Diagnosing a CRD transmission problem

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:15 pm

On the way home from an out of state trip last week, I started getting slippage in OD at highway speeds. I checked the fluid (hot,granted...) and it looked fine. I'm at about 30k miles since the change, but they've not been "strenuous miles".
Anyway, dropping the speed down and later simply running it with OD turned off solve the slippling/hunting problem until we got home and I had a chance to read the codes. Once there, I had a P0700, P0720, and one of the P073X range (need to re-check notes). Anyway, I ordered a new speed sensor since they're known to fail. Once it arrived, I installed it and the problem is actually WORSE now. I'm getting slipping and hard shifts in the 1-3 range and the 0720 keeps returning.

Is there something else that could be going on that would manifest to the TCM as a failed output sensor (like a malfunctioning input sensor...)?

Looking for ideas here. I have all I need to do a normal fluid/filter change, but if I'm going to need to change something internally, I'd rather wait to rather the parts than have to crack the pan twice.

Dan

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:07 pm

Was it slipping while climbing hills or while accelerating?
If you are absolutely sure that what you are experiencing is not torque converter shudder, then OD clutch pack is probably worn out.

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:35 pm

flash7210 wrote:

Was it slipping while climbing hills or while accelerating?
If you are absolutely sure that what you are experiencing is not torque converter shudder, then OD clutch pack is probably worn out.

I don't know if I've ever experienced the "shudder" (and it's the original clutch at about 120k miles), so not sure what to say there. I do know that it's happened consistently (rough shifts, revving a bit too high under moderate throttle before shifting in suburban traffic, etc.). I probably haven't even gone fast enough to be IN overdrive in the past 3 days, but have experienced the erratic behavior (and re-appearance of the fault after clearing it) several times.

Again, the only thing I've done to troubleshoot so far is replace the output speed sensor. I may put my old output sensor on the input side tonight to see if the code was just a red herring.

Would fluid overdue for a change (or a bit burned) cause this kind of thing? Perhaps I should just go ahead and change the fluid/filters and hope for the issue to resolve itself.

Dan

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:18 pm

Dan, real dark colored fluid that smells burnt indicates that the fluid has way overheated... Changing the fluid may help temporary but I suspect the clutch and band surfaces may have overheated and are now crystallized (hardened) and will require replacement. As a temporary stop gap method, get the vehicle to a good transmission shop and let them change all the fluid and filters along with pumping / exchanging new fresh fluid in the torque converter (requires shop pump system) which holds over half the volume of the transmission and then add a quart of Lucas Transmission Fix along with the new ATF+4.... This may get you back going for a while, but I would plan on a transmission overhaul or replacement in the future....

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:22 pm

If the fluid smells burnt, looks burnt, or tastes burnt then yes, definitely change the fluid and filter.

A bad clutch pack means a complete overhaul or new transmission.
Along with new fluid you can adding one of the many additives available to see if that helps.

Shudder usually occurs at 50+ mph in 4th or 5th gears. While under hard acceleration or pulling a heavy load. Fixing that would require a new torque converter.

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:54 am

I read up on the shudder and I don't think I'm getting that at all. It's not slipping (torque-wise), just not shifting at the proper points. I swapped the input sensor out with the one I removed from the output side last night and there was no change in the codes, so I think the entire 0720 thing was a red herring.

I checked the fluid again and about 2 hours after shutdown (still warm, though) the level was just below the hot fill range. Also, it still appears red and doesn't have any particular smell to it.

The shifting problems are most obvious between 1-2 and 2-3 (with the revs going up to 3200-3300 before shifting at only moderate accelerator press). I need to do some higher-speed cycles but my only chance for highway speeds is during rush-hour. I may pop out at lunch to do a couple test runs on the interstate ramps nearby. Perhaps on the way to a transmission shop if I can find one that isn't affiliated with one of the local stealers.

Assuming I'm NOT getting slippage in the torque converter, maybe I'll get lucky and not have to replace any hard components.

I was googling around and some folks reported that replacing the spring and or sleeve one of of the solenoids and possibly and upgraded backer plate was a quick fix to the "not shifting when it's supposed to in several gears" problem.

