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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:31 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
Quote:


And engineers arent perfect. Sometimes things DONTgo as planned and a work around must be found.
Thats why I suggested:
Quote:
What if the VM engineers never considered emissions controls and actually got it right by using a thermostat that opens at 175?
Maybe they recognized that a cast iron block and a aluminum head heat up and expand at different rates and using a 175 thermostat was their way of controlling thermal expansion of a weak cylinder head.

These are fair comments that only Chrysler/VM can answer. It's certainly not unreasonable to assume that a thermostat with a lower temperature than would normally be regarded as optimal was selected as a work around because their actual measurements did not align with their thermal modeling and simulations.

I see I made a typo and corrected it.
None the less, you got my point.

I know, lots of "what ifs" and "armchair engineering" here.

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Last edited by flash7210 on Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:37 pm 
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[/quote] These are fair comments that only Chrysler/VM can answer. It's certainly not unreasonable to assume that a thermostat with a lower temperature than would normally be regarded as optimal was selected as a work around because their actual measurements did not align with their thermal modeling and simulations.[/quote]

This may be fair comment in most circumstances, but as I have just pointed out in my posting above VW has had turbo-diesel engines with aluminum heads on iron blocks for many years, and they have had no cylinder head/gasket issues that have been related to running with a hotter thermostat valve.

Before the pollution control systems were installed on the V.M. Motori R425 and R428 engines, they were quite reliable engines in markets around the world with 100s of millions of miles driven on them. The R425 is still used as the engine of choice in the famous TX4 Taxi Cabs used in the U.K. If they had - as people claim here - "weak" cylinder heads, then that problem would have been solved years ago with updated cylinder heads even before we got the R428 here in North America.

The best reason I have seen for the low thermostat opening temperature is that it was probably mandated by the Environmental Protection Agency as a means of combating oxides of nitrogen pollution. Any self-respecting engineer worth his or her salt would not do this to a turbo-diesel engine unless they were forced to do so by political fiat or by the number-crunchers at head office to interfere with the engines reliability in order to make more money on servicing the engine.


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:20 pm 
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wow , never thought this would turn into 5 pages of posts

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:03 pm 
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I thought it would go longer but everyone just gave up.


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:12 pm 
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joelukex4 wrote:
I thought it would go longer but everyone just gave up.


They gave up because they do not have reasonable arguments or speculation regarding these issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:05 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
joelukex4 wrote:
I thought it would go longer but everyone just gave up.


They gave up because they do not have reasonable arguments or speculation regarding these issues.

No, still here :BANANA:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
3) If I were to go with a modified O.E. design, the machine shop would not guarantee the work, because they are cutting open and machining cheap castings, which were never designed to be used for that purpose. There is no possible way to make the modified O.E. thermostat housing even as strong as a stock O.E. thermostat assembly, let alone the Model 001s CNC machined housing and cap. I have some major concerns with that as it is going to be used in a heated and pressurized closed loop cooling system. The modified O.E. thermostat would therefore be sold with no guarantees whatsoever.

If you actually look at Kap's design, there are only 2 skinny 6mm studs holding the thing together, because there is only enough pot metal in 2 areas of the casting to take at the most a 6mm threaded hole. Kap's design also has no less than 2 gaskets in the housing, along with the O.E. thermostat-to-engine gasket, for a total of 3 gaskets... each of these gaskets are a weak link in the design. As an example of how cheap the O.E. thermostat assembly is was when I had to send an unfinished assembled Model 001 to a customer in an emergency because his CRDs thermostat not only failed, but the HOUSING CRACKED AT THE CRIMPED SEAM AND WAS LEAKING COOLANT.

