Battery not charging, Alternator, ETC?

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Yeah the voltage stays the same before start up and with engine running so I guess its a bad Alternator.

What I needed to know if there is a test I can do to see if its just the voltage regulator thats gone bad as thats a cheap fix

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:41 pm

reeflodge wrote:

Yeah the voltage stays the same before start up and with engine running so I guess its a bad Alternator.
What I needed to know if there is a test I can do to see if its just the voltage regulator thats gone bad as thats a cheap fix

Take alternator to a good alternator/starter shop and they can test alternator/voltage regulator and recommend course of action....
Otherwise, just buy a whole new unit and replace it! :wink:

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Billwill wrote:

The 2005 CRD gets its field coil voltage via the Front Control Module (FCM) also known as a "Gateway Module" which is a small black module located inside the engine bay, in front and below the battery, on the left fender. At least this is how it is on the USA LHD models...I will check the location for RHD models presently. Edit: RHD the same as LHD.
This FCM because of its location is known to have its connector pick up a lot of water, mud, snow, salt etc. so the contacts can get very corroded. Have a look for this FCM connector for corrosion and trace the Brown/Dark Green wire from its pin #1 to the small connector on the Alternator for continuity and for no short to ground with both ends disconnected. This wire goes through a connector C114 in the process.....I will look for its location! Edit to add: not sure if this Brown/Dark Green wire does go through connector C114 behind the battery...the Wiring Diagrams contradict themselves very often! :shock:

My jeep doesn't have the black FCM but it does have a flat silver one like this

The voltage on the battery does not get any higher when the Alternator is running it stays at around 11.5v!
Would the FCM cause this?

Billwill · **Posted:** Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:04 am

reeflodge wrote:

Billwill wrote:

The 2005 CRD gets its field coil voltage via the Front Control Module (FCM) also known as a "Gateway Module" which is a small black module located inside the engine bay, in front and below the battery, on the left fender. At least this is how it is on the USA LHD models...I will check the location for RHD models presently. Edit: RHD the same as LHD.
This FCM because of its location is known to have its connector pick up a lot of water, mud, snow, salt etc. so the contacts can get very corroded. Have a look for this FCM connector for corrosion and trace the Brown/Dark Green wire from its pin #1 to the small connector on the Alternator for continuity and for no short to ground with both ends disconnected. This wire goes through a connector C114 in the process (maybe!).....I will look for its location! Edit to add: not sure if this Brown/Dark Green wire does go through connector C114 behind the battery...the Wiring Diagrams contradict themselves very often! :shock:

My jeep doesn't have the black FCM but it does have a flat silver one like this

The voltage on the battery does not get any higher when the Alternator is running it stays at around 11.5v!
Would the FCM cause this?

Yes I presume that is the FCM...only the 2005 CRD has it out of all the KJ models...Parts Fiche picture looks nothing like that...perhaps someone here with a 2005 CRD can confirm if that is indeed the FCM?

The Field coil gets its signal on the Small connector on the Alternator....the Brown/Dark Green wire which comes from the FCM pin 14 via connector C114 pin 1...the wire stays Brown/Dark Green throughout its journey.

So you need to inspect the connectors on your FCM to see that they are clean and make good contact.

Disconnect the Plug with this Brown/dark Green wire from the FCM and likewise disconnect the small plug on the alternator...likewise with the Brown/Dark Green wire on it. So the wire should be floating ie. not going anywhere.

Using a Multimeter set to Ohms... check for continuity of this wire from end to end...should show only about 0 to 3 ohms if the wire is not broken or has a bad connection when going through connector C114.

Also check that this disconnected wire does not show any Ohms reading to chassis...make sure you are not holding the meter leads with your bare hands while doing this or you will read the resistance going through your body....Ohms reading should be very high ie. a few Mega Ohms... if not then you have a short or semi-short to chassis!

Try and get hold of Keith from Green Diesel Engineering and ask him what is supposed to happen on this Brown/Dark Green wire....the Service manuals are totally contradictory and useless in this area!

I am not sure if Keith said that on this 2005 CRD this wire is a "Wake Up " signal to tell the Regulator to start regulating...initially the regulator does not regulate at startup....takes strain off the starter motor. I believe he said that once you rev the engine to 2,000 RPM or after 20 seconds this Wake up Signal appears and tells the Regulator to start regulating......if what I have said here is correct....I need to know what this Wake Up signal is...does it briefly go to ground or permanently go to ground or does it have + 12 volts on it briefly or all the time?

Put your Meter on DC volts and measure what this wire is doing with respect to ground and with respect to +12 volts...maybe something happens sometime after starting the engine and reving it up?

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Is there supposed to just the 1 wire (green & Brown) coming from this connector on the Alternator?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:24 pm

reeflodge wrote:

Is there supposed to just the 1 wire (green & Brown) coming from this connector on the Alternator?

Actually two wires according to the FSM,
GENERATOR - 2 WAY CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 K125 16BR/DG GEN FIELD CONTROL (+)
2 Z932 18BK GROUND (-)

Best I can tell looking at the wiring diagram, it is a flash circuit to start the alternator to charging after the engine is at speed. It is according to the WD a (+) positive circuit which gets it signal through the front module and as Bill stated, only Jeep CRD's have this module. The BK (black) wire is a ground circuit that is connected to the PCM.
The charging system is turned on and off with the ignition switch. The system is on when the engine is running and the ASD relay is energized. When the ASD relay is on, voltage is supplied to the ASD relay sense circuit at the PCM. This voltage is connected through the PCM and supplied to one of the generator field terminals (Gen. Source +) at the back of the generator.
The amount of DC current produced by the generator is controlled by the EVR (field control) circuitry contained within the PCM. This circuitry is connected in series with the second rotor field terminal and ground.
Powertrain Control Module (PCM) according to the FSM:
PCM Outputs:
² Generator field driver (-)
² Generator field driver (+)

The front control module is simply a gateway communications module, it does not operate anything, it simply passes signals back and forth between components. The Generator circuit comes from pin number 14 K125 16BR/DG GEN FIELD CONTROL on the FCM.
So that means that the actual control voltage to flash the alternator after startup is coming from the PCM....

Quote:
From the FSM: The Front Control Module (FCM) (2) (Fig. 12) is located in the engine compartment below the Power Distribution Center (PDC). The FCM’s primary function is to define communications between electronic controllers and move data collected from the multiple controllers to the host controller for processing using Controller Area Network (CAN), Programmable Communication Interface (PCI) buss or J1850. The FCM does not contain any drivers, and therefore does not directly operate any vehicle components.

Billwill · **Posted:** Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:34 am

WWDiesel wrote:

reeflodge wrote:

Is there supposed to just the 1 wire (green & Brown) coming from this connector on the Alternator?

Actually two wires according to the FSM,
GENERATOR - 2 WAY CAV CIRCUIT FUNCTION
1 K125 16BR/DG GEN FIELD CONTROL (+)
2 Z932 18BK GROUND (-)

Best I can tell looking at the wiring diagram, it is a flash circuit to start the alternator to charging after the engine is at speed. It is according to the WD a (+) positive circuit which gets it signal through the front module and as Bill stated, only Jeep CRD's have this module. The BK (black) wire is a ground circuit that is connected to the PCM.
The charging system is turned on and off with the ignition switch. The system is on when the engine is running and the ASD relay is energized. When the ASD relay is on, voltage is supplied to the ASD relay sense circuit at the PCM. This voltage is connected through the PCM and supplied to one of the generator field terminals (Gen. Source +) at the back of the generator.
The amount of DC current produced by the generator is controlled by the EVR (field control) circuitry contained within the PCM. This circuitry is connected in series with the second rotor field terminal and ground.
Powertrain Control Module (PCM) according to the FSM:
PCM Outputs:
² Generator field driver (-)
² Generator field driver (+)

The front control module is simply a gateway communications module, it does not operate anything, it simply passes signals back and forth between components. The Generator circuit comes from pin number 14 K125 16BR/DG GEN FIELD CONTROL on the FCM.
So that means that the actual control voltage to flash the alternator after startup is coming from the PCM....

Quote:
From the FSM: The Front Control Module (FCM) (2) (Fig. 12) is located in the engine compartment below the Power Distribution Center (PDC). The FCM’s primary function is to define communications between electronic controllers and move data collected from the multiple controllers to the host controller for processing using Controller Area Network (CAN), Programmable Communication Interface (PCI) buss or J1850. The FCM does not contain any drivers, and therefore does not directly operate any vehicle components.

Nice information...your FSM is a lot better than my manuals I got here at Colorado4wheel.com....full of errors...shows only one wire..Brown/Dark Green on pin 2, pin 1 going nowhere....presumably to the alternator body. Brown/Dark Green wire going through connector C114 which I doubt as it seems to me C114 is for the Glow Plugs! Theory of Operations is for the previous models of the KJ from 2002 gas or diesel and for 2006 Gas or Diesel ie. that the voltage is regulated by the ECM/PCM...Chrysler did not update this manual for the different method that the 2005 CRD uses! My 2006 Wiring diagrams do however match your description of two wires on the small plug!

