my 06 got a new one today , 2nd one in this one , the old one started taking a long time to get hot
217k miles on it now

_________________
05 liberty CRD Limited - suncoast TC , GDE Turbo , GDE TCM Tune 2gen OEM filter head, stant 195 tsat, Autoandart Window Fix, New TB kit ~190k (Geordi)
06 Liberty CRD Limited - stant 195 tstat Autoandart Window Fix, 2gen OEM filter head, New TB kit ~180k (Geordi), GDE Turbo, GDE TCM ECO tune

Put a HDS in it!

_________________
2016 Ram 2500 4x4, 6.7 Cummins, 68RFE, Crew Cab
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4, 5.9 Cummins, 47RH, Reg Cab
2005 Liberty CRD,fixed the rockers and a couple more things,GDE Hot tune,Weeks Stage 1 and 2 EGR delete,Hot Diesel solutions Tstat assembly(wonderful heat!), ARP studs, OME 1.5" lift.....thanks Seth!

Hmm... $500 versus $8. I'm not great at math, but I think there might be a couple of important zeros missing from the Stant price. Can't argue with that.

All thermostats go eventually, and they are all chinese trash. That housing is nice that he makes, but it isn't the housing that makes it a thermostat - it is the $8 thing inside it. Better to not spend the big bucks unless they are just laying around, eh?

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

You sound like one of the bean counters at Chrysler making decisions and leading to crappy parts on our Jeeps! All it will take is one good overheat and then he's buying a cylinder head. Hmmm.......2500.00 vs 500.00. Seems like easy math to me, but then again, I'm a mechanic and don't like doing things twice.

_________________
2016 Ram 2500 4x4, 6.7 Cummins, 68RFE, Crew Cab
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4, 5.9 Cummins, 47RH, Reg Cab
2005 Liberty CRD,fixed the rockers and a couple more things,GDE Hot tune,Weeks Stage 1 and 2 EGR delete,Hot Diesel solutions Tstat assembly(wonderful heat!), ARP studs, OME 1.5" lift.....thanks Seth!

Nothing against the HDS thermostat, it a great product, but there are other ways of accomplishing the same goal without spending $500.
I modified my factory t-stat housing and combined it with a Meziere in-line.
It may not be as nice looking as the HDS but it functions the same.
And I did it for under $100.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

be nice to have that housing , but I do not have $500 for one and so far the $8 stant has worked

I only need it a few months of the year in Texas , plus I just found out I am a Grandfather

finally found my 33 year old son from ex-wife that hid him from me and discovered the 3 year old grandson

http://www.star-c.com/Ethan-1.jpg

so you know where more of my dollars are going

_________________
05 liberty CRD Limited - suncoast TC , GDE Turbo , GDE TCM Tune 2gen OEM filter head, stant 195 tsat, Autoandart Window Fix, New TB kit ~190k (Geordi)
06 Liberty CRD Limited - stant 195 tstat Autoandart Window Fix, 2gen OEM filter head, New TB kit ~180k (Geordi), GDE Turbo, GDE TCM ECO tune

I'm with flash and geordi on this. The HDS is a work of art and belongs in a display cabinet rather than in a dirty engine bay.

I'm not aware of any engine damage that can be directly attributed to the use of an inline 'stat however I'm not too keen on that solution because of the lack of bypass and especially in conjunction with a failed OE stat.

I've got a gutted OE 'stat housing that I may use in conjunction with an inline or try to put it back together with a Kia 'stat for poops and giggles but failing that the other option is to stick with the OE 'stat at $110 a pop. At almost 10 years I'm still on the second OE 'stat. At this rate I can go another 20 years with OE 'stats before I even get close to matching the cost of the HDS.

It's easy to speculate and theorize on the benefits of the HDS thermostat but as far as I'm aware none of the claims have been backed up with any empirical data. Apart from the fact it's pretty and allows for easy replacement I don't see any real advantage.

_________________
Share your ideas freely at https://www.facebook.com/groups/libertydiesels/

So if your tstat housing is gutted, what prevents coolant from recirculating instead of flowing to the radiator? I thought the oe tstat block the recirculation channel as it opened.

