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Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
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Author:  DadsDiesel [ Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
OK,

After searching for "smoke on start-up" etc. I have not found an answer. So, apologies in advance if I just can't find the answer.

Ok - here goes:

About 3 months ago, my son "swamped" the jeep in water up to the bottom of the doors during a hard rain that flooded the road. He stalled it and a friend got it started with starting fluid. lots of white smoke and the Jeep had to sit till I got to it a couple days later. It started with some trouble but lots of smoke upon start-up. Checking codes, there is a "bad #2 glow plug" code.

Now, here is how the Jeep acts every morning. Lots of white-ish smoke on start up, smells like poorly burnt fuel. Drives and accelerates fine, the engine at idle runs rough, but once the engine is warm, she runs great, like normal with lots of torque etc.

This has been going on for several months, plugging the block heater in makes no difference.

We have done timing belt and water pump a year ago, egr totally taken out with the Sasquatch kit, new intercooler hoses and fresh oil/filter.

No, I haven't replaced the glow plugs yet, but we live in coastal NC and it really doesn't get very cold here. Someone suggested it was an injector. I dunno.... BTW, even on warm days she smokes till the engine is warm.

I am deferring to the collective wisdom of this board for help. (I just priced injectors!)

Do I need to replace the glow plugs and see if that helps? I have considered replacing all of the injectors? But, at almost $500 each, I will feel like a stealership mechanic! LOL!

Any thoughts??
Author:  JD3020 [ Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
Have a compression test done on it. If starting fluid was used in an engine with glow plugs its very easy to do internal damage(cracked pistons, bent rods, etc..).

When was the last time you replaced the fuel filter on it?
Author:  flash7210 [ Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
Are you loosing coolant?
Is it possible that the engine ingested water during the flood?

What you describe sounds exactly like my engine when the head was cracked.
Author:  rankom [ Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
ok get them GP out asap . as for injectors you can do return flow test ( cup test ) easy to do that is good starting point ,
Author:  papaindigo [ Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
More information needed.
1. fresh water or salt water
2. did water get into cabin
3. you say your son "stalled it" - Jeep would not normally stall in water that shallow so ??? especially since exhaust pipe outlet is higher than bottom of the doors
4. did it sit in water long and if so did the water get higher.
5. have you checked all the fluids (oil, ATF, transfer case, differential) for water.

If I was to guess water got into the exhaust system and "fried" the catalytic converter guts.

Glow plug fault code translates to bad GP which if OEM ceramic is likely to result in a split GP tip and possible engine damage. FYI glow plugs always cycle on start up even if ambient is over 100F per FSM.

A small amount of white smoke before the engine starts to warm up is not abnormal. Mine does not do it but my son's 06 does.
Author:  taroo [ Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
I am not and expert here but not seeing a connection between flooding and GP failure not unless maybe ingesting a lot of water caused cavitation/pressure to damage a GP. Starting fluid is a different story. I am not sure how this vehicle can stall in water unless you ingested it in the air intake.

Soo...seems like white smoke is oil or water but not diesel. That sounds like a possible cracked head but have no idea and not trying to alarm you.

I just changed by GPs today. Not a bad job at all. Just drop your weeks elbow and I dropped my fuel head as I was moving to Gen 2 fuel head. Anyway, if you pull the GPs and replace with the 7v Etechnos from IDParts, then you will at least rule out a broken GP and damage thereof.
Author:  DadsDiesel [ Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
reply for more info:

More information needed.
1. fresh water or salt water - Brackish

2. did water get into cabin - no water in cabin, but Jeep stalled because he moved in reverse to get out of the way of an oncoming UPS truck - Also, depth of the water was right at the door sill. When I went to get him, he was able to move the jeep out of the water to higher ground, but I was not able to cross the area because the water was higher.

3. you say your son "stalled it" - Jeep would not normally stall in water that shallow so ??? especially since exhaust pipe outlet is higher than bottom of the doors - I am thinking backing up the water went up the tailpipe

4. did it sit in water long and if so did the water get higher. - It only sat a few minutes. He went to his friend's house and got the starting fluid

5. have you checked all the fluids (oil, ATF, transfer case, differential) for water. - Engine oil yes, transfer case and diff no. ATF no but no "water rings" on the dipstick.

If I was to guess water got into the exhaust system and "fried" the catalytic converter guts. - Thats a good thing... :roll:

Glow plug fault code translates to bad GP which if OEM ceramic is likely to result in a split GP tip and possible engine damage. FYI glow plugs always cycle on start up even if ambient is over 100F per FSM. - I figured that.

A small amount of white smoke before the engine starts to warm up is not abnormal. Mine does not do it but my son's 06 does.

Oh no, lots of smoke until engine warm. Like I said, no power loss, she does sound "louder" more like a tractor, but that has been for a while.

No coolant loss, no oil in coolant, oil level consistent - It doesn't go up or down... other than blowing off almost a quart after an oil change.

127K on the clock confirmed by my son.

I thought water had gotten in the intake that would have stalled the Jeep, but.... white smoke continues after 3 months.

Yes, yes, I know.... but son works a lot and it's hard for me to get my hands on the Jeep.

Symptoms of a cracked head would be, loss of coolant, blue smoke, engine oil loss.... Why would symptom go away after warm up? Perhaps, the "crack" isn't complete, so when the engine warms the crack closes? 'eh... I dunno but again, I rely on the group...

Fuel filter prob due to be changed. it does have the gen 2 fuel head, replaced at last filter change.
Author:  railguy [ Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
My bet would be a cracked head. I had this issue with another diesel engine (not a CRD) and the symptoms were exactly as you explained--lots of white or blue smoke on startup, which would stop when the engine got warm. I had bought this vehicle used (too much used, obviously) and the engine was so worn that, once my mechanic got into the engine and saw all the problems, it wound up being cheaper just to buy a new engine rather than rebuild the old one. This was back when brand new engines in a crate actually were reasonably priced, not like they are today. If in fact it is a cracked head and the engine has been ingesting and burning coolant for "several months" as the post implies, then there is a good chance that the engine is damaged and will either have to be rebuilt or replaced. Diesel engines can take quite a bit of abuse from different things, but ingesting coolant is not one of them.
Author:  taroo [ Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
So...only oil loss between changes (normal amount) and NO coolant loss? You sure there is no coolant loss?
Author:  Mountainman [ Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
If it really isn't consuming any fluid, then I would lean towards a damaged injector. Try unplugging them one at a time when it's still cold and see if that changes the tractor sound, or smoke output. Rankom also mentioned the leak down test, which I usually just pull the return lines and have someone crank the engine, and look for any obvious difference in flow, it just weeps fuel when cranking, so not a messy ordeal. Pulling the ASD relay will keep it from starting during this.

I want to think he broke a rocker or two, but I don't recall that causing smoke, just noise. Maybe Geordi or someone can touch on this?

Is it louder even when up to temp?
Author:  KC-CRD [ Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
Smells like glow plugs to me. Diesels need to heat up the head to get good combustion. I've never seen my Liberty act this way, but my 7.3 IDI acts just like this when it's cold. Rough idle because it's not firing efficiently on 1 or more cylinders. The colder the ambient temperature, the worse it can be. I also haven't dug into Jeeps GP circuitry, but my Ford cycles the glowplugs even when it's warm out. White smoke can be unburnt fuel, and if it smells that way.... You know you have a problem with at least one glow plug. It looks like glow plugs are $25 each.

Ignoring the rest of your post, this screams glowplugs:

Quote:
Now, here is how the Jeep acts every morning. Lots of white-ish smoke on start up, smells like poorly burnt fuel. Drives and accelerates fine, the engine at idle runs rough, but once the engine is warm, she runs great, like normal with lots of torque etc.
Author:  DadsDiesel [ Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
Bump!

Anyone else help!!!!
Author:  flash7210 [ Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
Have you changed anything?
Installed new glow plugs?
New fuel filter?

Is it still smoking at startup?
Author:  DadsDiesel [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
Sad day -or rather, weekend...

Son came home and said, "Low coolant light" on. :dizzy:

Now, she uses about a quart of coolant every couple days...... From what I have read, it's a cracked head. The weather was warm and she smokes less on start-up but alas, barring any coolant leak, (nothing on the ground) I think it is the head.

And, the new glow plugs had just arrived too! I was going to install them this weekend till son came home and told me about the coolant.

I have never pulled the head off of any engine. I did do the timing belt and water pump 2 christmases ago. I can do brakes and other maintenance crap like that - but, pulling the head scares me a little.

And, the Jeep is a daily driver, so now I will have to rent/borrow/buy something while she is down. There are 2 diesel engine shops near me (we live close to the coast) I may <choke> go by and ask them.

One write up here on the forum, says it takes about 25-35 hours for a "shade tree" mechanic to do the rocker arms, but he didn't pull the head.

So, here is what I am planning on replacing:

Rocker arms etc
Head bolts
Glow plugs
Head (of course)
New gaskets (goes without saying)

EGR has already been deleted when timing belt done.

Can anyone think of anything else?
Author:  papaindigo [ Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
pm or email geordi
Author:  DadsDiesel [ Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Another head gasket failure!?!
papaindigo wrote:
pm or email geordi


Thanks for the heads-up!

I contacted him and he is a great guy that doesn't mind giving advice even when I may mean that he won't get a job...

After contacting him, it looks like it (may) just be a head gasket. That is still a mouthful given the time that I have to do the job. But, we (my son and I) are going to attempt it anyway.

Libby has been off the road for about a week, and here are the symptoms when we pulled her into the garage.

Stone cold engine built up a lot of pressure in the coolant reservoir in just enough time to mover her into the garage.

The reservoir has "a lot" of oil in it. So, no doubt the crank case has coolant in it.

Started the tear down today, using the youtube guide for the timing belt/water pump replacement and are now at the point of pulling injectors, valve cover and intake....

I will take the head to a machine shop to be tested and trued up if it isn't cracked.

Anyone interested in pictures?
Author:  geordi [ Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
Pictures can be beneficial and educational. I would strongly suspect that you are going to find at least one glow plug missing a bit of itself.

If you haven't yet bought the head gasket, get the 2 hole version, and don't forget the ARP studs. This is the time and the reason we do the studs. Don't kick yourself too badly, you would have needed to do this at some point anyway. Throw away those factory bolts, they are garbage.
Author:  DadsDiesel [ Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
geordi wrote:
Pictures can be beneficial and educational. I would strongly suspect that you are going to find at least one glow plug missing a bit of itself.

If you haven't yet bought the head gasket, get the 2 hole version, and don't forget the ARP studs. This is the time and the reason we do the studs. Don't kick yourself too badly, you would have needed to do this at some point anyway. Throw away those factory bolts, they are garbage.


I have read the head bolt thread(s) and have no intent of using OEM head bolts. I am also planning on replacing lower radiator hose... already there, why not! Also, full EGR delete (stage 2) already did stage 1.

I need to look at turbo for play. I did feel "some" and there is a ton of oil in the turbo. I will try and post pic's later.

My son will be attending UNC Charlotte for Mechanical Engineering/Motor Sports in the fall and according to him, he has no intention of doing away with the Liberty. So, is there a laundry list of things that we should go ahead and do since we already will have the head off? (other than what I have listed above) Here is what I have in my cart so far from ID parts:


Liberty CRD Filter Pack Liberty CRD Filter Pack

Rocker Arm & Lifter Set (Liberty CRD) Rocker Arm & Lifter Set (Liberty CRD)

$369.95

Dual Cam Lock Tool Dual Cam Lock Tool

$99.95
Cylinder Head Install Kit (Liberty CRD) Cylinder Head Install Kit (Liberty CRD)
- Head Gasket 2 Hole

$239.95
Lower Radiator Hose (Liberty CRD) Lower Radiator Hose (Liberty CRD)

$57.95
Upper Radiator Hose (Liberty CRD) Upper Radiator Hose (Liberty CRD)

$12.95
Hayden Heavy Duty Fan Clutch Hayden Heavy Duty Fan Clutch

$54.95
Timing Belt [Gates] (Liberty CRD) Timing Belt [Gates] (Liberty CRD)

$84.95
Timing Belt Gasket Kit (Liberty CRD) Timing Belt Gasket Kit (Liberty CRD)

$44.95
ARP Head Stud Kit (Liberty CRD) ARP Head Stud Kit (Liberty CRD)

looking on thermostat threads now on which one to buy.

What about exhaust temp gage?
Boost gage?
Will have to do some kind of reprogramming at least to clear CEL post egr lobotomy.

Don't want to do torque converter this trip, need to get her back up and running in a week or so.
Author:  diesel_guy86 [ Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
I would HIGHLY suggest a lift pump. I went the intank route as it was a direct swap and keeps everything factory looking. I also dont like a pump exposed to outside elements, i thought it was pretty easy to do. I think the pump was $200 and the harness was like $50.

This will eliminate any air in fuel problems and makes changing fuel filters a breeze (pump re primes the fuel filter for you)
Author:  geordi [ Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoke on start-up once warm smoke gone
You don't need the timing belt gasket kit, and look in the tools section for "sprocket buster" and get the Metalnerd one that is like $40, you want to fight your own torque, rather than some janky tool that may or may not grab properly.

The Turbo diesel freak thermostat (the $500 one) is a very over-engineered upgrade, but if you are keeping the CRD, then it is worth getting that.
Oil in the front of the turbo means *nothing* and comes from the CCV hose. You may find yourself needing the airbox-to-turbo hose because the oil rots that out in about 60k miles. When you do an oil change, put in ONLY 6.4 quarts if you use the stock filter size, or exactly 7 quarts if you use the Mobil 1 M1-301 filter or an equivalent. Anything more is overfilling, and you should mark the "new" full mark on the dipstick after running the engine for a few seconds and then let it settle for about 10 minutes, so you have an accurate dipstick.

Gauges can be gotten from GlowShift Gauges and you may like the Diesel 3-in-1 model they have, drilling and tapping for boost in the elbow or intake is certainly easier now with the intake removed from the engine. Ditto for exhaust probe in the mouth of the turbo or the exit of the manifold since you are pulling the entire head. My preference (if you have a welder) is to drill the turbo on the spine just past the manifold mouth, and weld on a 10mm nut that has "close" threads to the 1/8" NPT probe fitting. You can obviously drill and tap the exhaust manifold or the down pipe too. If you do pre-turbo, then remember that any temperatures will be about 300 degrees HOTTER than post-turbo for anything that you might read online. The turbo can run safely at 1200 degrees (pre turbo) all day long.
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