug light in the instrument panel.

MODULE-ENGINE CONTROL C2 (DIESEL) - 58 WAY
CAV_____Circuit__________Function
43_______D330 20WT/BR_____GLOW PLUG MODULE SIGNAL

I think manual operation using a momentary contact pushbutton switch is the least expensive and most reliable mode of actuation for a grid heater. Is it possible to tap into the glow plug module signal wire and use it to break the circuit from the pushbutton to the grid heater contactor? Possibly, a normally closed relay can be wired in series with the pushbutton. The glow plug module signal will trigger the normally closed relay coil. When the glow plug module receives the signal from the ECM, power from the pushbutton to the grid heater contactor will be interrupted by the relay dropping out the grid heater contactor.

If an indicator is desired, a 12 volt LED can be wired to the contactor. When the contactor coil receives 12 volts, the LED will illuminate indicating the grid heater is ON.

I am considering this Panasonic HY1Z-4.5V relay:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pan ... 252bp1I%3d

And the White Rodger 120-901 for a grid heater contactor:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Whi ... thOw%3D%3D

Thoughts anyone?
Author:  flash7210 [ Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
95Z28A4 wrote:
I am working on a grid heater for my wife's CRD. 65Corvair is doing the same for his CRD. I read a post (from Hexus if recall correctly) stating battery voltage dropped to 10 volts while using BOTH glow plugs and the Weeks intake heater simultaneously. Based on this, I decided a better solution may be to use both the glow plugs and the grid heater, but not at the same time.

The FSM states:
When the ignition key is turned to the ON position, the ECM sends a signal to the glow plug module to turn on, and cycle, the glow plugs for a predetermined amount of time, plus illuminate the glow plug light in the instrument panel.

MODULE-ENGINE CONTROL C2 (DIESEL) - 58 WAY
CAV_____Circuit__________Function
43_______D330 20WT/BR_____GLOW PLUG MODULE SIGNAL

I think manual operation using a momentary contact pushbutton switch is the least expensive and most reliable mode of actuation for a grid heater. Is it possible to tap into the glow plug module signal wire and use it to break the circuit from the pushbutton to the grid heater contactor? Possibly, a normally closed relay can be wired in series with the pushbutton. The glow plug module signal will trigger the normally closed relay coil. When the glow plug module receives the signal from the ECM, power from the pushbutton to the grid heater contactor will be interrupted by the relay dropping out the grid heater contactor.

If an indicator is desired, a 12 volt LED can be wired to the contactor. When the contactor coil receives 12 volts, the LED will illuminate indicating the grid heater is ON.

I am considering this Panasonic HY1Z-4.5V relay:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pan ... 252bp1I%3d

And the White Rodger 120-901 for a grid heater contactor:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Whi ... thOw%3D%3D

Thoughts anyone?


How long does the grid heater need to be on to get hot enough?
You could use a timing circuit that when turned on powers the grid heater for like 5 seconds. If necessary, you could reset the timer and power it for an additional 5 seconds and repeat as needed.
This could all be wired up to work with ignition key off.

You should power the circuit diectly from the battery. Therefore your relay should be a 12 volt relay with 50 amp contacts. A timing circuit may not be necessary at first but may be helpful down the road once you figure out the optimal on times.
Author:  95Z28A4 [ Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: glow plug timing, ignition on off more than once
flash7210 wrote:
95Z28A4 wrote:
I am working on a grid heater for my wife's CRD. 65Corvair is doing the same for his CRD. I read a post (from Hexus if recall correctly) stating battery voltage dropped to 10 volts while using BOTH glow plugs and the Weeks intake heater simultaneously. Based on this, I decided a better solution may be to use both the glow plugs and the grid heater, but not at the same time.

The FSM states:
When the ignition key is turned to the ON position, the ECM sends a signal to the glow plug module to turn on, and cycle, the glow plugs for a predetermined amount of time, plus illuminate the glow plug light in the instrument panel.

MODULE-ENGINE CONTROL C2 (DIESEL) - 58 WAY
CAV_____Circuit__________Function
43_______D330 20WT/BR_____GLOW PLUG MODULE SIGNAL

I think manual operation using a momentary contact pushbutton switch is the least expensive and most reliable mode of actuation for a grid heater. Is it possible to tap into the glow plug module signal wire and use it to break the circuit from the pushbutton to the grid heater contactor? Possibly, a normally closed relay can be wired in series with the pushbutton. The glow plug module signal will trigger the normally closed relay coil. When the glow plug module receives the signal from the ECM, power from the pushbutton to the grid heater contactor will be interrupted by the relay dropping out the grid heater contactor.

If an indicator is desired, a 12 volt LED can be wired to the contactor. When the contactor coil receives 12 volts, the LED will illuminate indicating the grid heater is ON.

I am considering this Panasonic HY1Z-4.5V relay:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pan ... 252bp1I%3d

And the White Rodger 120-901 for a grid heater contactor:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Whi ... thOw%3D%3D

Thoughts anyone?


How long does the grid heater need to be on to get hot enough?
You could use a timing circuit that when turned on powers the grid heater for like 5 seconds. If necessary, you could reset the timer and power it for an additional 5 seconds and repeat as needed.
This could all be wired up to work with ignition key off.

You should power the circuit diectly from the battery. Therefore your relay should be a 12 volt relay with 50 amp contacts. A timing circuit may not be necessary at first but may be helpful down the road once you figure out the optimal on times.


I don't know how long is hot enough. I want to keep this simple for my wife.
    Turn key on
    Press grid heater button for 30 seconds.
    Start engine
    Press grid heater button until engine is smooth

The relay that will power the grid heater is the White Rodgers that is rated for 100 amps. This relay is similar to the relays on my 1998 Dodge 12 valve, but the 12 valve grid heater has two elements necessitating two relays.

If this works, the Panasonic normally closed relay coil will pull in when the glow plugs are active interrupting the control power to the White Rodgers relay and killing power to the grid heater. This will prevent usage of the grid heater while the glow plugs are on.

With that said, does anyone know the glow plug module signal voltage? Is it 12 volts? 5 volts? Or??
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