Your assumptions are simply incorrect because they are based on a single proposal from Kap which was overly complex and not well thought out from a manufacturing or logistical perspective. Look at the solution proposed by Sargeindustries in this thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83945

His solution is elegant, cheap, extremely easy to manufacture and does not rely on 3rd party parts that might go out of production. It uses the same larger Hemi thermostat as you, relies on a single seal on the 'stat itself and I believe a temp sensor could easily be added. The refurbished housing, while admittedly not as robust as yours, is at least equal to or exceeds the OE housing in strength. I admit there would be some logistical challenges to overcome but I have priced it up and it would cost less that $100 to refurbish a housing and this is using a proto shop for the CNC work that is not the cheapest. This price point would permit a customer cost of around $200 which is below even what you originally estimated for the HDS when you started out a couple of years ago before the costs spiraled out of control.

As for your suggestion that the OE housing is weak, yes I have heard of a couple of instances of them leaking at the crimp plus some who reported they could rotate the 2 halves slightly. The one I took apart was solid at the crimp. This was another problem with Kap's modification as this weakness was preserved in his final product. This is the only "weak" part I've heard of and the Sargeindustries proposal completely overcomes this weakness.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Before the pollution control systems were installed on the V.M. Motori R425 and R428 engines, they were quite reliable engines in markets around the world with 100s of millions of miles driven on them. The R425 is still used as the engine of choice in the famous TX4 Taxi Cabs used in the U.K. If they had - as people claim here - "weak" cylinder heads, then that problem would have been solved years ago with updated cylinder heads even before we got the R428 here in North America.

The TX4 is actually quite a low volume production vehicle, less than the CRD. Admittedly the average mileage of a TX4 is probably a lot higher than the average CRD and the service has been a lot more severe. Maybe the reason that the "weak" cylinder head has not manifested itself in the TX4 is because the owners are not interfering with the design and allow it run at the temperature the engineers intended? Maybe the cylinder head isn't "weak" at all but regardless, if running cool really is as problematic as you keep telling us over and over again would the TX4 have made it the distance it has?

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
The best reason I have seen for the low thermostat opening temperature is that it was probably mandated by the Environmental Protection Agency as a means of combating oxides of nitrogen pollution. Any self-respecting engineer worth his or her salt would not do this to a turbo-diesel engine unless they were forced to do so by political fiat or by the number-crunchers at head office to interfere with the engines reliability in order to make more money on servicing the engine.

In the mid 80's small diesels started to gain popularity due to preferential tax treatment on diesel fuel. By the mid '90's market share of new vehicles was approaching 50%. During that period emissions standards were not dictating the thermostat opening temperature. I invite you to go investigate what temperatures these engines were running at. You'll find that most were in the low to mid 80°C's i.e. closer to the CRD temperature than the 200°F+ you're suggesting "Any self-respecting engineer worth his or her salt" would use. Of course, I'm open to the suggestion that engineers back then simply didn't know what they were doing.

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Last edited by dirtmover on Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:41 pm 
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I know I'm new here, but I had some ideas to contribute. I recently added the stant 13519 inline to help with a cabin heat issue I was having. My regular t-stat was working, but I wanted the coolant a little warmer. Let me say, with a 3k trailer in 6" of snow, the flow was not enough on the hills, and they were pretty small. I didn't overheat, but I did get to the 3/4 mark, and downshifted to increase water flow/fan speed. Since my regular t-stat was functioning, the overheating was caused by a lack of flow through the stant, not by the bypass remaining open and never passing through the radiator. I am just not confident with the flow of the stant at lower speeds, so I pulled it. A flush had improved the cabin heat issue anyway.

This thread got me brainstorming for some solutions. Obviously there is the extremely well built solution offered, but it is cost prohibitive for some of us. From my personal experience, rather than the stant, I would opt for a Meziere or something similar, with a high flow thermostat. That should have the capacity required, even in a towing situation. After that, I see 2 possible scenarios.

Scenario 1-gutted stock housing. This cooling system has 3 main sub-systems fed by a 5/8 line. EGR, Heater Core, and Bypass Engine Cooling. With a gutted housing, the theory is that there will be too much hot coolant recirculating back into the engine, even with the tstat open. The thing is, there are 2 other other similarly sized systems that create a bypass in this way all the time, the heater core, and the the EGR. Eliminate one of those, and, in theory, the system should be closer to balanced again. Many no longer have a need for EGR cooling, so that seems like the best candidate. Obviously the balance isn't perfect, having different resistance, but I would bet it's pretty darn close.

