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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:13 am 
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This sounds very interesting. I have the GDE FT Ecotune, and I know that if I fitted the GDE turbo, it would come with a modified tune. Will your turbo require anything done to the tune, or will it run with what we have (whether, stock, GDE or whatever)?

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:44 am 
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It will handle whatever tune, gde, yeti, any of them up to 240hp.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:02 pm 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
It will handle whatever tune, gde, yeti, any of them up to 240hp.


So is that the same turbo that is on the Ram/GC EcoDiesel. I thought that was also a GTB2056VK.

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Last edited by mass-hole on Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:07 pm 
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Lancer wrote:
This sounds very interesting. I have the GDE FT Ecotune, and I know that if I fitted the GDE turbo, it would come with a modified tune. Will your turbo require anything done to the tune, or will it run with what we have (whether, stock, GDE or whatever)?


The turbo should work with any tune but it would require a custom tune to hit its full potential. The boost is controlled by the ECU so it will just dial the VNT mechanism back to hit whatever boost is requested. I would guess there may be some power from efficiency gains from a freer flowing turbine and better bearings even at the same levels of boost.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:09 pm 
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I believe it is the same turbo but not 100% sure. The turbo i have came off a 2010 Audi q7 with a 3.0L TDI. Im gonna order a new center section and bearing kit (mine is at the machine shop) tomorrow to start assembling so i can test how well the new vanes and turbine work in our housings.

Ive also been thinking of contacting a couple master truck tuners to see how much work is involved in creating a tow tune that can use the new vanes for exhaust braking. It would be neat to use the o/d button on the gear shifter to turn this tune on/off. I love this feature on my truck, but I dont know if the same idea can be carried over to our application.

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05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:12 pm 
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From what I have heard from Keith at GDE, there are no provisions in the jeep ECU to add that sort of functionality to the tune. However I would LOVE to see someone else dig around and see what they can come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:38 pm 
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On my 06 duramax, my engine/trans combo was used in the larger kodiak trucks. In those trucks there was an exhaust brake button that would engage when you let off the throttle. Someone figured out that it was the same trans computer that was used in the 05-07.5 year trucks and that by simply adding a power wire in one of the pin holes activated the "hidden" exhaust brake function.

Everyone knows our transmissions were used in the ram trucks, and they had a tow/haul mode. I dont know if its possible, but exhaust brakes are amazing and really save on the brakes

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:37 am 
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An exhaust brake works by introducing some sort of restriction into the exhaust. Switching to a less restrictive turbo would have the opposite effect.
There are kits that will allow you to add an exhaust brake.
http://www.thoroughbreddiesel.com/bd-diesel/exhaust-brake-kit.htm

All the transmission functions are controlled by the TCM.
The only other non-CRD TCM available (that I know of) is the Ram Hemi TCM. And that truck did not have any exhaust brake.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:12 am 
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In our Liberty we could have a similar exhaust brake function simply by closing the vanes in the turbo. This would create a restriction in the exhaust just like an aftermarket exhaust brake does. This is how all modern pickup truck diesel engines do it. Being that the turbo is controlled pneumatically, its possible you could create a mechanical system that would close the turbo vanes on call. The other side to this would be to force the transmission to keep the TC locked so really take advantage of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:33 am 
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funnyman06 wrote:
In our Liberty we could have a similar exhaust brake function simply by closing the vanes in the turbo. This would create a restriction in the exhaust just like an aftermarket exhaust brake does. This is how all modern pickup truck diesel engines do it. Being that the turbo is controlled pneumatically, its possible you could create a mechanical system that would close the turbo vanes on call. The other side to this would be to force the transmission to keep the TC locked so really take advantage of this.



Thats how it is in my truck and its awesome. I need to find the fsm for the hemintrucks that had this trans, follow the tow/haul button and id be willing to bet all it does is supply power to a pin on the harness to activate tow/haul mode in the tcm. If it does indeed do this, then all we would have to do is re-route our o/d off button wire to the new pin spot and voila. This of course is ALL speculation, i need some diagrams in front of me to see.

The hard part (to me) would be programming the ecm to "see" its in tow/haul mode and then know to close the turbo vanes at 0% throttle and with tc locked up. This might not be hard for the guy that knows how to program, but to me that part is over my head.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:48 pm 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
I believe it is the same turbo but not 100% sure. The turbo i have came off a 2010 Audi q7 with a 3.0L TDI. Im gonna order a new center section and bearing kit (mine is at the machine shop) tomorrow to start assembling so i can test how well the new vanes and turbine work in our housings.

Ive also been thinking of contacting a couple master truck tuners to see how much work is involved in creating a tow tune that can use the new vanes for exhaust braking. It would be neat to use the o/d button on the gear shifter to turn this tune on/off. I love this feature on my truck, but I dont know if the same idea can be carried over to our application.


funnyman06 wrote:
In our Liberty we could have a similar exhaust brake function simply by closing the vanes in the turbo. This would create a restriction in the exhaust just like an aftermarket exhaust brake does. This is how all modern pickup truck diesel engines do it. Being that the turbo is controlled pneumatically, its possible you could create a mechanical system that would close the turbo vanes on call. The other side to this would be to force the transmission to keep the TC locked so really take advantage of this.


I was actually planning on trying to tune an exhaust brake myself and I dont think it would be that hard to set the turbo vanes to close in the tune. There are 3 N75 maps which are there to kinda calibrate the PWM that is sent to the vacuum system so that the turbo does not over or under boost. By changing these three maps at 0% throttle and only when the engine is above a certain RPM(IE, it you downshift using the OD Off button), then you should be able to get the VNT to close only in situations where you are trying to engine brake. My only concern is that at high RPM you could spin the turbo too fast with an aggresive VNT.

The Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon Dmax trucks do this via a switch on the dash, but this is how they work as there is not standalone engine brake.

If I get a chance I will try this this weekend. I've got some nice hills around here that I can do some before and after testing on. I think that datalogging the boost should be a good indicator if it works.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Just asking out of curiosity, is there anything in the ecm that would hint that it talks to the tcm? I thought i remember reading somewhere that in the f37 recall the motor was de-fueled when the transmission shifted. So i would assume (if thats true) that engine would have to know what gear the trans is in.

Does anyone have a link to the fsm for the dodge ram trucks?

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05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:58 pm 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
Just asking out of curiosity, is there anything in the ecm that would hint that it talks to the tcm? I thought i remember reading somewhere that in the f37 recall the motor was de-fueled when the transmission shifted. So i would assume (if thats true) that engine would have to know what gear the trans is in.

Does anyone have a link to the fsm for the dodge ram trucks?


There are torque limiting tables for each gear as well as when in TC lockup, so somehow the ECU is getting info about what the transmission is doing. The only problem is that the turbo is only controlled based on fuel injection quantities, the ECU says I want X torque at Y rpm and then checks to boost map for the amount of boost it should make. I dont know how you could ever get the VNT to vary based on input from the transmission with the way the tune is currently written. Maybe there is some stuff we just dont know about but with the maps we have found you kinda have to use the work around I was talking about.

I think it would work well. If you set the VNT to close above 2400 RPM and 0 throttle then it would engage when in 3rd at anything over 56mph and in 2nd at anything over 33mph on stock sized tires. You would need to go 85mph for it to engage in 5th.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:23 pm 
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Couldnt you install a vacuum solenoid inline with the vacuum line to the turbo?
This should allow you to manually switch on/off high/low vacuum and therefore test the functionality of using the turbo as an exhaust brake when decelerating.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:11 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
diesel_guy86 wrote:
Just asking out of curiosity, is there anything in the ecm that would hint that it talks to the tcm? I thought i remember reading somewhere that in the f37 recall the motor was de-fueled when the transmission shifted. So i would assume (if thats true) that engine would have to know what gear the trans is in.

Does anyone have a link to the fsm for the dodge ram trucks?


There are torque limiting tables for each gear as well as when in TC lockup, so somehow the ECU is getting info about what the transmission is doing. The only problem is that the turbo is only controlled based on fuel injection quantities, the ECU says I want X torque at Y rpm and then checks to boost map for the amount of boost it should make. I dont know how you could ever get the VNT to vary based on input from the transmission with the way the tune is currently written. Maybe there is some stuff we just dont know about but with the maps we have found you kinda have to use the work around I was talking about.

I think it would work well. If you set the VNT to close above 2400 RPM and 0 throttle then it would engage when in 3rd at anything over 56mph and in 2nd at anything over 33mph on stock sized tires. You would need to go 85mph for it to engage in 5th.


Ok, i was just wondering if the ecm would be able to pick up if the trans was in tow/haul mode or not.

Still hunting for ram fsm.

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05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:07 pm 
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FYI guys, gde said the ram ecodiesel turbo is very restrictive at low psi. Regarding exhaust brake, gde made one for ram, maybe they didn't do a jeep crd because it's not possible/worth? I'd ask Keith or Matt.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:08 pm 
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thermorex wrote:
FYI guys, gde said the ram ecodiesel turbo is very restrictive at low psi. Regarding exhaust brake, gde made one for ram, maybe they didn't do a jeep crd because it's not possible/worth? I'd ask Keith or Matt.


maybe they figured it would take more programming than what it was worth.

I wouldnt want to drive with the exhaust brake "on" all the time. I would rather only have it come on when tow/haul is on, and the torque converter is locked up at 0% throttle. Not sure how well this would work on the factory vanes, the newer vanes are curved and close up alot tighter.

I ordered everything i need to build my "hybrid" turbo and parts should be here next week, i have some light machine work to do and then itll be ready to be balanced and installed for testing of the new vanes and turbine wheel.

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05 Liberty Limited CRD, converted to KPA 2863 ball bearing and billet turbo, 50hp injectorsl, complete egr delete, cooling fan delete, weeks intake kit, cummins in tank lift pump, ARP studs, 3" turbo back exhaust, samcos, etecno plugs, GDE trans tune, custom GDE engine tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:02 am 
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Awesome! Very interested to see where this goes!! Also pics or it didn't happen :)

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:12 am 
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thermorex wrote:
FYI guys, gde said the ram ecodiesel turbo is very restrictive at low psi. Regarding exhaust brake, gde made one for ram, maybe they didn't do a jeep crd because it's not possible/worth? I'd ask Keith or Matt.

I have to correct myself, gde said that "at lower RPMs the turbo has some specifically bad flow characteristics".

The conversation started in relation to surge protection and egr full delete on the ram.

Fwiw, the rest of the answer from gde below. I think it is reasonable to believe that this should be similar behavior to how crd works.

"Surge protection can be managed without opening the EGR valve but it takes a dedicated ECU cal in order to control the VGT vanes in a different way during the tip-out maneuvers and also changes on torque filtering to prevent fast negative changes in fueling. With the stock turbo it's more difficult to achieve a satisfactory result due to poor inertial dynamics of this turbo, the bearing technology is the basic one and there's a lot of friction so the wheels will decelerate quickly when the driving energy is removed. Newer Z-bearing and ball bearing turbos have a much better success rate at achieving this balance."

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Last edited by thermorex on Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ball Bearing CRD turbo
PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:15 am 
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diesel_guy86 wrote:
thermorex wrote:
FYI guys, gde said the ram ecodiesel turbo is very restrictive at low psi. Regarding exhaust brake, gde made one for ram, maybe they didn't do a jeep crd because it's not possible/worth? I'd ask Keith or Matt.


maybe they figured it would take more programming than what it was worth.

I wouldnt want to drive with the exhaust brake "on" all the time. I would rather only have it come on when tow/haul is on, and the torque converter is locked up at 0% throttle. Not sure how well this would work on the factory vanes, the newer vanes are curved and close up alot tighter.

I ordered everything i need to build my "hybrid" turbo and parts should be here next week, i have some light machine work to do and then itll be ready to be balanced and installed for testing of the new vanes and turbine wheel.

On the ram I believe it kicks in at 26-27 hundred rpm, the higher rpm the more efficient it is.

I one think that closing the vanes on no acceleration and rpm over a specific value is possible, maybe gde didn't do this for crd since most people won't need it. Still, I'd ask them. Maybe you already have the answer, vane geometry?

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2005 kj CRD, samco, suncoast tc, provent, Kennedy lift pump, GDE ECO full torque, 2nd gen filter head, 245/70/16 a/t tires, mopar light bar, fumoto oil valve, OEM Skid Plates, ARB Front bumper and HD OME, tru cool LPD47391 40k GVW tranny cooler (stock cooler delete), FF Dynamics e-fan and shroud, rocker arms replaced, HDS2 190F thermostat.


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