CRD drawbacks: Under Engineering and Planned Obsolescence

ShaqDiesel · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 12:58 am

I'll preface this post by saying that I love my '06 Liberty CRD. The MPGs and torque from this little dandy are magnificent from an SUV of its size. It does everything I want and functions well in all kinds of environments. The cost to get the vehicle performing where it should is negatively affecting my pocket book, however. In total, I've spent over $2000 so far, with a few more expensive mods to go.

In typical Chrysler fashion, have purposely under engineered several parts on this vehicle, effectively designing them to fail. The scheme behind this "planned obsolescence" is to get the vehicle owner back to the dealership for an expensive bill. This fix is typically an updated part that is engineered correctly - the way it should have been in the first place. These actions displayed by the Chrysler corporation are not only annoying and expensive, they are highly unethical.

That's how this forum is so valuable: it is a great place to learn about how to update your CRD so you won't have to go back to the dealership and reinforce their unethical behaviors.

I've compiled a list of brief items on the CRDs that are under engineered or are problematic in some way:

- Window regulators that break under normal operation (meets the definition of planned obsolescence perfectly; I've replaced all four)
- Stock torque converter will not handle the vehicle's torque output, resulting in shudder and possible transmission problems
- Stock fuel filter head assembly prone to leaking, heater head failure, and fires
- Boost hoses that fail after constant exposure to soot and oil from the EGR
- An EGR system that recirculates exhaust gas to the intake resulting in several problems (boost hoses, MAP, etc). Note: the EGR was designed for emissions related purposes, but it still sucks.

I encourage those newbies out there (I am one) to use this forum to your advantage. Ask questions and do research on past discussions to get through your CRD problems without paying the dealership. Chrysler doesn't deserve your money.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 9:19 am

To add to his good advise:
Anyone thinking of on buying a used Jeep CRD should be forewarned and prepared to spend around 2-4k on parts just getting the little Jeep diesel into reliable shape and that is if you do most of the work yourself...
Things that will need to be done in a timely manner:
-Timing belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, and stationary guide pulleys (depending on the service history & time)
-Weeks elbow kit, deletes and disables the EGR system, a must for engine life
-Intake hose between air box and turbo, gets soggy and splits from oil contamination from CCV
-Boost hoses, OEM ones gets soggy and leaks from oil contamination from CCV
-Provent filter, filters the oil out of the intake system, only the fumes are burned
-Glow plugs, if any have failed
-Fuel filter head, if it is still the generation I, they leak and can cause a fire hazard and / or air leakage into fuel
-Lift Pump, preferably an in-tank unit, eliminates all kinds of air in fuel and fuel starvation problems
-Serpentine belt and tensioner pulley
-Alternator decoupler pulley, they have a history of failure
-Battery, if is not 800 CCA or above
-New springs, especially the fronts as they sag over time, and new shocks front & rear
-Window regulators, as they break, Autozone has some with lifetime warranty
-On board computer re-flash (tune) to add more power and torque
-New torque converter, a must if you add an upgraded tune with more HP & torque output
-Other possibles: Thermostat, head gasket, valve rockers, head studs, control arms, ball joints, CV joints, driveshaft joints, etc...

A long sundrie list indeed, but what a great little unique vehicle you will have once you get most these things done as required! It is like no other on the road today, a very limited production vehicle with a few very lucky souls who happen to own one. A small very capable 4x4 SUV that has great power for its size and can get good fuel milage if you can keep your foot out of it most of the time, and can tow a loaded trailer!!!!
And to become a member of the LOST family...your Liberty's best friend!
:BANANA:

thermorex · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 11:17 am

WWDiesel wrote:

To add to his good advise:
Anyone thinking of on buying a used Jeep CRD should be forewarned and prepared to spend around 2-4k on parts just getting the little Jeep diesel into reliable shape and that is if you do most of the work yourself...
Things that will need to be done in a timely manner:
-Timing belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, and stationary guide pulleys (depending on the service history & time)
-Weeks elbow kit, deletes and disables the EGR system, a must for engine life
-Intake hose between air box and turbo, gets soggy and splits from oil contamination from CCV
-Boost hoses, OEM ones gets soggy and leaks from oil contamination from CCV
-Provent filter, filters the oil out of the intake system, only the fumes are burned
-Glow plugs, if any have failed
-Fuel filter head, if it is still the generation I, they leak and can cause a fire hazard and / or air leakage into fuel
-Lift Pump, preferably an in-tank unit, eliminates all kinds of air in fuel and fuel starvation problems
-Serpentine belt and tensioner pulley
-Alternator decoupler pulley, they have a history of failure
-Battery, if is not 800 CCA or above
-New springs, especially the fronts as they sag over time, and new shocks front & rear
-Window regulators, as they break, Autozone has some with lifetime warranty
-On board computer re-flash (tune) to add more power and torque
-New torque converter, a must if you add an upgraded tune with more HP & torque output
-Other possibles: Thermostat, head gasket, valve rockers, head studs, control arms, ball joints, CV joints, driveshaft joints, etc...

A long sundrie list indeed, but what a great little unique vehicle you will have once you get most these things done as required! It is like no other on the road today, a very limited production vehicle with a few very lucky souls who happen to own one. A small very capable 4x4 SUV that has great power for its size and can get good fuel milage if you can keep your foot out of it most of the time, and can tow a loaded trailer!!!!
And to become a member of the LOST family...your Liberty's best friend!
:BANANA:

Totally agree, it's at minimum 2k, this if just doing torque converter, provent and the scheduled immediate maintenance. Which makes lots of people to go buy another vehicle as this jeep will cost way more than a gasser.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 11:38 am

Now, if they rally were redesigning parts properly it wouldn't be so bad. The truth is that if you go back to Chrysler they are simply selling us the same crappy parts over and over again e.g. window regulators, thermostat, EGR, FCV, alt pulley, fan clutch etc. Any improvements they do make are half assed e.g. 5V glow plugs, ball joints, torque converter etc. You really need to go aftermarket to get well thought out and properly engineered solutions.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 12:45 pm

Just move to 7000 ft above sea level and the TC shudder wont be an issue anymore. I noticed a big drop in power from the 300 ft I was at in MA. My EcoBoost F150 didnt even notice.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 2:12 pm

I'm not all that fond of any vehicle company OEM part quality and DCJ is no better or significantly worse than for example Ford a.k.a. Fix On Race Day or Found on Road Dead; yep rebuilt a 1965 Mustang Fastback so I know. Every vehicle line import or domestic has quirks that we can all love or hate. Been there done that - have you ever dealt with Lucas (a.k.a British) electrics (dead short to ground won't blow a 20 amp fuse but will set wiring on fire) or balancing a pair of SU downdraft carbs; yep rebuilt an MGA and installed an MGB engine. In some cases for the KJ CRD there are OEM fixes such as the 2 gen fuel filter head, in some cases there is nothing wrong with the OEM part such as the alternator pulley sorry but after a while any alternator decoupler pulley just like any pulley will wear out, and in some cases there are better aftermarket alternatives such as fan clutch and the metal window regulator fix and in some cases aftermarket stuff is crap and won't even fit without machining (been there done that too).

The trick is to learn where the problems or potential problems are and deal with them or prepare to deal with them.

Speaking of under engineering has anyone considered that VM at least designed this diesel interference engine (IIRC all diesel engines are interference) so the rockers collapse instead of valves contacting pistons to save the engine of that nit wit owner who tries to run the timing belt for 10+ years and/or 150,000 miles until the belt goes. I've seen interference engines with timing belts without that feature and when the belt goes it's not pretty. Yes I know the engine could have used a timing chain but before singing the praises of chains I wish I had a picture of the chain I saw at 95,000 miles that was loose as a rope with almost no teeth left on the timing gears.