Dan

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:44 am

If the problem is with some sticky valves, the TransGo shift kit might help.
It includes new springs, seals, and backplate.

New fluid, filters, and shift kit are waaay easier and cheaper than dropping the transmission.

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:27 am

Well, it's a local transmission shop that was highly regarded by a couple local mechanics that I trust. Sure enough, the owner invited me for the ride-along and explained everything coming up on his snap-on scanner, why some of them (or lack therof) are extremely odd, and why he wants to keep it a couple more hours, get his lead re-builder in the car with his personal whizbang scanner for a second opinion. He mentioned it's likely the fact that the CRD has a secondary controller for the trans may be the cause of the erroneous absent readings and that the alternate scanner could possibly have a firmware that can read it. He admitted it's his first time working on this engine/trans combo but the company had a pretty extensive knowledge base (he's the operator of a branded franchise).

This is all at no charge, mind you. The diagnosis is free until they actually have to replace/rebuild something. He asked if I mind if he cracks the pan to inspect for any physical signs or wear or damage if the troubleshooting leads that way, and I said since it needs a fluid and filter change anyway, that'd be fine. He asked if I have a leak on the driver's rear of the pan since every 45-RFE he's seen does (as does mine) and said he'd give it his special RTV blend that keeps that from happening

I wish I could have figured it out myself, but I'm happy to have someone with better equipment and experience do it who isn't trying to fleece me. At the very worst, I likely found a new place to do my fluid and filter services when I don't have the time.

Will keep y'all posted.

Dan

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:07 pm

You did the right thing!!! :wink:

There is nothing like having a very good transmission expert available that you can trust, I know because I have one in my area... I would not let anyone else but him touch any of my vehicles transmissions. He installed my Suncoast TC, new front pump assembly, and Transgo kit in my Jeep CRD, and several years ago he installed a Suncoast TC, Transgo kit, and serviced my Dodge Cummins transmission. He later had to repair 2nd gear in my Dodge that I lost due to a broken part. He has worked on several other transmissions on earlier vehicles I owned along with quite a few friends and coworkers that I sent to him. He is very very good at what he does and has an excellent reputation for being honest and standing behind his work!

dgeist · **Posted:** Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:48 am

UPDATE

The jeep was left at the shop overnight and they cracked the pan first thing this morning. There was very little metal in the pan (normal levels) and only a small amount of friction material, so neither the clutch nor any hard parts appear to have grenaded themselves. The fluid is also still red and is not burnt after about 35k miles. Filters are intact and in place, but need replacing anyway. The diagnosis is that the solenoid pack is likely causing a lot of the TCM-related strangeness and unpredictable shifting but it COULD still need to be rebuilt. Taking the conservative approach, fluid (including xfer case since it needs it), filters, a new Mopar solenoid pack and labor will set me back about $700, which I'm okay with.

IF that doesn't' solve the problem, further teardown may be needed, but the owner said they'd only charge me once for the fluids and labor for opening it up if I want him to go deeper. Hopefully the new solenoids and slippery stuff will solve the problem.

P.S. If anyone happens to have a known-working TCM for a 2005 CRD, I may be willing to buy or perhaps borrow + shipping costs if that's a possibility.

Dan

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:07 am

This happened to me..... the mechanic said it was sticktion .... varnish stuck to plates and valve bodies and that dismantling and brushing off the plates would solve it. I didn't go that route.... I instead used some quality transmission varnish cleaner dissolver from Germany ... I forget the name. Transmission has had no issue since.. been a year now. Expensive solvent though.

wilco549 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:21 am

dgeist wrote:

UPDATE

P.S. If anyone happens to have a known-working TCM for a 2005 CRD, I may be willing to buy or perhaps borrow + shipping costs if that's a possibility.

Dan

PM sent.

dgeist · **Posted:** Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:29 pm

Update: my shop requested a replacement unit from LKQ and after locating one in Texas and ordering it, it was to arrive at their local warehouse on the 21st. In the mean time, the LKQ sales guy goes on vacation, and the warehouse receives it then looses it, but gives my shop some line about having to do some new paperwork to get delivered (from one side of Atlanta to 45 miles away on the OTHER side of Atlanta). The shop finally escalated it today and found out the warehouse was full of "it" and had lost the shipment and spent several days looking for it, then gave up, never to advise the customer that the shipment was lost (no pun intended).

