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Have you had a valve failure? Please fill out the form below (hit quote on post 2) if you have!
Yes 18%  18%  [ 10 ]
No 29%  29%  [ 16 ]
Not Yet (But I'm worried) 38%  38%  [ 21 ]
Not Yet (Not worried) 16%  16%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 56
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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:58 pm 
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PZKW108 wrote:
So we have 3 valve failures out of this whole forum !!

most of em with really high millage and most of em are from vehicule geordi have work on the engine......

Yes I agree we have some kind of alarming trend going on here !

Other than the respondants here and Georids experience, there have been several others who had broken valves. One of which was in Austria (Villach). He reported it in the KJ 4x4 section as he was looking for a replacement engine.

If you ask me, the valve failures are within of normal range of failure rates for any mass produced internal combustion engine. But that only going off of whats been reported here. Lots of CRD owners do not report on this forum.
But that still doesnt answer the question or why it happens.
Was it a bad production run or something else?

In any case, engine parts are expensive and hard to find here in the US. So any effort to prevent potential engine failure is a benifit.

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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:09 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
PZKW108 wrote:
So we have 3 valve failures out of this whole forum !!

most of em with really high millage and most of em are from vehicule geordi have work on the engine......

Yes I agree we have some kind of alarming trend going on here !

Other than the respondants here and Georids experience, there have been several others who had broken valves. One of which was in Austria (Villach). He reported it in the KJ 4x4 section as he was looking for a replacement engine.

If you ask me, the valve failures are within of normal range of failure rates for any mass produced internal combustion engine. But that only going off of whats been reported here. Lots of CRD owners do not report on this forum.
But that still doesnt answer the question or why it happens.
Was it a bad production run or something else?

In any case, engine parts are expensive and hard to find here in the US. So any effort to prevent potential engine failure is a benifit.


If you ask me too , the valve failures are within of normal range of failure rates so what is this post all about then ??

why is this post a sticky ??


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:20 pm 
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PZKW108 wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
PZKW108 wrote:
So we have 3 valve failures out of this whole forum !!

most of em with really high millage and most of em are from vehicule geordi have work on the engine......

Yes I agree we have some kind of alarming trend going on here !

Other than the respondants here and Georids experience, there have been several others who had broken valves. One of which was in Austria (Villach). He reported it in the KJ 4x4 section as he was looking for a replacement engine.

If you ask me, the valve failures are within of normal range of failure rates for any mass produced internal combustion engine. But that only going off of whats been reported here. Lots of CRD owners do not report on this forum.
But that still doesnt answer the question or why it happens.
Was it a bad production run or something else?

In any case, engine parts are expensive and hard to find here in the US. So any effort to prevent potential engine failure is a benifit.


If you ask me too , the valve failures are within of normal range of failure rates so what is this post all about then ??

why is this post a sticky ??

Its a sticky so that other folks who may have had valve failure can easily find it and add their info without having to start a new thread.

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intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:49 pm 
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a sticky for 3 persons with that kind of opening :

A disturbing trend is starting to take shape, and I am looking to gather information from anyone that has experienced a valve failure. There is a potential that *every* CRD might have a major design flaw, and be a ticking time bomb. As the miles start to rack up, the risk increases.


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:15 pm 
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I started a similar thread, not a sticky, asking those who had a cracked head to post the date code off their head.
Only got three respondants.
I guess that was a waste of time :roll:

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
2.5 inch lift, 255-75-17 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Sorry i hadn't posted this sooner/ happened almost 2 years ago
CRD Year: 2006 #1
Mileage at failure: 140,000
Mileage with functional EGR: 100,000
/Weeks stage 2
Most common driving/ City-Frwy-
Do you have an Exhaust Temp gauge: no
Any issues with overheating in the recent history before your failure? Yes before changing head, hose broke & overheated, warped head
ARP studs? Yes
Replacement rockers? no
Time / mileage between engine work and valve failure? 4,000 miles after timing belt change, new head (ID parts remanf.)
Which cylinder failed? #4
How many valves, and which ones broke? #4 Exhaust Valve/ rear one
Broke at stem/ wedged in piston
had been running fantastic for 4000mi/ Exited freeway after 150miles at 75mph/ Stopped at light, took off accelerating up mild grade, crested the top and it just died like no fuel. Cranked but would not start. No noises. Valve in piston so hard couldn't get it out wth a hammer and chisel.

