Help! My CRD cranks, but wont start!!!!!!

psCRD · **Posted:** Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:07 pm

I've had my CRD for about a year and a half. I read the noob guide, at least twice! I usually can solve problems or answer questions on my own in here and on the FB group, so I don't post much here. I'm very wrenchy, as long as special tools aren't required. That being said, this is my first crd, well, my first diesel, altogether, but I have always loved them, hence, why I bought a liberty CRD.
OK, here's the run down:
Sunday, March 6, I was out for a drive, I floored it for a little fast action for a few seconds to accelerate from about 30 to 60 mph. When I got to about 60-ish, i let off the go pedal to coast back to a more acceptable speed on the road I was on, and it cut off! No loud bangs, pops, pings, NOTHING! It just turned off like i turned the key off. I had it towed to the DCJ Stealership in my area, as they had done my timing belt 1000 mi prior to this, and know other CRDs than mine. They told me it was at least 2 bad injectors, and that repairs would be 6000 dollars to replace all 4. I consulted Geordi for advice, and he said I should take my jeep out of there and that 95 percent of the time when they say bad injectors, it's not, so to take it back and check for air-in-fuel issues. no air in fuel from tank to filter head, and none from filter to pump, but oddly enough, the pump will not pull fuel when I gravity feed it fuel directly while trying to start it. Geordi suggested that the dealer botched my timing job, and to remove the timing cover to verify timing. he came over, verified that all seemed fine with timing and we cranked the hp fuel pump and it was blasting plenty of fuel to the rail. Geordi said it must be the camshaft sensor of the crankshaft sensor. I changed them and it still wont start. can anyone offer any advise on this? I'm starting to think the dealer may have been right about the injectors.
When this problem first happened, Geordi pointed me towards a thread with a similar title where the guy had similar symptoms and ended up finding a valve in his piston. Geordi and I don't think this is what happened to me, but it is awfully similar. Please help if you can.

Efren_Hinojosa · **Joined:** Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:29 pm **Posts:** 42

To check for a dropped valve you can do a compression test.

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dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

I am at that other guy. Same exact scenario. Coast down from highway speed and then nothing - like you switched the key off. Then crank but no start. Long journey to find a dropped valve. What keeps it from starting (because the engine would run on the other 3 cylinders) is a broken/leaking injector. When the broken valve impacts the end of an injector it smashes the tip and then it is impossible to achieve adequate pressure within the common rail system to get any of the injectors to fire.

If I were to do this whole thing over again and start right where you are right now, the first thing I would do after checking the basics (that you have already done) is pull all 4 injectors. Knowing what I know now, I would start with #3 & #4. If you find a broken/wet injector you've found the source of your no-start condition. Then its just a matter of pulling the head to see how severe the damage. In my case it was a a used/reconditioned head & a used piston off ebay.

PS - I would not discount what the dealer told you concerning the bad injector(s). As I noted in one of my previous posts, I used Palmer Performance software to read the codes off my CRD. It pulled the codes you would expect (in hind sight) with a broken injector/no start - codes related to massive fuel loss, etc). But that was it - nothing really pointing me specifically to a broken injector, let alone #3 specifically. Interesting though that when I was at GDE getting the tune (after the engine was all back together again) Keith's software pulled a code (don't know the number) that specifically pointed to a problem with injector #3. If I had known that on day 1 of the failure I would have pulled that injector, at least to have it tested, and discovered the root cause of my no start in the first day of my troubleshooting.

GL

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:52 am

Quote:

we cranked the hp fuel pump and it was blasting plenty of fuel to the rail

It seems the pump is getting fuel and sending it up to the rail.

What about the ASD fuse?
ASD relay?
I there a red dot lit on the instrument cluster that stays lit and never goes out?

What about the rail pressure solenoid at the back of the rail? Is it unplugged?
If it has gone bad or is unplugged, pressure will not build up in the rail. Engine will crank but not start. There should be a code if its bad.
Have you pulled codes yet?

You certainly dont want to assume some sort of catastrophic failure yet.
If everything else checks ok and the rail pressure solenoid is good, the next steps would be pulling the glow plugs and the injectors.
Pulling the injectors takes some persistence but its not the hardest thing to do.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:08 am

The only code in the computer was P0093, which is a positive deviation for the rail pressure sensor. While I'm not sure what it means by positive deviation (reading higher than normal?) I monitored the computer while trying to crank it and Vag-Com live OBD data showed about 5000 psi in the rail.

To me, this doesn't say failed injector, it says that the computer is not allowing them to even fire. I don't know if he has swapped the ASD yet, that was the conversation we had just a few minutes ago.

I would not be adverse to pulling the injectors, but I'd be surprised if the engine cranked so smoothly with a dropped valve in it. It sounds completely normal while spinning.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:49 am

Crank position sensor? Failure won't throw a code and engine will spin but not start. Diagnosis - pull sensor; hook up volt/ohm meter; apply heat from like a hair dryer; if resistance goes nuts sensor is bad. PN 5066882AA or Bosch 0281002434 also apparently Standard Motor Products PC766 or Airtex 5S7000

Rixram · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:05 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Crank position sensor? Failure won't throw a code and engine will spin but not start. Diagnosis - pull sensor; hook up volt/ohm meter; apply heat from like a hair dryer; if resistance goes nuts sensor is bad. PN 5066882AA or Bosch 0281002434 also apparently Standard Motor Products PC766 or Airtex 5S7000

Replacement from IDParts is about $80. If it isn't bad right now, it likely will be soon, based on that being a recent high-failure rate item among board members of late.

Maybe replace the MAP sensor for good measure, while at it. Those take a pounding if the vehicle went w/o the GDE tune for a while.

Call it preventative maintenance.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:06 pm

Similar thread. Might be related:
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=80650

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:09 pm

pap and others are dead on, crank sensor will put you on the side of the road with NO start and no codes!!! Been there done that in the past...
Replace the crank sensor and I bet it will get you going! Autozone sells them and the part that comes out of the box is a Bosch part and looks just like the OEM part. :wink:

Part No. SU8492

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:26 pm

Guys, he has already replaced both the crank sensor and the cam sensor and no results. I haven't heard yet if he has swapped the ASD, but that is the last idea I have about what could be causing this.

rankom · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:55 pm

go to the nearest fuel injection shop , ask them to lend you a cap or old fuel line with capped end , cap each injector (RAIL SIDE ) check and see if rail pressure increases , if it does it will start on 3 cylinders. ask them if cummins cap tool wood work on our crd's

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

rankom wrote:

go to the nearest fuel injection shop , ask them to lend you a cap or old fuel line with capped end , cap each injector (RAIL SIDE ) check and see if rail pressure increases , if it does it will start on 3 cylinders. ask them if cummins cap tool wood work on our crd's

I was going to go this route. In retrospect I am glad I did not. You are correct - it will start & run on 3 cyl. But if a valve is dropped then the last thing you want to do is run the engine more/again and potentially cause more damage. Plus if you've been trying to start it for a while then the cylinder will now be full of fuel - and likely the turbo will also be swamped. I dumped probably a quart out of my turbo.

And to Geordi, my cranked over and sounded perfectly normal. Since my valve end was embedded in the piston and had already created its own 'custom' clearance within the cylinder, there was no more loose pieces of metal or hard contact. It even rolled over easily by hand.

So again, if it were me - and I've been exactly where you are, after you verify the ASD, I would start pulling injectors. I would start with #3 and then #4.

olypopper · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:31 pm

Broken record time. Basics. Do a compression test.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

A compression test on this engine requires a tool that most do not have in their toolbox. Pulling injectors takes simple handtools and only a few mins.

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olypopper · **Posted:** Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:44 pm

dhenderz wrote:

A compression test on this engine requires a tool that most do not have in their toolbox. Pulling injectors takes simple handtools and only a few mins.

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Pulling injectors tell a guy nothing........unless the end is munched, right!?!

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:31 am

Exactly. But every valve drop I have seen so far has munched the bottom of the head and that includes the injector tip.

If it isn't pointy... It's bad news. Also - number them as they come out to keep them in order, and do not try cleaning them with anything other than those blue shop towels or other soft towels.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

Yes, you're looking for the 1 injector with no end/tip that is preventing the rail from building enough pressure to fire. And/or whether the tips, if they are intact, are wet with fuel - a sign they are firing and your problem is elsewhere (ie: electrical).

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:28 am

dhenderz wrote:

Yes, you're looking for the 1 injector with no end/tip that is preventing the rail from building enough pressure to fire. And/or whether the tips, if they are intact, are wet with fuel - a sign they are firing and your problem is elsewhere (ie: electrical).

OK, the rail is capable of building pressure because the computer has already validated that it builds up to 5000 during cranking. Even so, the rail can build pressure unless the injector tip is stuck open. That part shouldn't matter.

dhenderz · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 am **Posts:** 164

geordi wrote:

dhenderz wrote:

Yes, you're looking for the 1 injector with no end/tip that is preventing the rail from building enough pressure to fire. And/or whether the tips, if they are intact, are wet with fuel - a sign they are firing and your problem is elsewhere (ie: electrical).

OK, the rail is capable of building pressure because the computer has already validated that it builds up to 5000 during cranking. Even so, the rail can build pressure unless the injector tip is stuck open. That part shouldn't matter.

Hmmm, I missed that you had mentioned that previously. That adds to the mystery. I believe 5000psi should be adequate to fire the injectors. And even if 1 were stuck (closed obviously), it should run (poorly) on the other 3. Seems unlikely that more than 1 would stick at the same time.

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:02 am

Which is exactly what I told him. Unfortunately, his symptoms are not very conclusive in any given direction. The engine shutdown without warning just like it would with the crank sensor, no codes other then the 93 for the rail pressure sensor, and other than a weak battery (he's been keeping it on charge even while attempting to start it) there have not been any obvious solutions that have presented themselves.

As an added bonus, I validated that the timing was mechanically correct, and spun the fuel pump with a drill and verified that it was sending an ocean of fuel up to the rail. So at this point it is either an electronic issue where the computer is just not firing the injectors, or something more sinister.

Help! My CRD cranks, but wont start!!!!!!

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