Lost power and hammering sound, suspect rockers, help!

Formula233 · **Joined:** Thu May 26, 2016 4:54 pm **Posts:** 26

Hi folks, first off, thanks for all the great information and answered questions on this forum, what a resource!

I bought a 2006 CRD with 140,000 miles about 2 months ago, and have loved it. Yesterday I was driving on the freeway about 75 and suddenly felt like the engine lost a couple cylinders, it started shaking, I heard a hammering sound, and though the engine kept running I had almost no power. I pulled over, shut it off, started it again, it started but same symptoms. I had the poor thing towed home. From what I've read on this forum, I suspect the timing went out and the cylinders hit the valves, breaking the rockers. Before I try to tear into it I'd like some advice about how to confirm this, or any other ideas about what might have happened...

A little back story... The previous owner told me he had the timing belt changed on schedule, I believed him but have no way to verify. It has a couple codes, EGR valve and glow plug controller, but runs fine, sometimes chugs a bit. I had meant to get the EGR and intake cleaned but the mechanic canceled my appointment before a big trip and I didn't have time to do it myself. About 3 weeks ago I towed a 5500 lb load about 800 miles in 2 days. :JEEPIN:

A bit over the limit but it didn't seem to mind... I babied it, drove about 60 most of the time, never put it to the floor. I did have to pull over once in the mountains of Vermont and let it cool down, it was starting to overheat. It made the trip without incident, but it has seemed to smoke a bit lately.

One post I found on here suggested that if the timing belt slips a tooth, it will smoke, two teeth and something like what just happened to me will happen. This seems like the most likely scenario to me.

Thoughts and advice appreciated!

jws84_02 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:27 am

A good way to know if it's rockers is to take your cac hose off and check for back pressure coming out the intake. How long was the egr active?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:40 am

Welcome to the forum, sorry your first post is of this nature!!!
Bad noises means something bad has happened! You will have to remove the timing belt cover and put the motor in the timing position (all timing pins installed). At this point you are going to have to remove the intake / valve cover and inspect the rockers and valve springs to determine for sure what has happened... Hopefully you slipped a tooth or two on the timing belt and have lost a rocker or two. Hope it is not a dropped valve which gets way more serious! Once you get the valve cover off you should be able to tell what has happened? Broken rockers are easy to spot; if a valve stem/valve spring(s) is sticking why up higher than the others, then you have dropped a valve.
While you have the intake/valve cover off, I would strongly suggest installing head studs in place of the head bolts, especially since you have already had some heat issues. The studs will prevent a possible future leaking head gasket! :roll:

Good luck and keep list posted as to what you find...

You do not list your location, but there are several members on this forum who can perform a teardown / inspection and then perform the repairs as needed..
Geordi is one of them, he goes all over the country, Rixram another in the New England area. PM or email one of them if you need their services!
Add your location to your signature, it helps others to know where you are located... :wink:

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:18 pm

You rang?

Thanks for the kind words wwdiesel! The good news is as of the moment, I don't think it is a dropped valve. Most of the time I've heard about that, they go kaput and don't keep running. I'm inclined to agree with the initial assessment, it does sound like a slipped belt or an outright botched job - especially if it was covered in paint marks, indicating a "mark and pray" job.

The labor overlaps, so I would definitely do the studs, as well as the intake elbow kit and the metal glow plugs. Since you can't be certain the belt was done, a full timing kit and water pump is not the worst idea either. You have to replace at least the belt anyway, shouldn't re-use it.

Now... If you can spare a few days, you may want to wait a little for all this, because I might have a solution to the valve failure issue. I'm not ready to declare victory yet, but I am currently on the way to a very promising lead. The labor is only a bit more, and then you are at the point of replacing the valves which to date have destroyed at least a dozen engines, all very without warning. No sense in doing all this work and potentially losing the engine soon after. I should know a lot more early next week.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Formula233 · **Joined:** Thu May 26, 2016 4:54 pm **Posts:** 26

Thanks folks!

Ok, so looks like my worst suspicions confirmed... good suggestions for repair.

Quote:

You do not list your location, but there are several members on this forum who can perform a teardown / inspection and then perform the repairs as needed..

I am in Halifax, Nova Scotia... I doubt there is anyone close but the idea o having someone who is familiar with these things do the work is great if anyone knows anyone!

Quote:

How long was the egr active?

I don't know, the previous owner never had the codes read. It has been on since I got it, 2 months and 2000 miles ago.

Another question, is it possible that my long heavy haul had anything to do with this failure?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:45 pm

Formula233 wrote:

Thanks folks!

Ok, so looks like my worst suspicions confirmed... good suggestions for repair.