The stant inline, and any inline, is a bandaid at best in my eyes. The fact that a 1/16" hole needs to be drilled in it to make it function shows that. I couldn't wait to get that thing out but sure as hell wasn't gunna buy an oe housing after my first one was dead from the day I bought the thing with 42k miles. I bought the 4J tstat not because I thought it would magically make my jeep get 40 mpg and be able to tow a million tons without overheating, I got it becaise the other solutions sucked.

This is a general statement not directed at anyone in particular, but if money is an issue you have the wrong car, sorry. 30 mpg or not this thing eats money. We all love these things here, but its an irrational love becaise this is not a "good" car as it came from the factory.

_________________
2006 CRD - GTB2056 turbo by Dieselguy86, Eco Trans Tune, Lift Pump, Week's, HDS Tstat, Racor Filter, ARP's, OME 790's+Top Plate, JBA 2.5", JBA UCA, Moab's+265/75R16, ARB Bull Bar, 4.10's, TrueTracs

"irrational love".....Well said, Masshole!

_________________
2016 Ram 2500 4x4, 6.7 Cummins, 68RFE, Crew Cab
1995 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4, 5.9 Cummins, 47RH, Reg Cab
2005 Liberty CRD,fixed the rockers and a couple more things,GDE Hot tune,Weeks Stage 1 and 2 EGR delete,Hot Diesel solutions Tstat assembly(wonderful heat!), ARP studs, OME 1.5" lift.....thanks Seth!

Thats a good question. I'm glad you asked.

The outlet to the radiator is larger and therefore the path of least resistance. Yes, some coolant is always going through the bypass but the majority is going through the radiator.

This is the thread I started when I first modified the thermostat. I never updated it and added the in-line thermostat in July.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82256
I ran all summer like this.
Coolant temps stayed in the 194-198 range and would occasionally get up to 205 under hard acceleration, never any hotter. And the gauge never went to the right of vertical.

If you think about it, coolant is always bypassing the thermostat. The small de-gas line to the top of the coolant tank and the heater core always have coolant flowing through them wheather the thermostat is open or closed.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

Flash7210:

You have not mentioned how you "modified" the O.E. thermostat assembly... perhaps you can let everyone know that the details of how you modified the O.E. housing are on that link you posted.

Curious minds want to know how you think your modified O.E. unit functions the same as a Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly and accomplishes the same thing.

There are some important details that you are leaving out in that thread you posted. You start it by admitting that you were running and inline thermostat valve with a failed O.E. thermostat assembly, and that you were waiting for a replacement cylinder head. Why did you have to replace the cylinder head? Was this the cracked cylinder head you wrote about in yet another thread...

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=79984&start=80

geordi:

The Stant 48792 thermostat valve that is used in the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 engine thermostat assembly is most definitely not made in China. It is manufactured in the U.S., and I know this for a fact because I had to research this for my North American Free Trade Application. Blanket statements such as the ones you make above do not contribute at all to the conversation.

Apparently you know little about manufacturing and design. While the thermostat valve is the functioning part of both the O.E. unit and the Model 001, the housing that encases it is critical for directing the coolant in the proper directions. What you are saying is akin to stating that the only thing that matters in a gun is the action, and not the barrel, the stock, the trigger assembly or the optics.

For someone who makes a living repairing R428 engines, it sure would hurt your bottom line if the engine suddenly started to become reliable, eh...

Jeff, I think you have a nice product that is an elegant design to duplicate an over-engineered original solution to a problem that has plagued vehicles since the beginnings of motorized travel.

The factory design could just as easily be an empty junction (gutted) housing, and let the actual thermostat function live in the front door to the radiator, and the system would still function perfectly because the hoses have differing diameters.

Another example for this is actually the 1.9l VW TDI. I'm thinking about this because I've been working on one for my sister and got a good look at the cooling loops while I was flushing it and preparing for a torque converter swap.

There is a large assembly on the end of the head that connects to the heater core, the EGR cooler, the EGR valve, the transmission, the radiator, the oil cooler, the water tank, and probably to a german hydroelectric power station too. Hoses everywhere, and all junctioned off of each other and looping back to a second large junction just under the outlet junction. The radiator however, has just one line coming in (that connects to that big junction) and one line out - with the factory thermostat stuck in it, inside the engine wall.

Each of the outflow lines is a different diameter from the main that feeds the radiator, so there is a continuous flow through everything that is non-radiator, even when the thermostat is opened. Hotspots cannot form because the water is always moving.

