Etecno Glow Plugs defective?

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:53 am

I am in the process of reassembling my 2006 CRD engine. The head I'm installing is a brand new factory head. Not remanufactured. or reconditioned.
In pre-assembling the head as far as possible prior to installing it, I installed a brand new set of Etecno 7v glow plugs, and torqued them to 12.5 Nm per stock specs.

When I checked for continuity between the electrical connection and the head (ground) there was no continuity. I checked all four. No continuity. I removed one and checked it, and there was proper continuity. I reinstalled it to proper torque. No continuity. I removed all four. All four then show proper continuity. I recheck the torque spec (12.5 Nm) and reinstalled one. No continuity.

After a bit of head scratching, I noticed that the electrical supply terminal was moving around loose. I checked the ones that are not installed. All of them are tight. All of them have continuity. The installed one (loose one) does not... UNLESS I move the center electrical terminal sideways against the outer shell... THEN it has continuity.

What seems to be happening, is at the proper torque spec, the outer barrel between the threads and the seat (just behind the tip) compresses significantly, and the center power supply terminal and element, lose contact with the circuit ground.

So.. How bad is this problem? To find out, I connected an ohm meter from the head to the center electrical terminal and begin hanging weights from a box end wrench and calculating weights, radius, and torque conversions. At 2.5 Nm torque, the ohm meter number begins to dance and flutter. As weights are added it gets worse and worse, and continuity is completely severed by 4 Nm of torque.
I compared this result with an actual torque wrench, and it verified exactly the same result.

I then tried this same process with each of the four brand new Etecno glow plugs, and all, every one, produces near as I can measure, IDENTICAL results. This set was purchased 2 weeks ago from IDParts.com, so I'm dealing with a reputable supplier and they were delivered without damage in a shipment with many other things.

I'm wondering if anyone else out there has had a similar problem with these plugs or is this set part of a bad batch? I can understand ONE part out of a set being defective, but all four? and all four with an identical defect? It's either a whole bad batch from Italy, or something I'm doing wrong.

To check on that last possibility, I went back to the original head I removed. The engine was running, 147k miles, and started flawlessly when I started this project. I removed all 4 glow plugs without difficulty. #'s 1-3 were original Bosch 7v ceramic plugs with nylon-white insulator ring below the power terminal. #4 was Bosch 5v replacement metal gp with a red insulator ring. All 4 register proper continuity when removed. I reinstalled them and torqued them to 12.5 Nm. All 4 still have proper continuity. I removed all 4 and installed them in the brand new head. All 4 continue to register proper continuity when torqued to 12.5 Nm.

As far as I can tell this problem seems to be unique to the Etecno glow plugs I purchased from IDParts.com I think I really need to contact them about replacements, but I'm concerned that they may have a whole batch of bad plugs in inventory, and this project is already behind schedule.

Is there anyone out there than can think of anything that I've overlooked in making these plugs work?

Thanks

Ceearedeedriver · **Joined:** Fri May 06, 2016 8:44 pm **Posts:** 177

One thing you don't appear to have tried is installing the Etecno1 plugs in the original head. I don't expect a different outcome but you never know. There may be a slight difference or even flaw in that new head that the Etecno1 plugs are sensitive to but the Bosch plugs are OK with..

I'm sure IDParts will look after you on this one. Maybe if you outline the test you did they can do the same to validate the replacements before shipping.

It's interesting to see a mix of 7V and 5V plugs in that old head and they all check out OK. It confirms what others have reported that the 5V plugs can survive with the 7V tune unless, of course, it had been re-tuned for 5V and the ceramics were running below capacity.

It would be unfortunate to see a bad batch of Etecno1 plugs given the previous longevity and performance issues they've had.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:06 pm

You are correct, I had not tried that, but did this morning, and they behaved exactly the same way. The ground shell loosens away from the center power post and insulating ring, and with the power terminal loose, the circuit loses continuity.

I called IDParts this morning and got a RMA from them.

To save time and hopefully avoid others from a possible bad run of parts, I'm ordering a set from Sasquatch. I suppose it's equally possible they could also have the same issue, but hopefully not.

rankom · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:33 pm

well my problem with E_TECNOS 7 volts begun with 1st set i purchase in fall 2013, they burn out one by one in about few mounts , so i had to wait till they got updated version so far they didn't burn out , but we all know they they don't assist in cold start , you have to plugged in block heater . as for your GP problem been loose like that , you need to find out from supplier . this is one of those situation where is difficult to track down where and how they pass quality inspections before they ship them out , same as our intake and exhaust valve ,,, oh well they may be coming from outside of this universe ,

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:27 pm

With the things we've found in disassembling this supposedly all stock vehicle, the difference in the glow plugs didn't surprise me, but I did take note that even with the 5v plug combined with the original ceramic plugs, it worked just fine. Although I have no idea how long it's been that way. I also noted that all of the Bosch glow plugs regardless of voltage, measure 5-6 ohms resistance with no load. The dTecno1's are all around 7ohms.