So the OP needs to check at startup that he is getting ground with reference to the positive terminal on the battery on pin 1 Black wire at the small plug on the alternator....if it exists... and is getting +12 volts with reference to the alternator body/chassis on pin 1 Brown/Dark green at the small plug at the alternator.

If these two pins at the alternator plug do not check out as above then the wires need to be traced back to the ECM to look for a break in the wire, a short to ground or a bad connection somewhere!

I am aware that the FCM does not have any drivers but the connector is a possible source of where these wires may pick up a bad connection as the wires pass through the FCM on their way to the alternator.

@WWDiesel,I think I disagree with where you state that the PCM controls the voltage through the field coil...this is a CRD which uses a ECM...not a PCM...and in theory this 2005 has a built in regulator or is it the 2006 CRD that has a built in regulator?...or do all KJs gas or CRD have their voltage regulated by the PCM/ECM?...this is why I would like Keith's input here as I am sure he stated that the 2005 CRD has a built in regulator but maybe it is the 2006 CRD that has the built in regulator or maybe both 2005 and 2006 have their voltage regulated by their PCM/ECM as per usual...I cannot find Keith's old posts on this matter. Flash7210 stated that as far as he knows USA 2005 and 2006 CRDs both have built in regulators which can be replaced.

@WWDiesel....do you know if this "flash" voltage is only a short burst to wake up the regulator or is the ground and the +12 volts there all the time while the engine is running? Or is this "flash" voltage a pulsed PWM +12 volts to vary the field coil current ie. the alternator does not have a built in regulator? Could you attach the correct relevant wiring diagrams (2005 CRD) up here for us please? :wink:

Thanks, Bill.

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Definately only the One Green/Brown wire coming from the Alternator 2 pin connector NO Black wire.

I have looked inside the Alternator and there IS a Denso voltage Regulator fitted to it the same as this one

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:55 am

Then based on what you posted, the FSM I am looking at is not correct for the Jeep CRD charging system.
I looked at both the 05 & 06 manuals and both say and show the same information. I presume the information wiring diagrams are for the gas versions and not the diesel?

Will require some more research and I will look at my Jeep CRD wiring and compare.... :roll:

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:51 pm

Earlier this year I repaired my alternator by replacing the regulator and brushes.
The problem with my alternator was not low or no charging, but a intermittent flickering/dimming of all my lights, indicating a regulator problem.

There are only two wires that connect to the alternator. The heavy gauge wire that ties into the battery 12+ cable and the small gauge wire that connects to the regulator.
All that small gauge wire does is power up the regulator so it can excite the field coil.
Once excited, you can disconnect that small wire and the alternator will still charge and regulate itself. Inside the regulator is a capacitor that keeps the regulator going.
I don't know how long that capacitor will hold its charge but I tested that alternator with that small wire disconnected and it made no difference in charging voltage.
When I installed the alternator with new regulator, I initially tested it without the small wire connected and the alternator was not charging.
I then connected the small wire and you could immediately hear the load on the engine change and the alternator began charging.
Also, there was no evidence that the alternator waited till a certain rpm to begin charging.

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

I am going to fit a new alternator tomorrow so if its still not charging I guess it will have something to do with that brown/green wire!

Billwill · **Posted:** Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:30 am

reeflodge wrote:

I am going to fit a new alternator tomorrow so if its still not charging I guess it will have something to do with that brown/green wire!

Why not take flash7210's experience.... remove the small plug and briefly touch +12 volts onto the pin #2 of the small connector on the alternator while engine is running...that should get the alternator going if it is not defective. If this works then the Brown/Dark Green wire is broken

If this does not work why not first get that Denso Voltage regulator and replace that? :wink:

Check the brushes while you are inside there....clean and making good contact on clean brass tracks.

While it is all apart you can test across the two brass tracks for continuity using your Ohmeter....should get some reading or the field coil is burnt out.

But yes...if after replacing complete alternator with the correct one for your 2005 CRD KJ...if it does not work then you will need to trace that Brown/Dark Green wire. :shock:

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Update

Good News
Checked the Brown/green cable at pin 14 and have continuity.
Fitted the new aftermarket Alternator and now charging.

Bad News
New aftermarket Alternator bearing very loud so sending it back!
Now the Temperature Gauge needle is not moving off from cold!
Whats caused that to happen?

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:32 pm

Check the wiring going across the motor behind the Alternator and especially the connection to the water temperature sensor on the outlet side of the thermostat and make sure you have not pulled a wire loose... :idea:

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Cant see any loose wires.

Does the Temp gauge have anything to do with the FCM because I pulled off that connector to check the wiring to my alternator?

Billwill · **Posted:** Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:51 am

reeflodge wrote:

Cant see any loose wires.