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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:09 am 
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Wow, this is the first one I have heard of that was a fully replaced head that has failed. Did you report this to IDparts? I'm sure that they would want to know!


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:39 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
I started a similar thread, not a sticky, asking those who had a cracked head to post the date code off their head.
Only got three respondants.
I guess that was a waste of time :roll:



No, it was not a waste of time... it is just that very few people have actually had cracked cylinder heads.

Did you crack your cylinder head AFTER modifying your cooling system in an effort to raise the CRD engine operating temperatures? I recall - perhaps incorrectly - that you were having overheat situations as well after your cooling system was modified.


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2017 6:29 pm 
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alright so far we see one new -reman head valve that lived 4000mi that's short living , but why ? EGR did it again ,,, i don't think so .


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:02 pm 
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well ok nobody knows why cylinder 4 gets so hot and melt exhaust valve in this case we have to wait , so hey it is still a mystery .


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 9:39 pm 
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I'm no metallurgist, but after exhaust valves have cycled many thousands of times becoming cherry red during normal operation and then cooling off after engine shutdown, the stems can become very brittle and can eventually just break! It is a phenomenon called Hydrogen Embrittlement and it happens.... :roll:
Air cooled VW engines were notorious for breaking the No. 3 exhaust valve! (it got the least amount of cooling air so the exhaust valve ran at a higher temperature)

See this article for more reading on Hydrogen Embrittlement:> http://www.heat-treat-doctor.com/docume ... lement.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:03 pm 
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,ww no doubt in your expertise , my teacher was old ww2 veteran and exhaust valve always had extra clearance , lol but this one with hydraulic lifter , my opinion i don't know i can't tell it my be too tight , that can make it HOT . by the way old boys are gone so we are LOST


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Thanks Rankom,
Think about this: an exhaust valve slamming shut against the valve seat while being exposed to 900 to 1300 degrees F exhaust gases passing over it and the stem continuously all the time while being under the added tension of the valve spring pulling on it while the stem is glowing cherry red from the heat exposure.
Over cycles, time, and age, even some of best metal can become brittle and the valve stem actually stretches a few thousandths of an inch and some metal will actually be worn away from the abrasion action of the exhaust gases passing around the stem.
All of these influences will actually make the valve stem decrease in diameter a few ten thousandths of an inch over time in which along with the embrittlement issue weakens the valve stem which at some point can allow it to just simply give up and snap (break)... :dead:

Valve metal quality is utmost and is everything when it comes to valve longevity!!! :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:42 pm 
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Metal quality is certainly a key concern. Hopefully we will have the results soon. As far as the hydrogen embrittlement or that "cooling air" passing over the exhaust valve - the exhaust valves ONLY see hot exhaust air. As long as the metal is capable of much higher temperature specs than the exhaust air, whether or not it turns cherry red should be irrelevant - it should remain within the elastic range and not be subject to failure.

The testing should show any of this though, or certainly inform our discussions and decision process.


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:13 pm 
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To be clear, hydrogen imbrittlement is a chemical reaction between hydrogen gas and any metals it comes into contact with nearby. The hydrogen gas steals ions from the metal and weakens it chemically resulting in a very brittle material. This typically occurs after parts have been anodized, zinc plated or other surface coatings since the metals are etched in acids which produce hydrogen gas. That is why the post-cleaning and PH-Balancing of metals is critical when chemical surface coatings are used.

