Ball Bearing CRD turbo

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:29 pm

Was it the 05/06 model years? I know the overseas one had a regular wastegated turbo.

tcoilburner · **Posted:** Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:31 pm

Ok, I get that.
But how much cooler will it get with water cooling?
And, wont you still need coolant circulating through it for a minute or two before shutting off the motor?

IOW, which is better.
Cooling the turbo with 200 deg engine oil or 200 deg engine coolant?

Edit:
I think I found the answer. Specific to ball bearing turbos.
Because ball bearing turbos require less oil for lubrication, the oil alone is not enough for cooling. Water cooling is required. Therefore, water cooling does not eliminate the need for turbo cool down time.[/quote]

The idea behind water cooling, is a correctly set up system will naturally draw water through it as the water heats up and rises. You can shut off the engine and it will continue to cool without get so hot to coke the oil. The water moves on as it pulls heat out, the oil stay way below its burn off temp.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 28, 2016 10:43 pm

tcoilburner wrote:

Ok, I get that.
But how much cooler will it get with water cooling?
And, wont you still need coolant circulating through it for a minute or two before shutting off the motor?

IOW, which is better.
Cooling the turbo with 200 deg engine oil or 200 deg engine coolant?

Edit:
I think I found the answer. Specific to ball bearing turbos.
Because ball bearing turbos require less oil for lubrication, the oil alone is not enough for cooling. Water cooling is required. Therefore, water cooling does not eliminate the need for turbo cool down time.

The idea behind water cooling, is a correctly set up system will naturally draw water through it as the water heats up and rises. You can shut off the engine and it will continue to cool without get so hot to coke the oil. The water moves on as it pulls heat out, the oil stay way below its burn off temp.[/quote]

Yep, the watercooling isnt to cool it while it runs, its after its shut off and the heat from the hot manifolds start to soak into the center cartridge. But is that really a fix, or just a bandaid? If the problem is heat soaking back then why not utilize better materials to prevent heat soak in the first place?

Auberon · **Posted:** Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:37 pm

I hope this information helps.
It's a great opportunity to thorw it out there to intelligent folk.
If it starts to rob the thread I'll start a new one but I think it's linked loosely.

Some info on export diesels:
The early (I think diesel 2002-2004) models did indeed have waste gated turbos.
After that they did change to the VVT configuration to end of run in 2007.
My understanding (but it's just here-say from the guy selling the GDE tunes here) is that our (export) (2006 model) turbos are slightly more edgy than the US jobs but there's not much difference. I can't quite figure out why he said that as it appears to me to be the same old Garrret job you blokes got with perhaps a slightly different impellor resulting in an ever-so-slightly spool-up. Can't say for sure.

REF CAC:
I've also been studying 3d printing in detail - recently purchased a number of books on the process....and copying the end tanks of the CAC wouldn't be too hard then modding with the provisos below - I'd do it but I don't have the funds just now to get right build the scanner or printer. That could well change. I'd be very interested in modelling these tanks if I ever get my 3 d printer going.

Have looked at the technicalities of this rather hard and done much reading of the fact - checked book study type - not internet here-say and innuendo.
The difficulty would be in printing in a sufficiently durable material for heat combined with the (I am guessing) possibly 25 psi this may achieve in boost than - been looking at the mickey-mouse printers too but the aspect of the job would eed it positioned vertically (along the long axis) given the shapes involved otherwise gravity would score a win every time. Need to make my own, as many are only just capable of printing in water soluble polymer filaments. I'd also be looking into PET ends so you can observe at least at one end but sight glasses and draining/cleaning access is a must so you can clean in situ with gentle detergent flushing as one would with an HD truck CAC unit.
I am really serious about this as an addition to my workshop.

A sufficiently long Delta configuration printer would do it but it'd need to be an encased and internal environment heated job to handle the appropriate polymers. The extruder would probably (at an initial look) need to be capable of slightly higher temps too.

CAC observations:
On the CAC I have an IN and Out Temp Gauge fitted and the stock unit is not all that great with efficient. My CAC efficiency hasn't degraded much as I have had this gauge fitted since near new but Intake temp to outlet temp is at best (and always has been) 8 degrees C. and that was on a somewhat cooler day - 12 deg C is the max I've ever noted but it usually sits on 3 degree gain across the body of the CAC operating at 100 deg C or near no matter what the load. I have each thermistor installed with minimal insulation (to speed response time) and lodged in the fins at the outlet and inlets.

Point is verified by what you wrote diesel_guy86 - Not much of a gain in my opinion so thicker body with greater heat exchange area through generating depth of field would be desireable.
slic3r should layer it up pretty easily and allow modifying.

Maybe water misting:
I'd also thought of how to add water mist cooling to the CAC as an alternative using a couple of thermistors and Arduino to control it. The programming sketch would be fairly easy to patch together and then control an H-bridge circuit or solid state relay to switch constantly pressurised mister on and off via a solenoid. This one might be easier to implement in the interim. Thoughts? I have almost enough kit to have a go at the programme and circuit.

Happy to discuss this more.

On the Puck:
I also had the idea of a cyclone separator as an integral part of the puck (with the stock pressure relief spring included in the printing and modelled after the Forefront Industries job (which is a bit smaller dimensionally than the Provent and would sit nicely atop the puck as a replacement hood for it => IN the design in my mind the outlet would just go to the usual place at the turbo inlet hose. Ducting of the 3/4 id tube would form part of the mounting system, with strategic webbing back to the main body.Again it is possible to form these entities out of an appropriate polymer but the caveat is that most hobby printers are not capable of handing anything material that is sufficiently robust or rugged. The software (slic3er) would easily layer it up after a decent scan as well as allow editing to greater depth of end tanks. Issue is the volume of within the body of the printer which needs to be held at an elevated level through the whole printing process as the shear volume of it could be a minor issue. I am aware we could get them printed by commercial printers but I think with the tinkering (apologies for the play on names in that cottage type industry) would be intensive at the start.

Blokes if I've sown any seeds here please start a new thread so we don't smother this most excellent idea of diesel_guy86 re the turbo.

Cheers

Auberon · **Posted:** Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:43 pm

Is it possible to port it on the exhaust intake side for EGT sensor in say 1/4 NPT?

95Z28A4 · **Joined:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:53 am **Posts:** 297

tcoilburner wrote:

The idea behind water cooling, is a correctly set up system will naturally draw water through it as the water heats up and rises. You can shut off the engine and it will continue to cool without get so hot to coke the oil. The water moves on as it pulls heat out, the oil stay way below its burn off temp.

This process is called thermosyphon. Thermosyphon works provided an unrestricted flow path exists.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:40 pm

Auberon wrote:

I hope this information helps.
It's a great opportunity to thorw it out there to intelligent folk.
If it starts to rob the thread I'll start a new one but I think it's linked loosely.

Some info on export diesels:
The early (I think diesel 2002-2004) models did indeed have waste gated turbos.
After that they did change to the VVT configuration to end of run in 2007.
My understanding (but it's just here-say from the guy selling the GDE tunes here) is that our (export) (2006 model) turbos are slightly more edgy than the US jobs but there's not much difference. I can't quite figure out why he said that as it appears to me to be the same old Garrret job you blokes got with perhaps a slightly different impellor resulting in an ever-so-slightly spool-up. Can't say for sure.

REF CAC:
I've also been studying 3d printing in detail - recently purchased a number of books on the process....and copying the end tanks of the CAC wouldn't be too hard then modding with the provisos below - I'd do it but I don't have the funds just now to get right build the scanner or printer. That could well change. I'd be very interested in modelling these tanks if I ever get my 3 d printer going.

Have looked at the technicalities of this rather hard and done much reading of the fact - checked book study type - not internet here-say and innuendo.
The difficulty would be in printing in a sufficiently durable material for heat combined with the (I am guessing) possibly 25 psi this may achieve in boost than - been looking at the mickey-mouse printers too but the aspect of the job would eed it positioned vertically (along the long axis) given the shapes involved otherwise gravity would score a win every time. Need to make my own, as many are only just capable of printing in water soluble polymer filaments. I'd also be looking into PET ends so you can observe at least at one end but sight glasses and draining/cleaning access is a must so you can clean in situ with gentle detergent flushing as one would with an HD truck CAC unit.
I am really serious about this as an addition to my workshop.

A sufficiently long Delta configuration printer would do it but it'd need to be an encased and internal environment heated job to handle the appropriate polymers. The extruder would probably (at an initial look) need to be capable of slightly higher temps too.

CAC observations:
On the CAC I have an IN and Out Temp Gauge fitted and the stock unit is not all that great with efficient. My CAC efficiency hasn't degraded much as I have had this gauge fitted since near new but Intake temp to outlet temp is at best (and always has been) 8 degrees C. and that was on a somewhat cooler day - 12 deg C is the max I've ever noted but it usually sits on 3 degree gain across the body of the CAC operating at 100 deg C or near no matter what the load. I have each thermistor installed with minimal insulation (to speed response time) and lodged in the fins at the outlet and inlets.

Point is verified by what you wrote diesel_guy86 - Not much of a gain in my opinion so thicker body with greater heat exchange area through generating depth of field would be desireable.
slic3r should layer it up pretty easily and allow modifying.

Maybe water misting:
I'd also thought of how to add water mist cooling to the CAC as an alternative using a couple of thermistors and Arduino to control it. The programming sketch would be fairly easy to patch together and then control an H-bridge circuit or solid state relay to switch constantly pressurised mister on and off via a solenoid. This one might be easier to implement in the interim. Thoughts? I have almost enough kit to have a go at the programme and circuit.

Happy to discuss this more.

On the Puck:
I also had the idea of a cyclone separator as an integral part of the puck (with the stock pressure relief spring included in the printing and modelled after the Forefront Industries job (which is a bit smaller dimensionally than the Provent and would sit nicely atop the puck as a replacement hood for it => IN the design in my mind the outlet would just go to the usual place at the turbo inlet hose. Ducting of the 3/4 id tube would form part of the mounting system, with strategic webbing back to the main body.Again it is possible to form these entities out of an appropriate polymer but the caveat is that most hobby printers are not capable of handing anything material that is sufficiently robust or rugged. The software (slic3er) would easily layer it up after a decent scan as well as allow editing to greater depth of end tanks. Issue is the volume of within the body of the printer which needs to be held at an elevated level through the whole printing process as the shear volume of it could be a minor issue. I am aware we could get them printed by commercial printers but I think with the tinkering (apologies for the play on names in that cottage type industry) would be intensive at the start.

Blokes if I've sown any seeds here please start a new thread so we don't smother this most excellent idea of diesel_guy86 re the turbo.

Cheers

What I was told by the guys who make the WickedWheel, was that the US turbos had poor castings and QC so they had a hard time making wheels for it that did not rub. They stopped producing it for the OEM US turbo and now only make a wheel for the replacement/export turbos.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:42 pm

I would be all over this if I hadn't already spent $1200 on a new turbo a couple of years back :banghead:

It didn't have enough life left to even chance it unfortunately. It was carving it's way through...

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:16 am

Was doing some researching early this morning and found a gtb2056v turbine wheel that handles 240hp. Using this wheel would require the turbine housing to be machined but that is simple to do and is done all the time around here.

So whats everyones thoughts? Stick with the stock size, or use the "bigger" wheel? Or have it as an option/upgrade?

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:27 am

Will the "variable vanes" be effected by this larger turbine?

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:37 am

No, that part of the turbine is the same.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:44 am

It seems like a good idea but probably should be tested before being offered as an option.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:56 pm

diesel_guy86 wrote:

Was doing some researching early this morning and found a gtb2056v turbine wheel that handles 240hp. Using this wheel would require the turbine housing to be machined but that is simple to do and is done all the time around here.

So whats everyones thoughts? Stick with the stock size, or use the "bigger" wheel? Or have it as an option/upgrade?

The folks over at tdiclub like the GTB2056 alot it seems and say it spools better than the gt2056 even on the smaller VW engines. Some of it has to do with the vnt itself I think.

I would prefer a better hot side. I think it's going to improve the turbo a bit.

The only thing is, if you are getting this far into it then why not just start with the gtb is the first place and weld a new flange onto it so that it can bolt straight up like gde did with their 1756 kit.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:19 pm

mass-hole wrote:

diesel_guy86 wrote:

Was doing some researching early this morning and found a gtb2056v turbine wheel that handles 240hp. Using this wheel would require the turbine housing to be machined but that is simple to do and is done all the time around here.

So whats everyones thoughts? Stick with the stock size, or use the "bigger" wheel? Or have it as an option/upgrade?

The folks over at tdiclub like the GTB2056 alot it seems and say it spools better than the gt2056 even on the smaller VW engines. Some of it has to do with the vnt itself I think.

I would prefer a better hot side. I think it's going to improve the turbo a bit.

The only thing is, if you are getting this far into it then why not just start with the gtb is the first place and weld a new flange onto it so that it can bolt straight up like gde did with their 1756 kit.

Cause its not as simple as that, then you have to fab up a new down pipe, new oil lines, possibly something different with the intake hose, and also custom turbo-intercooler pipe. This is why gde's kit is $2500, i think the intercooler pipe stays stock though.

Here i can buy a new wheel, machine the housing 3mm bigger and everything stays the same. The price of the wheel is the same as ours, just maybe an extra $60 machining fee. And it *SHOULD* spool as good as the vnt17 with 240hp capability.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:57 pm

diesel_guy86 wrote:

mass-hole wrote:

diesel_guy86 wrote:

Was doing some researching early this morning and found a gtb2056v turbine wheel that handles 240hp. Using this wheel would require the turbine housing to be machined but that is simple to do and is done all the time around here.

So whats everyones thoughts? Stick with the stock size, or use the "bigger" wheel? Or have it as an option/upgrade?

The folks over at tdiclub like the GTB2056 alot it seems and say it spools better than the gt2056 even on the smaller VW engines. Some of it has to do with the vnt itself I think.

I would prefer a better hot side. I think it's going to improve the turbo a bit.

The only thing is, if you are getting this far into it then why not just start with the gtb is the first place and weld a new flange onto it so that it can bolt straight up like gde did with their 1756 kit.

Cause its not as simple as that, then you have to fab up a new down pipe, new oil lines, possibly something different with the intake hose, and also custom turbo-intercooler pipe. This is why gde's kit is $2500, i think the intercooler pipe stays stock though.

Here i can buy a new wheel, machine the housing 3mm bigger and everything stays the same. The price of the wheel is the same as ours, just maybe an extra $60 machining fee. And it *SHOULD* spool as good as the vnt17 with 240hp capability.

Sorry, what I meant was a GTB hot side on your custom ball bearing center section. I suppose it might be quite a bit more expensive since those would need to be purchased for every turbo.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:52 pm

Ah, i think i know what your saying. the wheel that this turbo comes from is from a vk (ours is just v) the vk has the vane system in the center section where ours (just the plain v) has the vanes in the exhaust housing. These are completely different from each other and cannot be interchanged or adapted to one another. Here is a vk turbo hot end:

And here is where the vanes are in our turbo:

Seems some vw guys prefer our turbos because there arent any obstructions by the vanes. In the first photo you can see colums coming down outside the vanes that some would argue could block airflow into the vanes. But the vanes of that turbo are curved and more aerodynamic compared to our straight and pointy ones.

Anyways there no way to use one end of one turbo and bolt it to our turbo. However the wheels are the same so they can be switched with some light and easy machine work.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:55 pm

diesel_guy86 wrote:

Ah, i think i know what your saying. the wheel that this turbo comes from is from a vk (ours is just v) the vk has the vane system in the center section where ours (just the plain v) has the vanes in the exhaust housing. These are completely different from each other and cannot be interchanged or adapted to one another. Here is a vk turbo hot end:

And here is where the vanes are in our turbo:

Seems some vw guys prefer our turbos because there arent any obstructions by the vanes. In the first photo you can see colums coming down outside the vanes that some would argue could block airflow into the vanes. But the vanes of that turbo are curved and more aerodynamic compared to our straight and pointy ones.

Anyways there no way to use one end of one turbo and bolt it to our turbo. However the wheels are the same so they can be switched with some light and easy machine work.

gottcha. Interesting. Either way I think this turbo will be very awesome. I am looking forward to getting rid of some lag I have here at 6500 ft. My turbo idles at ~880 mbar absolute here whereas I was getting 1100+ in massachusetts. I get a huge puff of black smoke and a pause when I really get on the gas.

MM53 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:22 pm

I like what you're doing and would be interested in purchasing one if it was basically a direct bolt on replacement with greater durability and lifespan. Would not be interested if it had significantly hired boost pressures with the head gasket failures were seeing and the poor head design that we have but definitely interested in a water cooled ball bearing design .

mass-hole · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:11 pm

MM53 wrote:

I like what you're doing and would be interested in purchasing one if it was basically a direct bolt on replacement with greater durability and lifespan. Would not be interested if it had significantly hired boost pressures with the head gasket failures were seeing and the poor head design that we have but definitely interested in a water cooled ball bearing design .

Its only going to supply the boost that the ECU requests with maybe some slight overboosting due to the lower resistance bearings. Everything I have read suggests Ball bearings only really make a difference at lower RPM's and the effect tends to go away as the turbo spins faster and faster.

If you wanted more boost you would need to edit your tune per the DIY Tune thread in the Tech section.

diesel_guy86 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:08 pm

Made some nice discoveries today. I bought the 3rd generation version of our turbo that is rated for 240hp, my first assignment was what made the turbo capable of 240hp.

the crd wheel is on top, in my hand and is 12 blades, the 240hp wheel has only 9 to handle the extra airflow.

Next i ripped the vanes out of both. You can see how the newer turbo (right) has nice curved thin vanes, while ours are thick and straight.
Out of curiosity i wanted to see the difference between the 2 vane mechanisms, it would be sweet if the vanes and turbine wheel would swap over to our housing.
Garrett must of been lazy because the 2 different mechanisms are almost identical. Only difference is the newer version is slightly smaller in diameter, and is missing the 3 bolt holes that our has, both easily done.
Our stock vanes in our housing:

The new version in our housing:

This means we can have the efficiency of the newer vk turbos, with 240hp capability, the response of a smaller turbo, and be able to keep everything in our factory housing. No adapting of any kind.

Im pretty excited how this is turning out.

Ball Bearing CRD turbo

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