symptoms of the timing belt being off 1 degree off?

JoeStretch · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:32 pm

What would symptoms of a timing belt being 1-2 degrees off be? a mechanic that I trusted replace the timing belt ( idlers,tensioner and wp as well) on my 05 jeep liberty almost a year ago and it hasn't acted the same since . I Now have 15-16 mpg in town while I used to have 18-22, everytime I step on the accelerator I get a thick black cloud behind me. The throttle seems a lot less responsive
, before the timing belt the tires would squeal a bit if I really romped on it from a dead stop, now I'm lunges forward after a slight delay. The biggest problem is overheating on hills, and it seems to get up to temp really quick, the needle is just below the halfway mark after about 3 miles , even on a cold morning.
I'm I am on Jeff's list awaiting a new thermostat , the overheating could be a partially stuck closed theromostat. But that does not explain crappy mileage and black smoke.

I'm wondering if these symptoms would indicate the timing being one or two degrees off or worse yet, bent rockers because he had the cams totally out of time.

Does anyone have any experience with either bent rockers or slightly off timing?

I passed the NV smog test in May while running some cetane booster, NV emissions are a dyno test
for diesels. The power service cetane boost helps with the smoke a little butoo I never remember it smoking this bad before.

Flushed and inspected the radiator in July . I am running an ARB bumper and slightly oversized tires 265 70's since February, but I would think that those would cause transmission problems before overheating problems?
I know that they they could could account for the slight delay and poor mileage but that much?

JoeStretch · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:36 pm

I inspected the cac hose and it looks ok, it was replaced by the dealer in 2012

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:07 pm

This would be consistent with the belt being off. If it ran great before he did the belt, and then it blew smoke afterwards, then you probably have your answer... Any codes?

lars0247 · **Joined:** Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:09 am **Posts:** 98

Did you check to make sure you are getting vacuum to the turbo actuator. If this line is disconnected or leaking, the fuel economy and throttle response will be poor, plus you will get black smoke when you accelerate.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:33 pm

lars0247 wrote:

Did you check to make sure you are getting vacuum to the turbo actuator. If this line is disconnected or leaking, the fuel economy and throttle response will be poor, plus you will get black smoke when you accelerate.

Yeah, that's a good check. The line often gets a wear or crack in it. You'll hear the turbo screaming more than normal if it's really bad, and you'll get over boost codes as well. Last one that I had overheating on hill really bad was this, but the turbo whined with any acceleration.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:53 pm

If the vacuum hose to the turbo is off or cracked or cut - the turbo will be in ZERO BOOST mode, not in full boost. The truck will be basically undriveable. You certainly won't ever exceed 30mph with it, and the level of pollution will be stunning.

I'd say you almost certainly have the timing done wrong, but depending on how badly, you can easily be looking at broken rockers too. The exhaust side seems to be the first to break in these kind of situations. If only one breaks on the exhaust of each cylinder, the engine would still be able to idle correctly, but couldn't get enough air out to let fresh in, which would make tons of smoke.

Where in Nevada? I can fly out there and work on it, and if you are in Vegas, I know the area well so the travel costs would be minimized. I'm sorry you had it done a year ago, I've been out there a couple times this year already.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:57 pm

geordi wrote:

If the vacuum hose to the turbo is off or cracked or cut - the turbo will be in ZERO BOOST mode, not in full boost. The truck will be basically undriveable. You certainly won't ever exceed 30mph with it, and the level of pollution will be stunning.

I'd say you almost certainly have the timing done wrong, but depending on how badly, you can easily be looking at broken rockers too. The exhaust side seems to be the first to break in these kind of situations. If only one breaks on the exhaust of each cylinder, the engine would still be able to idle correctly, but couldn't get enough air out to let fresh in, which would make tons of smoke.

Where in Nevada? I can fly out there and work on it, and if you are in Vegas, I know the area well so the travel costs would be minimized. I'm sorry you had it done a year ago, I've been out there a couple times this year already.

It sounds crazy, but I had a CRD over boost like crazy with a cracked turbo vacuum line. I just thought it must work opposite of how you'd think it would, but I never looked into it, just replaced the hose and instantly solved the problem.

ibedonc · **Joined:** Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:40 pm **Posts:** 236

I am glad my turbos do not have vacuum hoses

dirtmover · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:42 am

If you suspect it might be off, why not check it?

smoked · **Joined:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:10 am **Posts:** 3

Exact symptoms I am experiencing after a timing change this past weekend. I know the Crank had a little slop from where the pin went in to lock it and might have nudged it on the wrong tooth or possibly the injection pump off one? Not sure what I would need to do as well. Starts up a lot rougher as well such as used to start up on 1 or 2 cranks, now more like 10, Black smoke heavy when I romp on it, a little sluggish on the top end, warms up quicker than normal. Idles fine and runs OK, just experiencing the same symptoms.

JoeStretch · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:21 am

I am not getting any codes, I will check the turbo vacuum line, I am not sure how to check the timing to see if it is off, other than taking off the timing cover is there a way to tell? I am in Reno , I just found the reccomended shops thread on this Forum and came across K&D in fallon, I wish that I would have taken it there. I Talked with Kenny he said that it could be off. Are there any checks that I can do to confirm it?

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:23 am

Where are you two located? There might be someone local willing to help. You might send Geordi a message as he's the traveling timing belt master.