There are metals designed to withstand an essentially infinite number of heating and cooling cycles within their operating range. Our valves are not one of them. These materials are used in jet engines and gas turbines and include metals like Inconel, Waspalloy, Hastalloy, etc. While it does seem like we've had more than an acceptable number of valve failures, none of them are meant to last forever. They will certainly fatigue from numerous thermal cycles over time and fail, but one would expect that to be many many more miles than most people here have put on their engines.

I would really like to see the results of an analysis on the collection of failed valves so we have some data to make decisions, not just assumptions.

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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:26 pm 
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And you are not alone in wanting that data - The moment I have it, so will everyone else.

From what I understand at the moment, the exhaust valves *should be* made from the factory with Inconel, and while Manley couldn't tell me what specific alloy (not that I expected them to be able to)... They had a reasonable expectation that the exhaust should have had an alloy of Inconel that was capable of 1200 DegF or so.

Based on my mouth-of-the-turbo pyrometer readings of 850 at steady-state highway speeds... I seriously doubt that the exhaust temps could drop 350-400 degrees in 5 inches of travel while within the exhaust manifold, so I don't think the actual cylinder temps would be much higher than what I read. Maybe 50 degrees or so more is reasonable? So that means when the majority of CRDs are just running around doing daily driving, they are ~900-1000 or so cylinder temps without EGR. Inconel shouldn't fail at those temperatures.


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:59 pm 
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geordi wrote:
From what I understand at the moment, the exhaust valves *should be* made from the factory with Inconel, and while Manley couldn't tell me what specific alloy (not that I expected them to be able to)... They had a reasonable expectation that the exhaust should have had an alloy of Inconel that was capable of 1200 DegF or so.


Inconel alloys melt between 1390 and 1425 degrees Celsius or 2540 to 2600 degrees Fahrenheit.

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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Not sure about the CRD engine, but I do have a pyro gauge on my Dodge Cummins pre turbo right after the exhaust gases exit the head and when pulling a load, the pyro can hit 1300 degrees if I push it too hard on long hills with the box turned up. So I would certainly imagine the exhaust valves are subjected to a higher temperature than what enters the turbo?

Again, the heat cycles, age, valve stem abrasion, and valve metallurgy all are important factors that can play into valve failure... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:53 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Again, the heat cycles, age, valve stem abrasion, and valve metallurgy all are important factors that can play into valve failure... :roll:


I agree - however stem wear can be excluded at least from the failures that I have had access to, as they were all in the middle of the alloy section. Heat cycling or momentary heating are the only reasonable factors when nothing other than hot gas passes over them.

As for the temperature ranges of Inconel - Wowza. I've seen 1200 (momentarily) out of the pyrometer on the Jeep when stomping on it from a dead stop (launched start, 0-80mph WOT)... But that is momentary and the temps come right back down. But that is still HALF of the melting temp. If these ARE made from inconel and not from swizzle sticks and chewing gum... They shouldn't EVER have failed like they have!


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 Post subject: Re: Valve failure research thread - We need your data!
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:02 am 
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geordi wrote:
WWDiesel wrote:
Again, the heat cycles, age, valve stem abrasion, and valve metallurgy all are important factors that can play into valve failure... :roll:


I agree - however stem wear can be excluded at least from the failures that I have had access to, as they were all in the middle of the alloy section. Heat cycling or momentary heating are the only reasonable factors when nothing other than hot gas passes over them.

As for the temperature ranges of Inconel - Wowza. I've seen 1200 (momentarily) out of the pyrometer on the Jeep when stomping on it from a dead stop (launched start, 0-80mph WOT)... But that is momentary and the temps come right back down. But that is still HALF of the melting temp. If these ARE made from inconel and not from swizzle sticks and chewing gum... They shouldn't EVER have failed like they have!

Well something is certainly making the stems become brittle with age and snap off!!! :roll:
If you want to rule out abrasion, then heat cycling and / or hydrogen embrittlement, or metallurgy, or a combination of all three are the culprit... :roll: :grim:

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