Battery not charging, Alternator, ETC?

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

The battery which was new 2 years ago is not holding its charge.

I suspect a faulty Alternator as I only have 8v on the battery terminals whilst it is running.

The car now will not start as there is not enough charge in the battery to turn it over.

On the dash 2 warning lights have come on:-
Battery warning light
and another light (which is not in the manual) that has 2 lines either side of a zigzag line like a lightning sign which I presume is the Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) light.

Is this a new alternator or could it be something else?

peteyz24 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:36 am

If you only have 8 volts while running, then it sure sounds like a faulty alternator to me.

Billwill · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:13 am

reeflodge wrote:

The battery which was new 2 years ago is not holding its charge.

I suspect a faulty Alternator as I only have 8v on the battery terminals whilst it is running.

The car now will not start as there is not enough charge in the battery to turn it over.

On the dash 2 warning lights have come on:-
Battery warning light
and another light (which is not in the manual) that has 2 lines either side of a zigzag line like a lightning sign which I presume is the Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) light.

Is this a new alternator or could it be something else?

What year is your Jeep?

There are differences between 2005/2006 CRD as regards the operation of the alternator charging.

One thing that is common though is that there is a "Fusable Link" inside the thick wire that goes from the alternator to the Positive terminal of the battery. This is a form of fuse that will blow if this wire shorts out or if someone has connected the battery the wrong way around.

So check that this lead is not open circuit...if you measure some voltage on the battery Positive Terminal at power OFF...even if only 8 volts...that voltage should also reflect back at the alternator on the other side of this thick lead.

Or else disconnect this lead and measure continuity from end to end with the Multi meter set to Ohms.

Also check the battery connections are clean and tight, the negative lead going from battery terminal to chassis is clean and tight both ends, the grounding strap connecting the engine to the chassis is clean and tight both ends.

Check that the small connector on the alternator is firmly plugged in.
Have the battery tested and have the alternator tested although most shops do not know how to do this properly on the KJ alternators.

Check that the Serpentine Belt is not too loose or is jumping about.

Could be the Decoupler Pulley on the Alternator is shot...this is a one-way clutch that runs freely in one direction and locks in the other direction. The standard decoupler is a dry metal spring that tends to show a red rust colored "dust" on the plastic front of the Decoupler before it packs up. There are lots of Search Hits on this Decoupler on how to replace it....greased and sealed "Litens" clutch is better. You need special tools to remove/replace the decoupler but there are posts on how to make up your own tools.

ETC light and other faults are probably caused by low battery voltage...ECM/TCM/BCM need around 8 volts to start working properly.

Get back to me please on the year that your CRD is so I can supply some more advise. :wink:

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Thanks
Its a Jeep 2.8 CRD Liberty (Cherokee in the UK) Limited Edition and was first registered in Nov 2005.

Here are my findings

I do have continuity from the battery to the end of the Alternator lead.

Battery connections are all tight

Serpentine belt is fine

When the engine is off the battery has 11.7 volts
When it is running it drops down to 8.5

I have 7.6 volts from the Battery Neg terminal to the Pos on the Alternator and it drops continuously

The alternator Decouple pulley will only turn one way so I dont think it is that
The alternator is a Denso P/N 56044672AB

The jeep will not start without a Jump start from another vehicle and then it will only run for around 10 minutes before it cuts out!

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:28 am

reeflodge wrote:

The battery which was new 2 years ago is not holding its charge.
Is this a new alternator or could it be something else?

Have you had the battery load tested? If not, charge it up with a battery charger to full charge and then have it load tested. Based on what you posted I believe you have a bad battery even though it is only two years old. They can and do go bad, even new ones; seen this many times before! Your battery may have developed an internal problem and while the voltage is ok in no load condition, it cannot maintain correct voltage when load is applied.... :wink:

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Thanks

So are you saying that although the output coming from the Alternator when the engine is running is not 12v it could still be the Battery?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:44 pm

reeflodge wrote:

ThanksSo are you saying that although the output coming from the Alternator when the engine is running is not 12v it could still be the Battery?