Or, get ready for a lot more pain if you take it back to the same people that screwed it up in the first place, as some people have ended up with destroyed engines.

You can verify the timing with just the cam pins and some work. There's a guy on ebay selling them for about $35-45 I think. Read the correct way to do a timing belt thread if you want to learn the process :2cents:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:55 am

smoked wrote:

Exact symptoms I am experiencing after a timing change this past weekend. I know the Crank had a little slop from where the pin went in to lock it and might have nudged it on the wrong tooth or possibly the injection pump off one? Not sure what I would need to do as well. Starts up a lot rougher as well such as used to start up on 1 or 2 cranks, now more like 10, Black smoke heavy when I romp on it, a little sluggish on the top end, warms up quicker than normal. Idles fine and runs OK, just experiencing the same symptoms.

Checking the timing is pretty easy.
Remove the plugs that the intake and exhaust pins go into.
Hand crank the motor till one or both of the cam holes line up.
Insert the cam locking pins and use a 6mm (I think) allen wrench to pin the crank.
If they all go in you are good. If not, well... :roll:

That said, being one degree off should not cause huge drivability problems.
Being several degrees off will cause the pistons to impact the valves, bending and/or breaking rocker arms or valves.

So check all the other things first.
Make sure your boost hoses are in good condition and tightly clamped.
Make sure all your sensors and wires are properly connected.
This injector #4 and rail pressure solenoid connectors look exactly the same and could be mixed up.
Its also common for folks to forget to connect the sensor on the air filter box lid.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:00 am

flash7210 wrote:

smoked wrote:

Exact symptoms I am experiencing after a timing change this past weekend. I know the Crank had a little slop from where the pin went in to lock it and might have nudged it on the wrong tooth or possibly the injection pump off one? Not sure what I would need to do as well. Starts up a lot rougher as well such as used to start up on 1 or 2 cranks, now more like 10, Black smoke heavy when I romp on it, a little sluggish on the top end, warms up quicker than normal. Idles fine and runs OK, just experiencing the same symptoms.

Checking the timing is pretty easy.
Remove the plugs that the intake and exhaust pins go into.
Hand crank the motor till one or both of the cam holes line up.
Insert the cam locking pins and use a 6mm (I think) allen wrench to pin the crank.
If they all go in you are good. If not, well... :roll:

That said, being one degree off should not cause huge drivability problems.
Being several degrees off will cause the pistons to impact the valves, bending and/or breaking rocker arms or valves.

So check all the other things first.
Make sure your boost hoses are in good condition and tightly clamped.
Make sure all your sensors and wires are properly connected.
This injector #4 and rail pressure solenoid connectors look exactly the same and could be mixed up.
Its also common for folks to forget to connect the sensor on the air filter box lid.

Good points! There're a lot of things that can get put back together wrong that can cause this also. Just scratch the #4 injector & sensor wires off the list because it won't start at all if they are swapped :dead:

smoked · **Joined:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:10 am **Posts:** 3

I'm up in Northwestern Ohio, but Cams i know were locked in place with zero slop during the whole process. I'm thinking the engine is either retarded by either the injector pump by being off a key there or it could be the Crank that I was off on one there too. I plan on tearing the whole thing down tonight and diving back into it.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:26 pm

JoeStretch wrote:

Are there any checks that I can do to confirm it?

You can use the pins as others have suggested or if you have access to a boresope you can look directly into the locking pin holes. You should be able to do this without removing anything apart from the two caps on the cams but IIRC it's probably a bit tight on the intake side around the alternator.

I believe they can run (badly) a full tooth off without damage which would be 3 1/4 degrees.

olypopper · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:46 pm

" injector pump by being off a key "

Not good info. Pump timing has zero influence.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:15 pm

yeah, not the pump. Symptoms sound just like reports of one tooth off on the crank. This is why I tell people to forget the crank pin... Make sure the crank witness is exactly at 3 o'clock, and that the bolt holes on the crank sprocket are exactly vertical and horizontal, and you'll be good. Turn the crank exactly two revolutions, and make sure the pins go in with no more than a hair of movement of the crank either way (bump it slightly). The witness must still be at 3 o'clock and holes vertical and horizontal. If the cam pins go in easily, it's timed correctly.

smoked · **Joined:** Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:10 am **Posts:** 3

My issue is now resolved and am back in time, I was off one tooth at the Crank. Thanks everyone for the advice.

JoeStretch · **Posted:** Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:54 pm

Finally ordered a timing belt pin kit off of ebay, after a few rotations of the crankshaft the intake and exhaust pins go in both cams and i am able to get the the pin through the crankshaft witness hole after bumping the ratchet a hair. What concerns me is on the TB tensioner there is a wierd notch taken out of it by the spring pin. I dont think that extra notch should be there,

When i push on the belt , the tab with the notch on the tensioner rotates CW over an inch. There also seems to be a almost an inch of slop on the lower part of the belt, not tight like in the youtube videos i watched. Should there be this much movement in the tensioner? Or any movement at all?

I Think that i need a new tensioner,any thoughts? I dont think the belt was tensioned properly and i may be one tooth of on the crankshaft, ill try to post a link to a short video that shows how much play is in the belt.

symptoms of the timing belt being off 1 degree off?

Who is online