Does the Temp gauge have anything to do with the FCM because I pulled off that connector to check the wiring to my alternator?

Yes the temp Gauge does go through the FCM...check that connections are tight there....uses the White/Violet wire.
However this is a PCI line that is common to all the gauges and lots of other components so you would expect failure on the other gauges as well so that points more to the Temperature Sensor.

If you hold in the Odometer Trip Reset button while switching ON the ignition then all the cluster lights and gauges light up and move around....this will test if the gauges are working OK....this is not a diagnostic with error codes but a means to check all cluster lights and gauges are working.

You probably disturbed a wire somewhere with respect to the Temperature Sensor.....Engine Temperature Sensor has a Violet/Orange wire going direct to the ECM C1 pin 57 while the other side of the temp sensor is a Brown/Dark Green wire going to Sensor Ground at the ECM C1 Pin 65...this Brown/Dark Green wire splices off to various other areas and of course is the same color wire we have been tracing that goes to the small connector on the alternator and the other side to the FCM.
Normally a specific wire in a circuit has a specific number ie. the Brown/Dark Green wire for the coolant sensor ground is wire number K900 while the Brown/Dark Green wire going to the alternator small connector pin 2 is wire number K125 and are completely seperate although they are the same color!

I have never seen before the KJ using the same color wire for completely different circuits..either the wiring diagrams are wrong again or the 2005 CRD is unique. The point is that while you were working with wire number K125..Brown/Dark Green going to the alternator you may have disturbed wire number K900 Brown/Dark Green going from the Temp Sensor to the ECM C1 pin 65! :shock:

This wire from pin 2 on the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor should go down to ground from ECM C1 pin 65...it does not go through the FCM on its way to the ECM. Check this Brown/dark Green wire on the Temp sensor is going to ground and has continuity to ECM C1 pin 65....try add a ground to Pin 2 on the Engine Coolant Sensor if ground is not there! This same wire K900 also goes to the Fuel Temp Sensor,Transfer Case position sensor and then splices to another circuit..this time a Brown wire which goes to various places....these items are obviously working so they do have their ground but maybe your Engine Coolant Temp Sensor lost its ground somewhere!

They use Brown/Dark green wires all over the place in completely different areas eg. A/C Pressure Transducer....which goes through the FCM so it very possible that you disturbed the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor circuit while measuring the Brown/Green wire for your alternator problem.!

jeeplibertycrd · **Joined:** Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:09 pm **Posts:** 17

Ok I read few posts but obvious thing on these CRDs is clutch that spins on alternator goes bad as diesel pounds them. Order one $75 and have a alternator shop put one on. Fixed pully ends do not work ask me why I know this, yes it will get you running and in pinch but sooner you will need clutch on end for diesel serpentine to have little slack. Maybe you could drill two holes in end of the clutch missing center center shaft and put couple grade 8 screws in see if she starts up.

Billwill · **Posted:** Sat Aug 06, 2016 5:47 am

jeeplibertycrd wrote:

Ok I read few posts but obvious thing on these CRDs is clutch that spins on alternator goes bad as diesel pounds them. Order one $75 and have a alternator shop put one on. Fixed pully ends do not work ask me why I know this, yes it will get you running and in pinch but sooner you will need clutch on end for diesel serpentine to have little slack. Maybe you could drill two holes in end of the clutch missing center center shaft and put couple grade 8 screws in see if she starts up.

OP had a new alternator with the clutch decoupler fitted...faulty new alternator supplied though....noisy bearings but charging OK so a new alternator with decoupler fitted is on its way. :wink:

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Ok I have replaced the Voltage regulator (£30) and got a refund on the faulty new alternator and its all working Yahooo!
So far and hopefully no more its cost me £180 including a new battery.

I still cant find the problem with the Temp gauge not working, where and what do I need to check on this Liberty 2.8CRD
I cant see anything that might be obvious.

Are any of the sensors/connectors near the alternator, Battery or tension pulley that I may have knocked?
Is there a fuse or relay that might have blown because of connecting and disconnecting I have done?

reeflodge · **Joined:** Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:35 pm **Posts:** 101

Billwill wrote:

If you hold in the Odometer Trip Reset button while switching ON the ignition then all the cluster lights and gauges light up and move around....this will test if the gauges are working OK....this is not a diagnostic with error codes but a means to check all cluster lights and gauges are working. :

Hi
I done this and all the gauges including the Temp gauge moves.

Where is the Temp Sensor I cant find it?
Could it be a fuse?

Update......
Temp gauge now working after doing a battery disconnect reset!

Battery not charging, Alternator, ETC?

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