Quote:

You do not list your location, but there are several members on this forum who can perform a teardown / inspection and then perform the repairs as needed..

I am in Halifax, Nova Scotia... I doubt there is anyone close but the idea o having someone who is familiar with these things do the work is great if anyone knows anyone!

Quote:

How long was the egr active?

I don't know, the previous owner never had the codes read. It has been on since I got it, 2 months and 2000 miles ago.

Another question, is it possible that my long heavy haul had anything to do with this failure?

It is possible that high heat loading could have pushed it over the edge???

Contact geordi (PM), he travels to perform repairs! :wink:

I hear Nova Scotia is real nice this time of year and he probably would love to get out of the hot heat of Florida... :ROTFL:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:50 pm

Quote:

Another question, is it possible that my long heavy haul had anything to do with this failure

Probably not.
If it is a timing belt problem, it could have happened at any speed, any RPM, at any time.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:37 pm

Quote:

Another question, is it possible that my long heavy haul had anything to do with this failure

If the timing belt failed due to lack of service at proper interval, it certainly could have caused broken rockers.
What oil has been used in the motor and what weight?
The wrong type and / or weight of oil in a high heat loading of the motor (towing) could cause some worn borderline rocker arms to fail in a motor with 140k miles along with an EGR in service for the whole time, a very bad combination!!! :grim:

Formula233 · **Joined:** Thu May 26, 2016 4:54 pm **Posts:** 26

Quote:

What oil has been used in the motor and what weight?

Hm, to be honest I don't know the weight of oil offhand, which is silly because I have topped it up... I'm sure I just referred to the manual.

Quote:

motor with 140k miles along with an EGR in service for the whole time, a very bad combination!!! :grim:

Is there a way to tell if the EGR is stuck open or closed? All I have is the engine code. I was also wondering if unplugging the MAF sensor will have any effect if the EGR is stuck?

So if the timing went out, pistons hit the valves, rockers broke... Is there any suspicion of damage to the pistons? Or is the repair just a top end rebuild, with no inspection or repair to the pistons?

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:34 pm

If the EGR is stuck open, you should have nearly constant smoke. Especially while under acceleration. Because the computer does not know that you are leaking boost, and is fueling as if you have all of the boost that the computer is expecting. Unplugging the mass airflow sensor will result in a code, obviously for the mass airflow sensor, and will also have the results of keeping the EGR from functioning. However it will not do anything if the valve is actually failed and is stuck.

As far as the timing job being botched and the rockers being broken, this is actually the designed failure mode for the engine. The whole point is to not damage either the pistons or the valves. I have not seen anyone with one of these that has had a failed timing job that has caused more damage than just the rockers. Thankfully, this is one particular design that actually functions the way it is supposed to.

That does not necessarily preclude damage to the valves from poor metallurgy, however there is really no way that I know of yet to inspect for that in place. In all likelihood, the only answer for that question will be out right replacement of the valves.

Formula233 · **Joined:** Thu May 26, 2016 4:54 pm **Posts:** 26

Further developments...

I started the Jeep today to take a video. It ran for less than ten seconds, gave a little chirp and stopped with a shudder. I started it again, same thing. :cry:

Does this mean that it is more than just rockers?

If it dropped valves and munched cylinders like the gruesome pics Geordi has posted, is it worth fixing or just finding a new engine? Any sources for one?

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:48 pm

Formula233 wrote:

is it worth fixing

That depends on a couple of variables

you just bought it 2 months ago - are you ready to spend more money on it?

can you do the work? (paying a shop $100/hour to learn gets expensive fast)

are you close to Geordi? or Sir_Sam? or GDE?

there probably aren't a dozen shops in the country that can deal with the diesel

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:04 pm

First thing to do is figure out what is wrong with it! YOU SHOULD NOT KEEP TRYING TO RUN IT! You may be causing more & more damage every time you start it!!!! :banghead:

1. Pull timing belt cover off and inspect timing belt condition and tightness.
2. Pull intake/valve/cam cover and inspect rockers for any damage and see if any valve stems are sticking up much higher than the others.
Everything hinges on these two items as to what the next cost effective move would be... :roll:

If you cannot perform the work yourself, then it may be time to call in the traveling Jeep CRD mechanic? :JEEPIN:

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:21 am

He is in Nova Scotia - About as far from everything as can be, but I'm sure it is pretty up there!

Running the engine any more is probably not going to do any more damage than has already happened. Unfortunately, if the underside of the head has been lunched, then in all likelihood so has the top of that piston. Valve failures tend to do that.

If it is trashed rockers, they are already trashed, that isn't going to get substantially worse off either, and we are already planning to replace all of them if any are replaced.