The Jeep is similar. The connection to the tank is always flowing water, and the heat loop (for safety reasons) to the cabin must also always be flowing water. But they are at a different diameter from the main to the radiator, so they continue to flow even when the thermostat is open from failure.

The flow from the water pump is extreme. Water will want to move to the paths of least resistance, but that doesn't mean that the others will have zero flow. There is plenty of water pump to provide for everyone.

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

It was a really simple mod.
1. split the top off the factory thermostat housing
2. remove the thermostat thingy from inside
3. re-assemble factory housing and seal it up with JBweld
4. install Meziere in-line thermostat housing in upper radiator hose that will allow me to use any common SB Chevy thermostat inside

Its not exactly the same as yours because mine has no provision for blocking off the bypass outlet once the main t-stat valve opens. But it serves the same purpose by allowing any common off-the-shelf t-stat to be installed and ensuring that the bypass outlet is never blocked off during the warm up cycle.

The cylinder head was replaced because it had cracks around the exhaust valve seats of cylinders 2,3, and 4. The head was not warped and the head gasket showed no obvious signs of a leak. At no point while I have been driving it was there any indication of over heating the engine.

Why did the head crack?
Could be several reasons: heat, stress, poor casting by manufacturer, or all the above.
I know my case is not unique. A few others have experienced the same.

I dont feel that anyone should follow my example with this thermostat mod.
Yours is far superior.
Yours is a piece that is well engineered and machined with precision.
You already have many happy customers to back you up.
Mine is held together with JBweld.

But I dont feel that your thermostat is a necessity and I will challenge anyone who says that it is.
Its ok for us to have different opinions on the matter.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

The only thing that sucks about the OE housing is that you can't change out the 'stat. Kap used the OE housing in his modification and then HDS went on to copy it which is testimony to the fact that it's a sound design. At 4X the price for the same functionality the HDS housing simply doesn't appear to make economic sense over the OE 'stat even if you do have to replace it now and again.

Now, if someone can come up with some actual data comparing engine heat up time, cabin heat up time, ability to maintain design temperature under different operating conditions, fuel economy numbers etc then it may be a lot easier to judge whether one can justify sucking up the hefty cost. It would be nice to see a properly conducted study comparing a properly functioning OE versus HDS housings with different temperature 'stats installed.

_________________
Share your ideas freely at https://www.facebook.com/groups/libertydiesels/

This is a very good point. Data such as this does not exist for any of the solutions, so until it does, all we are doing is advocating on faith and feelings. Research takes the emotional attachments out of it, and puts everyone on a level playing field to let the winners surface on their own.

Jeff, I'm certainly impressed by the design quality of your unit, and I know that prototyping and small batch manufacture is horrendously expensive and complicated. I will happily advocate people buy yours if there is a clear benefit over any other option that can be backed up with data, I'm not married to any particular solution. The only reason I currently suggest the in-hose is that it succeeds on two fronts: It seems to get the job done at the same level of performance as the original, and it is cheap enough to not bother someone when it fails out again. But I also have no data to prove it is "better" or "worse" than the factory option.

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Case in point, there's even one guy on Jeff's thermostat thread suggesting it cured his shudder. Of course, I can't completely rule out that there may be some cause and effect related to a slightly higher operating temperature but I'm more inclined to think that dropping 5 big notes on a 'stat can make anyone a believer.

_________________
Share your ideas freely at https://www.facebook.com/groups/libertydiesels/

I can only add this to the discussion. My original thermostat failed at ~50K miles. I put in an inline stant per recommendations on this site and it worked flawlessly until The timing belt was changed at 96K. At that time I put in another OEM thermostat that I had bought for $80. If I have this one fail I will probably put in another inline stant until the next timing belt change. I can't see spending $500 on a thermostat when that money can be put to use elsewhere. If the cost was $250 or so then I might do it. At this current rate it will take 5 OEM thermostats & 5 Stants to purchase the HDS unit. I only hope the CRD lasts that long.

The study would be time-consuming and expensive to do. I do know that the best solution to an under-performing part is to manufacture a superior part that imitates to function of the under-performing part.

To make the assumption that you can change the basic design and expect it to perform as well or have no consequences is playing with fire. Flash7210 has already stated that he had a cracked cylinder head in the area of the exhaust valve seats during the time he was using an inline thermostat in conjunction with a failed, intact O.E. thermostat assembly... this is precisely the area that would warp or crack due to the bypass cooling circuit being shut off. I guarantee that the disabled bypass circuit was the reason it happened.