Scenario 2-failed stock housing. The bypass is blocked. A radiator hose with a 5/8 T-fitting, immediately before the inline thermostat could feed the bypass loop. The other balancing theory from scenario 1 would apply. I wonder if there is an inline t-stat housing with enough room to drill and tig weld the 5/8 hose fitting into the side.

Now, let's say I'm way off with my sub-system balancing theory. I'm wrong, and there is too much flow with an open bypass, causing overheating. They make 3/4 inch valves with 12v actuators. Getting one, that closes when energized, could be integrated with a radiator probe near the radiator inlet. When the the probe senses heat, it will energize the actuator, closing the bypass valve.

These are just some initial ideas, so I'd love some feedback. Again, I realize there is a more expensive solution that works great, but some of us are looking for solutions outside of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:41 pm 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
joelukex4 wrote:
I thought it would go longer but everyone just gave up.


They gave up because they do not have reasonable arguments or speculation regarding these issues.



I have about 500 reasonable arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:49 pm 
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With due deference to dirtmove a lot of thought and forum discussion went into Kap's design which from personal experience works quite well. Unfortunately production did suffer from his USAF transfer to Oz where the different electrical grid specs caused power tool problems.

With deference to NorthwoodsMike perhaps a brief, or maybe not so brief, copy of my prior explanation of how the OEM tstat works especially since it's effectively upside down.

"Keep in mind that our tstat functions upside down in the sense that it is the opening of the tstat that closes off the bypass port. The tstat has 4 outflows and 1 inflow. The inflow is the rectangular hole in the head where the tstat bolts on and ALL coolant passing thru the tstat comes thru there from the engine block. Once coolant enters the body of the tstat the ports in the middle of the tstat body direct coolant flow, regardless of tstat position, thru 1) the large plastic port to the viscous heater and then to the heater core (before you ask yes per the FSM coolant circulates thru the heater core all the time) and 2) the small port that is both the coolant overflow and degas (constant air bleed) port to the plastic tank on the firewall. When the engine is cold and the tstat is closed (see the above upside down comment) a large portion of the coolant is directly circulated out of 3) the bottom aluminum bypass port to the water pump inlet and then forced by the water pump thru the block and a small portion thru 4) the large front facing port to the radiator. As the coolant going thru the water pump directly to the engine warms up the tstat opens to reduce and eventually close off the flow thru the bypass port so that all the flow now goes thru the 2 middle ports (viscous heater and degas ports) and the front facing port to the radiator. As you can see if the tstat fails open or by opening too early, as ours typically does, coolant flow is directed away from the bypass port and to the radiator too early and is constantly over cooled hence the engine never fully warms up. In my experience during the summer a failing but not failed tstat can be masked by higher ambient temperatures and AC load."

The most common failure mod or the OEM tstat, per Kap's research, is open or opening early. In either case this decreases flow thru the bypass circuit and increases flow directly to the radiator. Given the "cold" nature of diesel engines this redirection of flow during the warm up cycle, especially in "cooler" weather without AC, effectively prevents the coolant from reaching operating temperature. Given that a "failed" OEM tstat causes early in whole or in part blocking of the bypass circuit and installation of an in line tstat in whole or in part blocks the outlet to the radiator anyone installing an inline tstat MUST take some step(s) to avoid both the bypass and outlet to the radiator being blocked AT THE SAME TIME lest catastrophic overheating occur hence I've offered the following comment in the past.