Anyone else have a TCM handy? Waiting to hear back from Wilco, but would love other alternatives. Going on 11 days sans-vehicle waiting for a part.

Dan

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:03 pm

I spent most of the morning at pull-a-part looking for anything with a 545-RFE and found two 2001 GC (545-RFE) and one 2002 KJ 3.7 (45-RFE). Of those, only two of the three had TCMs in place (the second GC still had its transmission, but no controller or cable. Here they are:

Does anyone know what behavior to expect putting a GC-WJ or gasser KJ controller on the CRD? I'm hoping it'll at least run and shift without failures. Possibly at different times, and possibly not into overdrive, but I can deal with that until I have a better option.

Dan

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:17 pm

If you can find a TCM from a Dodge Ram, look for P/N 56029053AE

The 45rfe TCM might work but you wont get 5th gear.
The other one might work. Only way to know is to try it.

In any case, any 545rfe TCM that is not from a CRD will have different shift points but should still go through all the gears.

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:26 pm

flash7210 wrote:

If you can find a TCM from a Dodge Ram, look for P/N 56029053AE

The 45rfe TCM might work but you wont get 5th gear.
The other one might work. Only way to know is to try it.

In any case, any 545rfe TCM that is not from a CRD will have different shift points but should still go through all the gears.

I looked for RAM 1500s with the model years that used 545-RFE and found none at the yard. There was a durango, but it was WAY stripped with barely anything left in the engine bay, not trans, no driveshafts, etc Knowing I probably am not going to get "correct" behavior, can other model numbers that are still compatible boards be reflashed to have the CRD shift points, or does it have to be one of the CRD TCMs ?

Dan

wilco549 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:01 pm

PM sent.

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:59 am

Well, none of the junkyard TCMs worked, and I obtained Wilco's unit (after the postal service borked up the shipment the first time...I seriously regret nor just making the 4 hour drive up there to get it...)

After dropping off the known-good-and-matching-model number unit this morning, the jeep tried to crank once, then would not try again. Relay is firing, fuel pump has power, etc. and there's a strange persistent code in the ECM. The shop had ALSO left the rear lift glass open over the holiday weekend (granted, it was indoors) and the battery was basically dead. They threw the charger on it for a couple hours and now the ignition won't seem to trigger the starter at all. Lights and basic accessories work, though. The shop called their "on-site re-programmer" services and they seem to think that replacing the TCM without battery power to the ECM may have triggered some kind of anti-theft mode. This is something I'd never heard of, but I'm willing to give it a try. They might just need to reprogram the keys or something as well (crossing fingers).

My bigger concern is that they might flash the ECM with a non-GDE tune and the vehicle will start throwing all kinds of crazy codes due to the various <ahem> modifications I've done. I told the shop it has an aftermarket engine tune and not to touch that if possible.

I'm wondering if they killed my battery (die hard platinum AGM, but NOT deep-cycle) or if the "anti-theft-mode" thing is actually a thing.

Dan

dgeist · **Posted:** Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:15 am

And ...as of this morning, the battery (Die Hard Platinum) is dead. A new battery in its place and the engine fired back up. The surrogate computer is in and all the symptoms are exactly the same. I'm now being told that they need to pull the transmission and do a diagnostic tear-down to do anything further (about $600). Beyond that, if a complete rebuild is needed, I'll be into it for about $2500.

Is this reasonable sounding or am I getting hung out to dry?

P.S. I HATE automatic transmissions. This is the first I've owned and I wish it could be my last.

wilco549 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:12 pm

Sorry to hear that.

I put a used Durango trans in mine....about $300 delivered for low miles (90k) transmission from a '07 or '08 (can't remember). Probably would have cost another 350-400 to have it installed by a local garage but I did it myself....just a lower cost option.

Diagnosing a CRD transmission problem

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