The gutted O.E. thermostat housing used in conjunction with the Meziere in-line thermostat housing is a better solution, for the following reasons...

1) ...it does indeed address the problem of the coolant bypass circuit being shut down with the inline t-stat being used in conjunction with an intact O.E. thermostat assembly.

2) ... the Meziere in-line thermostat housing allows the owner to change out a commonly available thermostat, which is no doubt available in several temperature ratings. The additional advantage of using the Miziere product is that the thermostat it uses is LARGE, and therefore will offer a significant increase in flow over the tiny in-hose thermostat promoted by some folks here and on Facebook. This increase in flow would be required if the engine is being worked hard, and is something I incorporated in the design of the H.D.S. Model 001.

However, this is where my praise stops. It is simply wrong to assume what is good for an old Ford small block V-8 - as described in the thread flash 7210 started, (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82256), will be good for the V.M. Motori R428. Today's engines produce a LOT more power per cubic inch than they did even as little as 20 years ago... temperature control of the engine is MUCH more critical today than it was back then.

It is foolish to assume that you know more than the engineers who designed the engine in the first place. The problem with the O.E. thermostat assembly is NOT with its design functionality... making claims that is over-engineered and too complicated is nothing more than sheer speculation by geordi. The problem is that they designed the unit NOT TO BE SERVICEABLE, and that they used cheap materials so that it would not last very long, (the manufacturers, of course, do not believe this is a problem because they want to pull as much money of you as possible). There is also the issue of the manufacturer using a way too cool thermostat valve, but I am told that this was not a mistake as they were trying to control the level of oxides of nitrogen pollution, (?).

Flash7210 states the following...

"It’s not exactly the same as yours because mine has no provision for blocking off the bypass outlet once the main t-stat valve opens. But it serves the same purpose by allowing any common off-the-shelf t-stat to be installed and ensuring that the bypass outlet is never blocked off during the warm up cycle."

He is essentially correct in stating this. However, his modifications and the functional effects they offer are most definitely not like the ones offered in the H.D.S. Model 001. The ONLY similarities they offer are those that are mentioned above; the bypass is not blocked, and the Miziere in-line housing offers the use of a large and readily available thermostat valve... the similarities end there.

Here are the problems with the gutted O.E. thermostat housing/Miziere in-line housing set-up...

1) ... the thermostat valve is a significant distance from the engine. This is not something that is desirable for accurate control of the engine temperature.

2) ... with no valve opening and closing the bypass circuit in conjunction with the opening and closing of the main valve to the radiator, (main valve open/bypass valve closed & main valve closed/bypass valve open), you will always have a parasitic bleed-off of coolant through the bypass circuit, even in conditions that require ALL of your hot engine coolant be going to the radiator. This issue becomes VERY important if you are doing the following...

A) ... towing a load in hot weather.
B) ... running a modified engine with increased power & torque.

Geordi makes the following claim...

"The flow from the water pump is extreme. Water will want to move to the paths of least resistance, but that doesn't mean that the others will have zero flow. There is plenty of water pump to provide for everyone."

I highly doubt that Geordi has actually measured the flow rate of the water pump in the CRD engine, and therefore for him to assert what works in the VW 1.9 TDI engine will also work in the R428 is playing a little fast and loose with the truth. The simple fact of the matter is that NO MATTER the flow rate of the water pump, you will have parasitic bleed off of coolant into the bypass under all conditions with the gutted O.E. housing/in-line thermostat valve set-up. That situation is simply not desirable, especially on modified engines.

Essentially, what we have here are three "solutions" to the Liberty CRD over-cooling problem.

The first solution - simply installing the inline, (Stant in-hose thermostat valve), in conjunction with an intact O.E. thermostat assembly - has proven to be a risky choice. You do this modification, and you risk a warped/cracked/otherwise damaged cylinder head and/or head gasket problems.

The second solution - gutting the O.E. thermostat assembly and using a Miziere in-line thermostat housing - is better as it opens up the bypass circuit, but creates potential problems elsewhere.