"In line tstat issues - On a cold engine an in line tstat will restrict the flow of coolant out that front facing port to the radiator until the in line tstat opens. This would have a tendency to increase the temperature within the block and tstat housing quicker at least until the bypass is closed or partially closed. However, as noted above with a properly functioning OEM tstat on a cold engine some flow is already directed thru that front facing port therefore IMHO if you are going to use an in line tstat it's important to do two things: 1) provide a flow path thru the skirt of the in line tstat (on the upper edge to allow air to escape) to mimic that OEM flow, ensure the inline warms up from that flow, and to prevent temperature spikes and 2) to place the temperature sensitive portion of the in line tstat as close as physically possible to the OEM front facing port and make sure it stays there. The obvious potential problem with an in line is the balance between flow provided to the bypass port and flow to the radiator as too little flow to the radiator too late in the warm up cycle could result in overheating/temp spikes. Keeping in mind that the temp gauge sensor is on the OEM tstat housing I'd think excessive temperature should be virtually instantly visible and I'd also venture that if you experience warm-up temps going more than 1 tick above vertical that the hole in the skirt of your in line needs to be larger and I'd speculate that those using an in line in really hot areas like Tempe, AZ might need a bigger hole in the tstat skirt."

IMHO the inline option is an acceptable short term interim stop gap measure. Yes I know some find it works just fine; just I'm not putting it on my vehicle if doing so can be avoided. The OEM, not Crown, replacements, are ok but very disappointing based on price (a $10 tstat in a sealed housing for a total cost of ca. $110-150 is flat nuts) and durability (roughly 50K miles sucks). Any design that replaces the stupid sealed OEM housing (Kap's, TDF's, SI's) with a housing that contains a replaceable tstat is an improvement over the OEM design. IMHO each is a good design with individual pros/cons.

One can debate the cost of the various designs, their availability, etc based on your own economic situation, pick whatever works best for you, but I think we can all agree that a sealed tstat housing is just nuts.

FYI - between my son, myself, and a friend we have used Kap's and TDF's units and both work fine. As to what's the best operating temp, GDE has expressed an opinion that OEM is too low. What some unknown combination of VM/DCJ engineers/bean counters thought back in the early 2000's when the OEM design was settled on, who knows or maybe who cares; same folks that picked the junk OEM CAC hoses.

Here ends the rant.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:16 pm 
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papaindigo wrote:
"The obvious potential problem with an in line is the balance between flow provided to the bypass port and flow to the radiator as too little flow to the radiator too late in the warm up cycle could result in overheating/temp spikes."


I'm thinking that by having the 5/8 tee for the bypass right next to the inline, or integrated with it, it would always have "up to date" coolant flowing right to the tstat, ensuring it opens before any spikes occur. I'm not sure if I explained correctly in my first post, but this tee replaces the existing bypass output on the stock tstat, and a hose from the tee would go back to the engine where the original bypass plumbed in.


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:38 pm 
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NorthwoodsMike wrote:
Now, let's say I'm way off with my sub-system balancing theory. I'm wrong, and there is too much flow with an open bypass, causing overheating. They make 3/4 inch valves with 12v actuators. Getting one, that closes when energized, could be integrated with a radiator probe near the radiator inlet. When the the probe senses heat, it will energize the actuator, closing the bypass valve.

A proper bypass thermostat always guarantees flow because the valves are mechanically connected. If it fails open, the bpass is shut and all the coolant goes through the radiator. If it fails closed, the bypass is open and cooland still circulates. Not a good situation but the coolant is still circulating so there are no hot spots. It gives the driver time to recognise the problem and take action. With the electrically actuated bypass you propose there is no mechanical coupling so there's a possibility that the bypass fails closed while the thermostat is closed. This could get bad quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:33 pm 
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dirtmover wrote:
NorthwoodsMike wrote:
Now, let's say I'm way off with my sub-system balancing theory. I'm wrong, and there is too much flow with an open bypass, causing overheating. They make 3/4 inch valves with 12v actuators. Getting one, that closes when energized, could be integrated with a radiator probe near the radiator inlet. When the the probe senses heat, it will energize the actuator, closing the bypass valve.

A proper bypass thermostat always guarantees flow because the valves are mechanically connected. If it fails open, the bpass is shut and all the coolant goes through the radiator. If it fails closed, the bypass is open and cooland still circulates. Not a good situation but the coolant is still circulating so there are no hot spots. It gives the driver time to recognise the problem and take action. With the electrically actuated bypass you propose there is no mechanical coupling so there's a possibility that the bypass fails closed while the thermostat is closed. This could get bad quickly.


That is true-but I hoped to avoid it by having electricity close the valve. If the electric system failed, it would open. If it got stuck though, I see your point.

I'm more interested to hear if the valve even needs to be part of the system, especially if the EGR system is gone. Further research today shows that having a little hot coolant mixing with the cold before it enters the engine can prevent the cold shock, though I personally have not heard of that being an issue with the VMCRD. I suppose the heater core helps with this anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:44 pm 
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NorthwoodsMike wrote:

Scenario 1-gutted stock housing. This cooling system has 3 main sub-systems fed by a 5/8 line. EGR, Heater Core, and Bypass Engine Cooling. With a gutted housing, the theory is that there will be too much hot coolant recirculating back into the engine, even with the tstat open. The thing is, there are 2 other other similarly sized systems that create a bypass in this way all the time, the heater core, and the the EGR. Eliminate one of those, and, in theory, the system should be closer to balanced again. Many no longer have a need for EGR cooling, so that seems like the best candidate. Obviously the balance isn't perfect, having different resistance, but I would bet it's pretty darn close.



This is exactly what I did.
I ran all summer long like this and didn't have any cooling problems. But I didn't tow anything or drive through any mountains.

Here is how I did it:
I gutted the factory thermostat and sealed it back up. But in the process I broke the little plastic elbow that fed the de-gas line up to the top of coolant tank. I then plugged and sealed that open port. This forced me to re-route some of the heater lines.
Because I deleted the EGR and cooler I could have just plugged the port on the side of the head that fed the EGR cooler. Instead, I kept the port open and routed it directly to the heater. What was the heater outlet on the thermostat housing now feeds into the de-gas line and to the top of the coolant tank. The bypass port is wide open all the time and I am using a Meziere thermostat housing with a 195F thermostat for a small block chevy V8 and a single small hole drilled into the side of it.

Something I have noticed over the years while fixing cars and trucks.
Engine thermostats are cheap parts. Not exactly assembled with any kind of precision or accurate testing. You can take two Stant thermostats off the same shelf at the parts store, same part numbers and same designated temperatures, test them in hot water on your stove and they will open and close at slightly different temperatures and at slightly different rates.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:53 pm 
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A housing like this, with a built in bypass, would ensure the tstat is getting the same temp coolant that is flowing through the engine. $100

Image

http://www.ipsco.org/Custom%20Services/Remote%20thermostat%20housing.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:06 pm 
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NorthwoodsMike wrote:
A housing like this, with a built in bypass, would ensure the tstat is getting the same temp coolant that is flowing through the engine. $100


http://www.ipsco.org/Custom%20Services/Remote%20thermostat%20housing.htm


Pretty cool, but I dont see how that helps.
The factory housing already has a bypass port. And that housing shown uses the same SB chevy t-stat, nothing fancy that would block the bypass once the main outlet opens.

I would use the housing in that picture a different way though.
Instead of using the port as a bypass, I would route a coolant line from the rear of the head up to that port so that some of the coolant from the back of head has a quicker way out and to the thermostat and radiator.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:18 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
NorthwoodsMike wrote:
A housing like this, with a built in bypass, would ensure the tstat is getting the same temp coolant that is flowing through the engine. $100


http://www.ipsco.org/Custom%20Services/Remote%20thermostat%20housing.htm


Pretty cool, but I dont see how that helps.
The factory housing already has a bypass port. And that housing shown uses the same SB chevy t-stat, nothing fancy that would block the bypass once the main outlet opens.

I would use the housing in that picture a different way though.
Instead of using the port as a bypass, I would route a coolant line from the rear of the head up to that port so that some of the coolant from the back of head has a quicker way out and to the thermostat and radiator.


With a gutted tstat, it wouldn't help, as it'd be redundant. It would help those who have the stock fail, where the bypass is closed.

With your Meziere, do you have issues with the tstat not opening in time, since there is no flow immediately around it? (NEVERMIND-you drilled a hole)


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:34 am 
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NorthwoodsMike wrote:
I'm more interested to hear if the valve even needs to be part of the system, especially if the EGR system is gone. Further research today shows that having a little hot coolant mixing with the cold before it enters the engine can prevent the cold shock, though I personally have not heard of that being an issue with the VMCRD. I suppose the heater core helps with this anyway.

I see what you're getting at. If the bypass is left permenantly open you will reduce the flow through the radiator when the thermostat is open. You could restore this flow by permanently shutting of another similarly sized bypass. Firstly, I don't know that the EGR is a bypass in the radiator int same sense. Secondly, when the egr cooler is bypassed the two hoses are normally connected together, not blocked which is what your proposal would require.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:30 pm 
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I thought the stage 2 kit blocked the port in the head, and eliminated the y on the heater hose junction. The coolant stays in the head.


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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:32 pm 
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dirtmover wrote:
NorthwoodsMike wrote:
I'm more interested to hear if the valve even needs to be part of the system, especially if the EGR system is gone. Further research today shows that having a little hot coolant mixing with the cold before it enters the engine can prevent the cold shock, though I personally have not heard of that being an issue with the VMCRD. I suppose the heater core helps with this anyway.

I see what you're getting at. If the bypass is left permenantly open you will reduce the flow through the radiator when the thermostat is open. You could restore this flow by permanently shutting of another similarly sized bypass. Firstly, I don't know that the EGR is a bypass in the radiator int same sense. Secondly, when the egr cooler is bypassed the two hoses are normally connected together, not blocked which is what your proposal would require.


Those that purchase the Weeks Stage 2 EGR delete kit are provided with a plug to block off the port on the drivers side of the head that would normally feed the EGR cooler.

Whether or not you consider the EGR cooler a bypass, coolant flows out of the head, into the EGR cooler, and back into the water pump inlet. This path, like the heater core loop, never pass through the radiator.
Even the small de-gas line that goes to the top of the coolant tank, its path does not go through the radiator.

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 Post subject: Re: Stant thermostat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:34 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
dirtmover wrote:
I'm with flash and geordi on this. The HDS is a work of art and belongs in a display cabinet rather than in a dirty engine bay.

I'm not aware of any engine damage that can be directly attributed to the use of an inline 'stat however I'm not too keen on that solution because of the lack of bypass and especially in conjunction with a failed OE stat.

I've got a gutted OE 'stat housing that I may use in conjunction with an inline or try to put it back together with a Kia 'stat for poops and giggles but failing that the other option is to stick with the OE 'stat at $110 a pop. At almost 10 years I'm still on the second OE 'stat. At this rate I can go another 20 years with OE 'stats before I even get close to matching the cost of the HDS.

It's easy to speculate and theorize on the benefits of the HDS thermostat but as far as I'm aware none of the claims have been backed up with any empirical data. Apart from the fact it's pretty and allows for easy replacement I don't see any real advantage.

So if your tstat housing is gutted, what prevents coolant from recirculating instead of flowing to the radiator? I thought the oe tstat block the recirculation channel as it opened.

The stant inline, and any inline, is a bandaid at best in my eyes. The fact that a 1/16" hole needs to be drilled in it to make it function shows that. I couldn't wait to get that thing out but sure as hell wasn't gunna buy an oe housing after my first one was dead from the day I bought the thing with 42k miles. I bought the 4J tstat not because I thought it would magically make my jeep get 40 mpg and be able to tow a million tons without overheating, I got it becaise the other solutions sucked.

This is a general statement not directed at anyone in particular, but if money is an issue you have the wrong car, sorry. 30 mpg or not this thing eats money. We all love these things here, but its an irrational love becaise this is not a "good" car as it came from the factory.

I agree 100% +1. If your budget permits, get an hds thermostat. It's worth every single penny. I have it and I can vouch for it.

_________________
2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.


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