WTF!

OK Putting Jeep back together - finally!

Looked all over for head bolt torque values and I see the procedure that says 22 ft.lb. torque then turn another 50 degrees then another 70degrees? WTF! That's about as precise as... well... the term "close enough for government work!"

So, I spent over $300 on ARP studs to get a "close enough" torque value? How the hell do I know if I am turning each nut 45 degrees vs 55 degrees???

What am I missing???

I could see, torque all to 22 ft.lb. then each to 50 ft.lb then each to 70 ft.lb..... something like that. BUT! in the ARP instructions for the kit I got from ID parts talks about torquing them to 125 ft.lb.!!!!! (in 3 equal steps) That is a helluva lot better than a mixed bag of small torque amount then degrees.... As was said in one thread I found "no wonder there are so many head gasket leaks!"

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2006 4X4 CRD Limited Dark Khaki Build Date 03/06 - Her daily driver

Yes I'm old enough to know better

With the ARP studs, the general rule is 130 ft/lbs on the ten inner bolts and 125 for the eight outer ones.
Torque them down evenly following the sequence in the manual.
I did mine 70, 100, then 125/130.

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U.S. Army Retired

Thanks!

Did you torque the studs into the block or "just tight?"

I have never used studs before

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2006 4X4 CRD Limited Dark Khaki Build Date 03/06 - Her daily driver

Yes I'm old enough to know better

I assembled each stud with the nut flush with the end of the stud with washer stuck to the bottom of the nut. Then threaded each set into the block, just tight.
Don't forget the lube on the threads for both the nut and the washer.
I left the block end of the stud dry.

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U.S. Army Retired

To answer your question about how you are suppose to know of you are turning the nut the correct amount of degrees. There is a tool called a torque angle gauge for torque to yield fasteners.

Flash has exactly the right procedure for the studs - with just a couple additional tips:

The lube should be on all the contacting surfaces of the stud, nut, and washer. This includes the two flat faces of the washer on each assembly.

Since you are compressing a new gasket, following the factory tightening pattern to 70 and 100 ft-lbs is correct, and you do NOT need to remove them in between these two steps like the ARP instructions (may) still say. ARP has updated their process and said that the intermediate un-torquing is not statistically significant and can be skipped.

HOWEVER... Before the final torque, you should individually remove each stud and nut assembly and re-set the nut to flush with the top of the stud, and then thread it back into the block until hand-tight with the head. You will see that this will give you another half-turn or so of depth into the block. Then (depending on the location) torque it directly to 130 ft-lbs or 125 ft-lbs, and move on to the next stud to repeat the final process.

Good luck with it, you are doing great!

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

Sage advice!

Thanks to Flash as well! It really is no wonder there have been so many head gasket leaks. Perhaps to those who have repaired many heads on many different types of engines, they possess the "touch" to know when a particular "degree" of pull has been met that will satisfy "consumer" engines.

Over the years, I have learned when I "pulled" too much... It is that gut retching feeling that as you tighten a bolt, "one more 1/2 turn" for good luck... that all of a sudden, you feel the torque "disappear" sometimes with a "pop" and other times silently, like a thief in the night stealing all of your hard work and leaving you with the promise of more work to come. I have no desire to re-visit that lesson when installing the head.

I, am NOT one of those individuals that has the proper "touch." Therefore I need numbers. Specs if you will, that will guide me. I will hopefully be able to document the process in pictures. I have taken several along the way to hopefully help those who are brave enough to venture into the bowels of their little tractor's engine.

Now, there is still no guarantee that she will run once I get her back together! I have NEVER gone this deep into an engine.

If you at all have the means, I would suggest leaving the job to someone like Geordi. My Libby has been down a month, and may, or may not make it back to the road this week.

Well, back to it!

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2006 4X4 CRD Limited Dark Khaki Build Date 03/06 - Her daily driver

Yes I'm old enough to know better

You should lube the stud going into the block as well to prevent galling. It says so right in the ARP instructions.

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2006 LTD Bright Silver loaded with all the needed mods, CCV intact.
Proudly supporting CRD vendors, and their development of quality parts and accessories.
Equipped with HDS thermostat, plenty of heat, faster warm-ups, increased fuel mileage.

Yup,

Lubed both ends of the stud and both faces of the washers AND the bottom of the nut!

All torqued! Now working on putting the rest back together!

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2006 4X4 CRD Limited Dark Khaki Build Date 03/06 - Her daily driver

Yes I'm old enough to know better

Sooooo.....

Got her back together and after finding a hose that wasn't seated properly that sprayed coolant everywhere - she runs! Sputtered at first but she runs... sort of...