The third solution - the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 direct replacement engine thermostat assembly - has no disadvantages whatsoever, and was designed with the help of an engineer at Stant Corporation to assure that you get a PROPER FUNCTIONING replacement to the terrible O.E. part. We simply took the design of the O.E. part, and made it better by offering a housing that allows you to replace only the valve itself. We also gave it features that you cannot get with the other two solutions; two accessory threaded ports for the installation of an aftermarket engine temperature gauge and a conversion to an electric cooling fan.

CRD owners have a choice, although I would strongly suggest the first solution is a bad idea, so you really only have two choices... you can either choose the second or third solutions. Choose the second solution, and you will have a modification that will likely be able to live with. Or, choose to purchase an H.D.S. Model 001 and have a thermostat that actually performs better, and you will be REALLY satisfied with, (look at the latest postings on my thread... viewtopic.php?f=169&t=75791).

The price of the Model 001 is expensive. There is no doubt about that, but that is simply something that is beyond my control due to the limited numbers of Liberty CRDs sold in North America... the numbers here simply do not justify the development and creation of a proper mold to cast the housing and cap with. If anybody can get me a contract for as few as 5000 thermostat assemblies, I can go to my bank and get the financing to get a mold made... until then the customer is just going to have to put up with the superior qualities of a CNC machined housing... sorry.

Here's some data points for everyone.

I often travel over a long mountain grade at 55-65 mph. I have many (more than 50) round trips with 2 different CRD's. Both had the mechanical fans removed.

1.) 180k miles. Inline clamshell with the 1/16" hole drilled, failed open stock thermostat. FFD electric fan, AC gutted, AC cooler gutted, AC fan gutted (much better air flow across the radiator). GDE Eco tune (cooler EGT's, engine SHOULD run cooler than other one). Free flow exhaust (bottleneck removed, magnaflow muffler).
Poor cooling on grade, and would have to slow to 35mph, and oftentimes pull over to let the E-fan catch up in hot weather.

2.) 164k miles. Just a stock CRD with failed open stock thermostat. Only mod was removing the mechanical fan. Even without a tune, or high flow electric fan, and the EGR active, and the restricted exhaust, and the layers of crap in front of the radiator, and some air intrusion (no lift pump, and would go into limp mode if I floored it), and other deficiencies, this jeep still cooled much better.

My conclusions:

1. The inline is restrictive to coolant flow, and thereby cools poorly.
2. You would be much better with a failed OPEN stock thermostat for towing or big mountain grades, versus an inline.
3. I haven't tested the HDS yet, but I know it flows more coolant, and expect it to cool even better than a failed open stock stat.

If you live where there aren't significant mountain grades, and you don't tow heavy, and you don't have really high temps, then maybe an inline is for you. But, has anyone tried the hotter of the available thermostats out there, like the one's Jeff has available for his thermostat (203?)? I would not want to try the warmer one in the inline after my experiences, and I venture to say you'll get an additional .5 mpg with the warmer of the two. I think I had a 198 in my inline.

Now, since many people are rolling around with a failed thermostat that's costing them at least 4 mpg's. And, just about everyone has some time spent on a failed open thermostat. And, the stock one only lasts 30-70k roughly. The gap closes very quickly. If fact, just like GDE advertises with the increased 3-4 mpg's paying for the tune in what, 30k miles? It's the same equation over a failed stock stat.
Even if you're really on the ball, and you replace the factory thermostat (what a pain in the butt) right when it fails. It runs the engine too cool ALL of the time even when new! The spread between it and the HDS is probably 2 mpg, and will pay for the unit quickly as well.

Lastly, if the factory stat fails closed (I've had one that failed partially closed, and made it cool poorly, just like my clamshell inline), you may need to quickly change it, but you need to get your hands on a $100 unit, and it's a pain to change, so good luck. With the HDS, it's a cheap, readily available part, and a few screws, or maybe you can just remove the thermostat like the old cars if it fails closed? Easy to do on the side of the road (or 50 miles in the back-country for me). You can forget about fixing a stock one away from your tools, goo-gone, and ton of disassembly, and reassembly.

Well, I'm all out of air. Maybe I'll ramble on more about this after some more coffee. But, if you ever come out West to the Rockies. I would advise against an inline. I will be posting my results after a summer with the HDS, and I am very optimistic that I will be able to set the cruise control over the big grades when it's in the 90's without overheating.
Thanks Jeff!

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete