dirtmover wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
....I got it because the other solutions sucked.
The only thing that sucks about the OE housing is that you can't change out the 'stat. Kap used the OE housing in his modification and then HDS went on to copy it which is testimony to the fact that it's a sound design. At 4X the price for the same functionality the HDS housing simply doesn't appear to make economic sense over the OE 'stat even if you do have to replace it now and again.
Now, if someone can come up with some actual data comparing engine heat up time, cabin heat up time, ability to maintain design temperature under different operating conditions, fuel economy numbers etc. then it may be a lot easier to judge whether one can justify sucking up the hefty cost. It would be nice to see a properly conducted study comparing a
properly functioning OE versus HDS housings with different temperature 'stats installed.
The study would be time-consuming and expensive to do. I do know that the best solution to an under-performing part is to manufacture a superior part that imitates to function of the under-performing part.
To make the assumption that you can change the basic design and expect it to perform as well or have no consequences is playing with fire. Flash7210 has already stated that he had a cracked cylinder head in the area of the exhaust valve seats during the time he was using an inline thermostat in conjunction with a failed, intact O.E. thermostat assembly... this is precisely the area that would warp or crack due to the bypass cooling circuit being shut off.
I guarantee that the disabled bypass circuit was the reason it happened. The gutted O.E. thermostat housing used in conjunction with the Meziere in-line thermostat housing is a better solution, for the following reasons...
1) ...it does indeed address the problem of the coolant bypass circuit being shut down with the inline t-stat being used in conjunction with an intact O.E. thermostat assembly.
2) ... the Meziere in-line thermostat housing allows the owner to change out a commonly available thermostat, which is no doubt available in several temperature ratings. The additional advantage of using the Miziere product is that the thermostat it uses is LARGE, and therefore will offer a significant increase in flow over the tiny in-hose thermostat promoted by some folks here and on Facebook. This increase in flow would be required if the engine is being worked hard, and is something I incorporated in the design of the H.D.S. Model 001.
However, this is where my praise stops. It is simply wrong to assume what is good for an old Ford small block V-8 - as described in the thread flash 7210 started, (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82256), will be good for the V.M. Motori R428. Today's engines produce a LOT more power per cubic inch than they did even as little as 20 years ago... temperature control of the engine is MUCH more critical today than it was back then. It is foolish to assume that you know more than the engineers who designed the engine in the first place. The problem with the O.E. thermostat assembly is NOT with its design functionality... making claims that is over-engineered and too complicated is nothing more than sheer speculation by geordi. The problem is that they designed the unit NOT TO BE SERVICEABLE, and that they used cheap materials so that it would not last very long, (the manufacturers, of course, do not believe this is a problem because they want to pull as much money of you as possible). There is also the issue of the manufacturer using a way too cool thermostat valve, but I am told that this was not a mistake as they were trying to control the level of oxides of nitrogen pollution, (?).
Flash7210 states the following...
"It’s not exactly the same as yours because mine has no provision for blocking off the bypass outlet once the main t-stat valve opens. But it serves the same purpose by allowing any common off-the-shelf t-stat to be installed and ensuring that the bypass outlet is never blocked off during the warm up cycle."
He is essentially correct in stating this. However, his modifications and the functional effects they offer are most definitely not like the ones offered in the H.D.S. Model 001. The ONLY similarities they offer are those that are mentioned above; the bypass is not blocked, and the Miziere in-line housing offers the use of a large and readily available thermostat valve... the similarities end there.
Here are the problems with the gutted O.E. thermostat housing/Miziere in-line housing set-up...
1) ... the thermostat valve is a significant distance from the engine. This is not something that is desirable for accurate control of the engine temperature.
2) ... with no valve opening and closing the bypass circuit in conjunction with the opening and closing of the main valve to the radiator, (main valve open/bypass valve closed & main valve closed/bypass valve open),
you will always have a parasitic bleed-off of coolant through the bypass circuit, even in conditions that require ALL of your hot engine coolant be going to the radiator. This issue becomes VERY important if you are doing the following...
A) ... towing a load in hot weather.
B) ... running a modified engine with increased power & torque.
Geordi makes the following claim...
"The flow from the water pump is extreme. Water will want to move to the paths of least resistance, but that doesn't mean that the others will have zero flow. There is plenty of water pump to provide for everyone."
I highly doubt that Geordi has actually measured the flow rate of the water pump in the CRD engine, and therefore for him to assert what works in the VW 1.9 TDI engine will also work in the R428 is playing a little fast and loose with the truth. The simple fact of the matter is that NO MATTER the flow rate of the water pump, you will have parasitic bleed off of coolant into the bypass under all conditions with the gutted O.E. housing/in-line thermostat valve set-up. That situation is simply not desirable, especially on modified engines.
Essentially, what we have here are three "solutions" to the Liberty CRD over-cooling problem.
The first solution - simply installing the inline, (Stant in-hose thermostat valve), in conjunction with an intact O.E. thermostat assembly - has proven to be a risky choice. You do this modification, and you risk a warped/cracked/otherwise damaged cylinder head and/or head gasket problems.
The second solution - gutting the O.E. thermostat assembly and using a Miziere in-line thermostat housing - is better as it opens up the bypass circuit, but creates potential problems elsewhere.
The third solution - the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 direct replacement engine thermostat assembly - has no disadvantages whatsoever, and was designed with the help of an engineer at Stant Corporation to assure that you get a PROPER FUNCTIONING replacement to the terrible O.E. part. We simply took the design of the O.E. part, and made it better by offering a housing that allows you to replace only the valve itself. We also gave it features that you cannot get with the other two solutions; two accessory threaded ports for the installation of an aftermarket engine temperature gauge and a conversion to an electric cooling fan.
CRD owners have a choice, although I would strongly suggest the first solution is a bad idea, so you really only have two choices... you can either choose the second or third solutions. Choose the second solution, and you will have a modification that will likely be able to live with. Or, choose to purchase an H.D.S. Model 001 and have a thermostat that actually performs better, and you will be REALLY satisfied with, (look at the latest postings on my thread...
viewtopic.php?f=169&t=75791).
The price of the Model 001 is expensive. There is no doubt about that, but that is simply something that is beyond my control due to the limited numbers of Liberty CRDs sold in North America... the numbers here simply do not justify the development and creation of a proper mold to cast the housing and cap with. If anybody can get me a contract for as few as 5000 thermostat assemblies, I can go to my bank and get the financing to get a mold made... until then the customer is just going to have to put up with the superior qualities of a CNC machined housing... sorry.