Still blew a lot of smoke, but I figured after all the mucking around the smoke would clear after all the codes are cleared and tune in place to turn off the CEL after EGR total lobotomy.

BUT!

Now, she is EATING coolant! lots and lots of bubbling in coolant tank...... AAauuuggghhhh! Drive a block and the low coolant alarm rings. There is no leaking coolant that I can tell. I mean, I let it idle in the driveway and see no leaking coolant anywhere.

Was the head warped? Was the head really cracked and the shop I took it to be pressure tested didn't know what they were doing? Did I screw up the head torque?

Did I say, Aaaaauuuggghhh!!!

As you can tell from the beginning of this thread, she has been down a long time. Did I say, Aaaauuuggghhhh!

I don't want this thing to beat me. But, I don't want to throw good money after bad. Any thoughts?

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2006 4X4 CRD Limited Dark Khaki Build Date 03/06 - Her daily driver

Yes I'm old enough to know better

This is what happened to me.

I later found the cracks by removing the turbo and exhaust manifold, reconnected all coolant hoses, topped off with water, and pressure testing the cooling system at 16psi.
I could then see water dripping out the exhaust ports.

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U.S. Army Retired

Yeah, a coolant pressure test at this point may be the next step. You also should check the dipstick to see if there are two layers. Oil floats on water and all.

Sorry you are continuing to have troubles.

Out of curiosity, which thickness of gasket did you use?

Did they pressure check the combustion chamber AND the water jacket? That's what tends to get people I think. I am adamant with my machinist about this point, and I had him show me the setup, but I'm still nervous that they might decide to skip it sometime, because it's a pain to check. What a colossal waste of labor! At least the ARP's are reusable. I also have them resurface every head to factory spec smoothness. I have just been going up one size on the HG to be safe.
I'd watch some you tube videos on prepping the block also. I spend a lot of time with a razor blade, and then alcohol, acetone, or brake cleaner until it pretty much passes the white glove test. I pay special attention to the fire ring area, but I've also seen these gaskets blow between the water and oil passages. Don't use anything that will scratch the block either. High speed wheels can sand down the block, and ruin it. That copper stuff may work to fill in such voids, but I haven't needed it.

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete

I'm in the process of assembling that engine that I got from you Nick, and haven't even touched it yet - I'm waiting on the head gasket and rockers to arrive right now, and taking the time to wash down everything that I'm going to be putting on the engine. I just bought a parts washer today and it is filled with mineral spirits - seems to be doing a good job so far on cleaning some of the worst mess.

If I knew of a place that sold Kerosene at the pump, I'd probably try that too, as it is bound to be cheaper than the mineral spirits I got from Home Depot at $15/gallon. Ouch.

Anyway, I will be using a 2-hole gasket and the copper-kote on this one, no matter what. It will be sealed, period. Then of course the studs. Like we had talked about when looking at this one, I think that ridge at the center of the liner is the problem: If that impacts the bottom of the head, it *could* be an actual fire-ring kind of design... BUT there isn't a matching and deformable dent in the bottom of the head! So if those contact each other, then the gasket is not being compressed properly and you warp the head. The layers of the gasket are the only sealing surface, so I am inclined to believe thicker is better on the gasket.

The seal of the cylinder and holding the liner down is done by the wider flange of the liner outside that raised ridge, that is why the bottom of the head has a 3/8" wide fire ring mark on it, made of that coating that is on the gasket. You should probably scrape any old off of the head if it is there.

I agree. I am using up my pile of HG's that are thinner than the 2-hole, and then I'll probably just run the 2 hole ones. That's what VM specialist in UK said that they do. I am wondering when I finally put a 2-hole on a no-hole one if it will affect the cold start any, but I doubt it, as it gets pretty cold in the UK. I bet they were just keeping freshly assembled sleeves from bashing around. Might not be a good idea if a fresh sleeve is installed... If fact, I'll measure the ones that I need to replace a sleeve on and use the "correct" HG on them. I'm not worried about any of the other ones which are nicely rusted in place

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,WW Ironrock trilink&LCA's, OX rear,ARB front, 4.10's, ARB bumper, Suncoast,OME 3.5, JBA UCA,rock rails, Moabs&265/75 Duratracs, GDE tunes ,FFD fan,ARP's, 2 micron fuel, new valves,sasquatch battery tray & grid heater, tensioner relocated
Mech fan, VH & AC delete

Considering that I was *bashing the crap* out of the liners and pistons on that seized motor, using a bar and a 6 pound sledge and some FULL bludgeoning swings... I'm of the opinion that these sleeves wouldn't come out easily without an act of God.

As far as the new / replaced sleeves... I reiterate what I said above: The wide flange at the top of the sleeve will be sat on fully by the gasket, so the liner isn't going anywhere. Using a thicker gasket will just put that little bit more pressure on that liner flange, but also prevent that fire ridge from touching the bottom of the head. I don't know what the deal with the measurement is anyway, since it is about measuring the PISTON movement and not liner height from the deck. That is the part I never got anyway, as the piston shouldn't be able to move above the deck, while the liner can be shimmed higher.

_________________
Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps
TRAVELING CRD TECH. I come to you!
Need help? Just ask! I've taken it apart more than most.
Email jeep [at] maincomputer [dot] com - BOARD MESSAGING IS BROKEN
Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
Bad noises = REALLY bad things.

2 hole I think i had a "no holer"

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2006 4X4 CRD Limited Dark Khaki Build Date 03/06 - Her daily driver

Yes I'm old enough to know better

So,

I don't have the heart to check the dipstick or drain the oil.... I think I know what I am going to find. Walked past her this morning to retrieve the newspaper from the driveway. darn, is she a cute lil 'ute!

I have a busy day today with customers and a customer dinner tonight. Perhaps somewhere in between I can pull the dipstick...

If I find water in the oil, I guess it's new head time? Maybe I can do the GM fan mod at the same time. <sniffles>

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2006 4X4 CRD Limited Dark Khaki Build Date 03/06 - Her daily driver

Yes I'm old enough to know better

The proceedure of say 22ft lbs and then turning so many degrees rotation provides a much more accurate and repeatable clamping force that simply using a series of torques.
Why?: because of a wide variations in the friction on the threads and under the bolt head due to variations in surface finish and thread lubricants. These variations can be measured for a given fastener using a skidmore & Lewis torque tension tester. I have seen variations of close to 100% in clamping force with the same torque by changing lube used on the threads, by reusing a nut a second time etc. It is surprising how much of the torque goes into overcoming the frictions vs creating a clamping force. Many manufacturers use degrees of rotation for tightening critical components ---head bolts, con rod bolts etc. Who cares how much torque in ft lbs for a head bold, what is important is accurate clamping force ie head bold/stud stretch. Best method of torquing rod bolts is by measuring how much the bolt stretches and then stretching them all the same.

We have already had this discussion, but for the sake of clarity I will post this again here.

We are operating under instructions and designs from ARP, who have very carefully engineered their products with years of research into exactly the things you are referencing on a multitude of applications.

The block threads are not a factor with the factory studs, because the stud is not rotating against those threads. It also does not have any lubricant on the block threads. The only surfaces that are involved are the narrow threads between the studs and their nuts (both hardened steel) and the face of the nut and the two sides of the hardened washer. Each of these surfaces receives ARP's known-characteristic assembly lube, and the washer supplies a known-quantity of a mating surface for the nut to compress against. This eliminates all but the capabilities of the head itself from the equation. Since we do not have any way to measure block stretch or bolt stretch in the final assembly application, we have to trust ARP's research that the factory bolts (which they were provided with) are creating a 19,000 PSI compressive force at the factory process, and to achieve that same force the ARP stud needs to be torqued to 130 lbs when installed with lube as described. Within this process and at these specifications, the stud is being brought to approximately 75% of its elastic range, well within a safe margin for predictable reusability in this application.

This isn't a theoretical discussion about the efficacy of the factory bolts or ways to use them, this is installation of a more finely engineered product that duplicates the overall purpose of the fastener, while exceeding the original spec by eliminating exactly the variances that you are so concerned about.

TTY bolts are a compromise to allow for a single installation procedure to be done, rather than a multi-step multi-part process that would cost more at the time of manufacturing and offer no benefit to the manufacturer and little chance for recovery of cost by increasing the price of the vehicle. Why do race teams utilize studs from ARP if using TTY bolts and the Pfetzer-Magnussen angle stretch gaugerometer produces such a perfectly predictable compression force on a head gasket?

Because it doesn't in the real world? This may only be my opinion, but what is not opinion is this: There are more than several hundred CRDs currently running around with studs and without head gasket leaks because the clamping force IS more predictable and sufficient with the studs, and the CRDs that have not had them replaced are simply running on borrowed time until they do have leaks. There are also hundreds more VW TDIs that have replaced the bolts with studs for much the same reason.

Doing nothing else than replacing the bolts with studs has cured many vehicles, where less than 5 have been shown to have actual head cracking as the source of their leak. DadsDiesel has yet to be conclusively shown where the cause is, but I know that it is not the studs, because they work.