The alternator should put out 13.5 to 14.5 volts under normal conditions when charging a battery. But the alternator output on these vehicles are totally controlled by the OBC and if the voltage is very low supplying the OBC it may in turn affect the ability of the control circuit to properly excite the field in the alternator and induce the proper voltage output... I will say that I am not sure in this area and there may be some others on this forum who are more familiar than me as to how low voltage can affect this computer controlled alternator... :roll:

Billwill · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:31 am

The 2005 CRD gets its field coil voltage via the Front Control Module (FCM) also known as a "Gateway Module" which is a small black module located inside the engine bay, in front and below the battery, on the left fender. At least this is how it is on the USA LHD models...I will check the location for RHD models presently. Edit: RHD the same as LHD.

This FCM because of its location is known to have its connector pick up a lot of water, mud, snow, salt etc. so the contacts can get very corroded. Have a look for this FCM connector for corrosion and trace the Brown/Dark Green wire from its pin #1 to the small connector on the Alternator for continuity and for no short to ground with both ends disconnected. This wire goes through a connector C114 in the process.....I will look for its location! Edit to add: not sure if this Brown/Dark Green wire does go through connector C114 behind the battery...the Wiring Diagrams contradict themselves very often! :shock:

The Theory of Operation as regards charging on these CRDs is also very vague and often incorrect...the gas models get their field coil charge rate adjusted by the PCM. The CRDs up to the Export 2004 got their field coils adjusted by the ECM...same as the PCM operation ie. there is no Regulator built inside the Alternator....the PCM or ECM changes the current going through the field coil by switching one side of the coil in pulses.

In 2005/2006 they made changes to how the charging is done on the CRDs.

I have had discussions on this forum with Keith from GDE but cannot at this stage find these posts but according to Keith:

One of these 2005 or 2006 CRDs does not have a built in regulator in the Alternator but has the voltage regulated by the ECM as per usual. One of these 2005 or 2006 CRDs does indeed have a built in voltage regulator inside the Alternator and only gets a "wake up call" from the ECM to tell it to start regulating.

I have forgotten which alternator is in which model CRD...will try to find these posts with Keith.

The 2005 CRD does definitely make use of this Gateway Module for the first time though which they then dropped for the 2006 CRD :shock:

Theory of Operations and Wiring Diagrams for both models contradict themselves and have many omissions and errors...I do not have access to 2005/2006 CRDs so cannot test out any theories. :cry:

Check the Gateway Module and wiring as above otherwise I would replace the alternator with coupling...get the correct 2005 Alternator or get the battery and alternator tested first.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:57 am

I'm pretty sure that every 2005/2006 North American CRD model has a alternator with a built in voltage regulator and the ECM has no control over charging voltage.
That's how mine is.
Earlier this year, I was able to repair my alternator by replacing its regulator and brushes. It was really easy to do.

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

I recharged the battery last night and it started first turn, then I read the voltage coming from the Alternator and its now reading 11.7v.

So is it my Battery or Alternator?

Going to do a Battery Load test when I get home from work to see if its over 9.6 when cranking, anything below 9.6v indicates a bad battery doesn't it?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:36 am

Wait at least one hour after charging a battery to perform a battery load test! This lets everything equalize across the battery...
Determine the required load test amps by finding the CCA from the battery label and divide that number in half (1/2 CCA). The discharge rate is one half of the battery’s cold cranking rating. Apply the load test to the battery for 15 seconds. The battery’s voltage must remain above 9.6 volts at 70 F.
If the voltage drops below 9.5 volts during the load test, the battery does not have enough available capacity and should be replaced!
Voltage can be relative to battery electrolyte and / or case temperature, the lower the temperature, the voltage and time span can be affected... :roll:

Billwill · **Posted:** Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:51 am

flash7210 wrote:

I'm pretty sure that every 2005/2006 North American CRD model has a alternator with a built in voltage regulator and the ECM has no control over charging voltage.
That's how mine is.
Earlier this year, I was able to repair my alternator by replacing its regulator and brushes. It was really easy to do.

Yeah I will take your word for it although the Service Manuals say otherwise....Chrysler too lazy to update or correct their documentation.! I agree that maybe a good cleanup of the field commutator ring and some new brushes could resolve the issue and if the alternator does have a built in regulator then any good Auto Electrician should be able to test the Alternator.

Could someone in the USA maybe contact Keith from GDE and get his take on this voltage regulation method? :wink:

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

I think the original problem is pointing more to a bad Battery.
As soon as I have fully charged the Battery and tested it I will let you know.

Its amazing that a bad battery can cause so many problems ie Alternator false reading, ETC failure which is causing the car to stall.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:01 pm

reeflodge wrote:

I think the original problem is pointing more to a bad Battery.
As soon as I have fully charged the Battery and tested it I will let you know.

Its amazing that a bad battery can cause so many problems ie Alternator false reading, ETC failure which is causing the car to stall.

Low voltage can make all kinds of electrical gremlins surface!!! :roll:

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

OK

I have fully charged my battery to 12.4v and left for 1 hour, then attached a fluke meter with min/max function.
Turned the Jeep over and let run for 10 seconds then turnrd off.
Results were Min 8.75v, Max 11.85v.

Alternator current was running the same as what the Battery was at.

The battery is a 50ah 700CCA Optima Red Top.

Has my Battery had it and do you think it is the cause of my original problems (ETC & Battery warning lights on and battery flat)?

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:17 am

That battery is dead. While cranking, it should stay close to 12v.

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

New battery it is then.

Thank you everyone for your advice and help.

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Oh no!

Fitted new £150 Optima Battery (like for like) and now its gone flat and the same two ETC and Battery lights have come back on!

I don't suppose I can take the battery back for a refund and it now looks as though I need to buy a Alternator (I will test it first when I get home from work)!

Or could it be something else?

This is beginning to be an expensive fix!

Could it be the Voltage Regulator (P/N ARG150) inside the Denso 104210-4241 Alternator?
If it is, is it possible to test this Regulator with a Multimeter before I fork out £25 for a replacement one?

Does it come with the brushes or do I need to buy them seperatly?

Billwill · **Posted:** Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:31 am

reeflodge wrote:

Oh no!

Fitted new £150 Optima Battery (like for like) and now its gone flat and the same two ETC and Battery lights have come back on!

I don't suppose I can take the battery back for a refund and it now looks as though I need to buy a Alternator (I will test it first when I get home from work)!

Or could it be something else?

This is beginning to be an expensive fix!

Could it be the Voltage Regulator (P/N ARG150) inside the Denso 104210-4241 Alternator?
If it is, is it possible to test this Regulator with a Multimeter before I fork out £25 for a replacement one?

Does it come with the brushes or do I need to buy them seperatly?

Difficult to test a regulator is working without being able to feed it a varying DC voltage.

I would fork out for a new complete alternator with the decoupler pulley attached.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:29 am

You stated you had a Fluke Meter?
Connect the meter to + & - battery terminals and start engine and read DC voltage.
Should be between 13.5 - 14.5 volts right after starting engine. (note: may have to rev motor up just slightly)
Turn on headlamps and read voltage, should not drop below 12.5 volts, preferably voltage will stay above 13.0+ with all lights on.
If voltage stays below 12.5 volts on either of these tests, the alternator is not putting out the proper voltage and should be removed and tested by a quality repair facility or replaced with a new unit! :wink:

Problem could be the alternator itself, alternator drive pulley bad, or voltage regulator not working properly... :roll:

Battery not charging, Alternator, ETC?

Who is online