I managed to hear about 4 revolutions of the engine before it stopped, not even close to 10 seconds. The fact that it stops on its own doesn't thrill me, and hopefully he will be able to tear down the top to at least have a look. Then he can send pictures and we can go from there.

We don't know a lot yet, but what we have learned is kinda dark and foreboding.

Formula233 · **Joined:** Thu May 26, 2016 4:54 pm **Posts:** 26

I have a bit of an update and some new questions...

I took it apart down to the timing belt, and then ran out of time and had to go back to NY for a few days. I ordered all the parts for a rocker job and took it to a local mechanic, he is a diesel guy and seemed very competent. Went right out and read about the Jeep CRD and ordered the timing tools, which I took as a good sign.

He says the belt looks fine and he inserted a drill bit into one of the locater holes and looked at the other ones, and he says they are lined up and it is in time. Now he wants to put everything back together so he can try to start it and see what it does. As Geordi said, last time I ran it it didn't run very long and sounded pretty awful.

What is it likely to be if it is not out of time, and what else can be done to diagnose it at this point? If it is likely to be dropped valves, should I even go any further with this motor or just get a new one?

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:46 pm

Need a tiny medical borescope to explore the innnards but those scopes are not cheap.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:58 pm

You can't "look" at the locator holes and see anything, you have to actually use the pins to know if they are right. Ditto for just "looking" at the belt, that means less than nothing.

The belt might be fine, and sure, it could still be in time. All that means is that the problem has not been found yet. Putting it back together is a waste of energy, what does he expect to find when you brought it to him with mechanical noises and stalling? Mechanical noises. They don't fix themselves.

The problem is, most of these mechanics are not expecting to discover a vehicle dropping valves because it doesn't happen anymore. Not to unmodified stock mass produced engines. The materials have been designed better than that, and usually something else fails out or the vehicle just rusts. So they aren't thinking about the possibilities. They also are not familiar with how this engine is laid out where the rockers are sacrificial if the timing gets messed up. Your engine STILL could have a broken rocker or several... But unfortunately this discovery moves you closer to the point of possibly having a dropped valve.

He needs to continue pulling it apart, not put it back together. Actually - with the timing belt installed and in-time, the next thing that might be informative is to remove all the glow plugs and do a compression test. With the plugs out and spinning the engine with the starter, the test should result in the same number with a reasonable range across all 4 cylinders. Any cylinder that is massively different (usually lower) will locate the failure. Then you still need to do the disassembly, but he might be more inclined after he proves to himself that there is a problem to be found.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:33 pm

Listen to what everyone is telling you, they are trying to help you from making a mistake!!!!
At this point you have no other options of discovery. Pull intake/valve/cam cover and inspect rockers for any damage and see if any valve stems are sticking up higher than any of the others that could possibly indicate a broken valve.... :juggle:

Putting it back together at this point with a mechanical noise or knock without finding out what the root cause is would be a waste of time. :banghead:

Formula233 · **Joined:** Thu May 26, 2016 4:54 pm **Posts:** 26

Hm, I am sympathetic to all that, Geordi...

I had this chat with him, but he wants to put it back together and try it, so I let him. Mechanics want to do things their way and I'm understanding of that, I'm a craftsman too. He said he had turned it over by hand a lot and said he can't feel or hear anything that suggested internal damage. So they put it back together and started it again, it ran but was rough, shaking, lots of black smoke. They cleared the codes and it came up with two new ones, cylinder 4 misfire and crankshaft position sensor. The scanner said the crank and cams were in time, he thinks the crank sensor code was probably triggered by the shaking. They tested the injectors and they are good, the fuel pressure is good, and the turbo boost is good. He says the next thing to do is test compression, but they do not have the tools to do that! It never occurred to me that they would not be able to do that. They suggested I take it to the dealer.

I am loathe to pay another $100 to have it towed somewhere where the labor rate is $110/hr. How expensive or hard to obtain is a compression tester for this engine?

Or should I just tell them to take the darn thing apart? What else could it be at this point? Unfortunately the timing kit they ordered wont be here until August 3, its impossible to get stuff shipped here.

Formula233 · **Joined:** Thu May 26, 2016 4:54 pm **Posts:** 26

The mechanic also says that he "commanded" the injectors on and off one at a time while it was running, and he could hear a difference in the engine for each one. Thats how he tested the injectors. But that also seems to suggest that it is firing on all cylinders... if #4 was not firing due to a dropped valve or broken rocker, then turning off the #4 injector wouldn't make any difference, right?

Lost power and hammering sound, suspect rockers, help!

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