Let the flaming begin.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 4:35 pm

All correct
- but, you all, collectively, must remember: this engine\chassis package was obsoleted by VM and DCJ in 2006\2007, with no plans for upgrades\fixes\improvements
- you may or may not have noticed, but there has not been one single new vehicle on the market with the VM2.8L CRD TurboDiesel since back then - the '07 exports were just end-runs, clearing out the inventory on both continents
- only major revision was recovery from plastic-stator fiasco which resulted in EURO revision TC (?)upgrade
- fuel manager head revision was prolly upgraded by oem, not DCJ
- glow-plug upgrades(?) resulted from lack of demand for oem versions during "new" period
- all else is as-was
- best of all, we get to figger out how to maintain\upgrade it without too many factory constraints since warranty and support is far gone and long forgotten
- so, buy one, invest some cash in it, pay attention to what you read here, perform the suggested (required) conformances , and you have a unique modern CRD Turbodiesel without paying $1.75mil for a 'limited edition, one of only so many' to roll off an assembly line

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 6:01 pm

Huh the Jeep KJ model run was model years 2002-2007 with the diesel VM R425/8 I4 fitted for all those model years although the diesel (2.8L R428 I4) was only available in the US for the 2005-06 model years. The KJ was replaced by the KK in model years 2008-2013 and outside the US that included the diesel VM RA428 I4 which was a modification of the R425/8 engine. That engine "family" began production in model year 2001 and as far as I can tell is still in production, although I'll admit not sold in the US.

To say that the KJ model chassis was obsoleted by DCJ in 2007 is, IMHO a bit of a stretch. Sure the Jeep Liberty model was redesigned but so have dozens of other model lines. Think Mustang or Vette thru the years. Now did DCJ continue to provide adequate support to prior year models probably not but then try to get 1965 Mustang body parts from Ford.

Same with the engine. The VM engine evolved over the years noted above but then Ford Windsor small block V-8 started production in 1962 as IIRC a 221 cu in and evolved to 289 to 302 to 351 and continues in production today in both 302 and 351 versions. Again did DCJ continue to provide adequate US support, assuming they ever did, no but..

Bottom line the KJ chassis production was ca. 1.3 million, no clue how many sold in the US, and general KJ parts, as opposed to CRD specific parts, and are not hard to obtain. That includes a lot of the running gear such as the transmission which is an extremely common on in the DCJ lineup (ex. see a recent post about dropping in a tranny from a 2WD 2009 Ram 4.7 V8. On the other hand, like I've said before, the CRD specific portions of the vehicle (especially those directly associated with the guts of the engine) never were adequately supported by DCJ not that this is much of a surprise given only ca. 13,000 or so being sold in the US in the 05/06 model years.

Frankly I bought my original 05, long lost to being rear ended by a dump truck, with full knowledge that I was buying into a small production run special vehicle but was willing to do so because it met my specific needs. Would I do it again; well I did when I replaced the wrecked 05. Would I do it again after that; well I helped my son buy his 06 and a friend buy an 05. My son's still driving his 06, dragged 2,000 lbs + of trailer and who knows how much inside the Jeep cross country twice on the OEM torque converter with no problems. Friend sold his with somewhat over 100,000 miles of no problem driving other than blowing a CAC hose while Samcos were on order. Would I buy a used one today if mine blew up; who knows. I'd sure consider it given the wonderful support from this forum and Sir Sam's guide.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 6:09 pm

Ok, my bad - I tho't we were discussing the VM2.8L CRD\KJ chassis combination - guess I musta missed where the entire 01-07 spark-infested version was the topic (and, in a CRD-specific forum, at that) - guess I'll just go back in my corner and quietly fester, eh................................

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 6:27 pm

No need to fester or if so I'll join you. All I was trying to say is there is a tendency to mix KJ issues, examples including window regulators, brakes, automatic transmission (excluding torque converter), with KJ CRD issues, examples including the rubber band timing belt, EGR, engine internals, and torque convertor. The former are relatively easy to address even at a dealer and parts are readily available. The latter can be a different matter but with the help of this forum and folks like idparts and GDE we muddle along.

Is the KJ CRD adequately supported by DCJ in the US; no and given the short run that's no surprise. Is the KJ CRD under engineered and planned for obsolescence; IMHO no more than a host of other vehicles going back decades. In fact in some ways the CRD is over engineered if by that one means designed on a CAD system with no input from folks who have to service the beast. Think replacing #3 glow plug or the entire water pump for starters.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 6:28 pm

gmctd wrote:

Ok, my bad - I tho't we were discussing the VM2.8L CRD\KJ chassis combination - guess I musta missed where the entire 01-07 spark-infested version was the topic (and, in a CRD-specific forum, at that) - guess I'll just go back in my corner and quietly fester, eh................................

I thought the discussion was just about the engine which is the only thing that makes the Liberty CRD unique.
And it's not really a unique engine either. Lots of European Chrysler models have used this engine in one form or another from about 2002 to present.
Only here in the U.S. is that engine such an odd ball.

gmctd · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 7:02 pm

No prob - just messin' with you
- point being, we been outmoded, obsoleted and superceded,
- very good thing that we do have a good line on how to manage from there

I still think the reason for so many deteriorated rocker arm pivots is that MOBIL ONE is NOT suitable for Turbodiesel service, nor are any of the other popular substitutes
- the C(X) rating tells that tale, but it's done too late now because that's what was popularly used by some previous (and some current) owners
- hey, oil's oil, right?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 10:04 pm

And a lot of Jeep dealers as a whole have never even seen a CRD Liberty in their service department, much less know how to work on the motor or associated equipment. When you pull into a Jeep a dealer service area and salesmen and mechanics start gathering around saying they did not know Jeep ever made a Liberty diesel, it should be a very huge clue; time to leave.... :shock:

Been there and experienced this on the trailer hitch recall...got a good laugh out of it!
You DO NOT ever want them working on your diesel!!!! :roll:

You, ID parts, Geordi, and LOST are your Jeep diesel's best friend....... :goink:

geordi · **Posted:** Tue May 05, 2015 12:14 am

WWDiesel wrote:

You, ID parts, Geordi, and LOST are your Jeep diesel's best friend....... :goink:

*ahem* Fixed that for you.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue May 05, 2015 12:33 am

gmctd wrote:

No prob - just messin' with you
- point being, we been outmoded, obsoleted and superceded,
- very good thing that we do have a good line on how to manage from there

I still think the reason for so many deteriorated rocker arm pivots is that MOBIL ONE is NOT suitable for Turbodiesel service, nor are any of the other popular substitutes
- the C(X) rating tells that tale, but it's done too late now because that's what was popularly used by some previous (and some current) owners
- hey, oil's oil, right?

Gmctd, which oil do you recommend? I'd like to use the best available. I hope you're answer isn't the expensive imported stuff!

geordi · **Posted:** Tue May 05, 2015 1:20 am

gmctd wrote:

No prob - just messin' with you
- point being, we been outmoded, obsoleted and superceded,
- very good thing that we do have a good line on how to manage from there

I still think the reason for so many deteriorated rocker arm pivots is that MOBIL ONE is NOT suitable for Turbodiesel service, nor are any of the other popular substitutes
- the C(X) rating tells that tale, but it's done too late now because that's what was popularly used by some previous (and some current) owners
- hey, oil's oil, right?

Uhm - Beg to differ on the oil.

This isn't a case where if you ask 5 people you get 12 opinions about oil - The Mobil One Turbo Diesel Truck IS AN APPROVED OIL according to VM. So is the Shell Rotella T6. If you can get it, Delvac synthetic is also a supremely good option.

According to VM and the owners manual, we can use anything that is CH or better, and that includes the M1-TDT which (I believe) is a CJ-4 rating now.

This engine is old enough (and if the EGR is eliminated) that even a CF would probably be fine... But why take the chance when TDT or T6 are readily available?

edit: Sorry, had too many browser windows open and I missed this reply that I was typing up hours ago. Oops.

flman · **Posted:** Tue May 05, 2015 7:44 am

10 year old vehicle? Who cares if it has some problems, they all do..................

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue May 05, 2015 10:33 am

geordi is mostly correct - BUT
- even he missed the obvious: as PLAINLY stated, MOBIL ONE is not suitable for CRD TurboDiesel service
- MOBIL ONE TDT (and other TD compatible oils) was not EVEN mentioned, as far as I can re-read my post

- MOBIL 1 is not rated for the temperatures produced in a TURBOCHARGED Diesel engine, nor even a turbocharged spark-infested engine.
This is why OEM's upgraded the requirements for turbocharged gasoline-fueled engines to turboDiesel specs
- doesn't matter whether you have EGR or not
- it's the higher temperatures on the under-side of the oil-spray cooled turboDiesel pistons\crowns
- a. oil-spray cooling is used even in normally-aspirated Diesel engines
- b. oil-spray cooling is seldom used in oem spark-infested engines
- c. purpose-built hi-perf gasoline-fueled racing engines and turbocharged engines require oil-spray cooling, with upgraded C(X) rated oils
- it's the extreme exhaust temperatures generated in the turbocharger turbine which are direct-coupled into the cartridge center-section which is lubed by engine oil that quickly deteriorates oil lubricating quality
- heat-deteriorated oil is not suitable for the higher pressures generated by high compression ratios and high low-rpm torque into the rod and crank bearings
- heat-deteriorated oil is not suitable for the purpose-built interference-function designed into the stamped-steel rocker arm\pivot fulcrum area

So, always check the C(X) specifications of the oil you intend to use in the VM2.8L CRD TurboDiesel engine - or the RAM CUMMINS, or the FxxD 6.0, or the GM DMaxx turboDiesel engines
- your selection must be rated for TURBODIESEL service
- if you don't see the rating, don't buy or use that oil
- cheap will get you by UNTIL YOU NEED NEW ROCKER ARMS AND LIFTERS - then compare the savings, eh.........

MOBIL ONE (1) IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH TURBODIESEL ENGINES, CRD OR EARLIER VERSIONS

MOBIL ONE (1) TDT is the upgrade for turboDiesel service

NOTE:
- EGR merely caused the gummy mess in the intake, mainly resulted from cooking the oil-saturated crankcase effluent (blow-by) sucked into the turbo compressor
- even if you eliminate EGR, you will still need PROVENT\equiv to remove the excessive oil-saturation from the normal blow-by gasses
- this saturation is resulted from the high temperatures of the pistons and the extreme temperatures of the return-oil from the turbocharger center cardridge which is cooked-off into vaporization

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue May 05, 2015 11:44 am

geordi wrote:

WWDiesel wrote:

You, ID parts, Geordi, and LOST are your Jeep diesel's best friend....... :goink:

*ahem* Fixed that for you.

Yep, sorry bout that Geordi, fixed it, long day and late night typing... :lol:

thermorex · **Posted:** Tue May 05, 2015 12:39 pm

Mountainman wrote:

gmctd wrote:

No prob - just messin' with you
- point being, we been outmoded, obsoleted and superceded,
- very good thing that we do have a good line on how to manage from there

I still think the reason for so many deteriorated rocker arm pivots is that MOBIL ONE is NOT suitable for Turbodiesel service, nor are any of the other popular substitutes
- the C(X) rating tells that tale, but it's done too late now because that's what was popularly used by some previous (and some current) owners
- hey, oil's oil, right?

Gmctd, which oil do you recommend? I'd like to use the best available. I hope you're answer isn't the expensive imported stuff!

Whatever idparts sells for tdi (they also have 5w30 oils) is good for us. And it's not super expensive. This is what I'd probably get after I'm done with my Mobil 1 0w40 and 5w40 tdt stashes.

CRD drawbacks: Under Engineering and Planned Obsolescence

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