I found from Carfax that the vehicle spent a few years as a dealership vehicle. Possibly a rental or a parts runner, as it accumulated a few thousand miles under their ownership, including an episode in which they took the car to auction, then bought their own car back from the auction. We have found evidence that there was some front end damage at some point, which resulted in a bent AC condenser / Trans-cooler unit, a radiator that has some mounting tabs broken, and the mounting frame for these same items that attaches to the inner fenders just behind the headlights was out of alignment fairly significantly. Also the plastic grille reinforcement frame into which the fog lights and headlights mount has missing mount points and some significant cracks that needed repair. I figure I can live with this as I intend to mount an ARB bull-bar bumper in the future and will mount fog lights there. The rest I can repair with plastic weld and reinforcements.

The failed turbo we removed is at very least the second one this vehicle has had, as it wasn't the original Garrett.

The turbo failed as a result of use of the wrong oil. Good oil, and probably expensive, but not designed for diesels, and definitely not turbo-diesels. once the turbo failed the oil proceeded to fill every passage from there thorough the intercooler, intake manifold, and was running from the end of the tailpipe accompanied by an unbelievable amount of smoke. Once I saw this I had him shut it down before it locked up. The amount of engine oil run through the combustion cycle may be one reason the original ceramic glow plugs came out so easily.

When removing the original head, I did note that one of the exhaust rockers in #4 was not stock. Slightly different in the roller area, and the valve retention clip was copper or brass coated rather than plain steel like all the others. No marks on the valves though, or pistons, but it makes me wonder if it was something related to the #4 glow plug being steel rather than original ceramic. I understand the original rockers were designed to break if anything impacts a valve.

Yeah, I got it pretty cheap, and it looks clean and tight, over, under, and inside out, but still haven't been able to see how it drives.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:58 pm

This set is on their way back to IDParts.
Sasquatch is out of stock at this time so I'm just going ahead with new ones from IDparts, as they have stock, and hoping the replacements don't have the same loosening / continuity problem.

cevans · **Joined:** Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:48 pm **Posts:** 278

Hey Gordano -

This whole thing is really a head scratcher for me. We've sold literally thousands and thousands of these. I've installed a few dozen sets myself. The four you received are from a manufacturing run of 500 that we just sold out of, and we haven't had any warranties at all with these set. (there was a batch two years ago that had issues, but we've provided replacements for anyone who had a failure)

I've never had one of these plugs lose continuity after being installed, and then regain continuity after being taken out. The torque on these plugs is really, really low. I can't see, physically speaking, how that amount of torque could cause warping, distortion etc of the internal electronics. In addition, the pressure from torque is completely limited to the outside of the plug, which is a one piece metal sheath. The threads and the seat are all part of this single sheath, so torquing the plugs has no effect on the inside electronics.

So, those are my initial thoughts but I am going to follow up as much as I can to get specific answers. I have your four plugs here and I will test resistance and continuity both inside and outside a cylinder head. The top terminals are not loose, but I wasn't clear if you reported them loose installed or not installed.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:20 pm

Glad you got them ok.
I definitely am sold on the product and am aware of their reputation. Also I couldn't find any other glow plugs with that low of torque requirement, but am using a very accurate digital torque wrench and proper setting as indicated.
I spent most of 12 hours trying to figure out what was going on with those, and / or what I was doing wrong. I hope you find what I did, because if you don't the mystery still remains. What's the deal with the loose center terminals when torqued? That issue is one that another has noted as well. It worries me that with the gap there is risk of contamination by oil/water/fuel/dust etc. I assume from their reputation that this situation is rare?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85001

cody.vandieren · **Posted:** Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:28 am

So i installed a set of Etecnos about a month ago. Did not do a continuity check.

My question is if anyone else experiences this failure without checking them with a meter the CEL should appear correct?

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:56 am

I believe that to be correct, as well as possibly a no / hard start condition depending on your environment.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:56 am

deleted duplicate post

cevans · **Joined:** Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:48 pm **Posts:** 278

Quote:

Also I couldn't find any other glow plugs with that low of torque requirement, but am using a very accurate digital torque wrench and proper setting as indicated.

Hm..that is strange - what were you looking at? All the diesels I work on all have very low torque values for glow plugs. TDIs are 11 ft-lbs and the new Mercedes 3.0L V6 is 9 ft/lbs too. Anything that has an aluminum cylinder head will have very low glow plug torque.

You can't use a ft/lb wrench for these - you need to use an in/lb wrench. I have a in/lb torque wrench specifically for glow plugs. Such low torque will be below the accurate range for a ft/lb wrench. (the factory manuals actually use in/lb or Nm for the torque specs, people on these forums have just translated that in to ft/lbs for whatever reason)

cody.vandieren wrote:

So i installed a set of Etecnos about a month ago. Did not do a continuity check.

My question is if anyone else experiences this failure without checking them with a meter the CEL should appear correct?

The ECU does a resistance check on each plug before sending power to them. If there was a plug that was out of range (or failed) you will get a CEL light.

I'm in the shop now testing the plugs. On the bench they all test correctly - on my multi-meter reading resistance they all read about ~1.5 ohms. I tried wiggling the tops and tips both with my fingers and with insulated pliers and was not able to cause them to move.

I will update when I install and torque into a cylinder head.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:22 am

OY

cevans wrote:

Hm..that is strange - what were you looking at? All the diesels I work on all have very low torque values for glow plugs. TDIs are 11 ft-lbs and the new Mercedes 3.0L V6 is 9 ft/lbs too. Anything that has an aluminum cylinder head will have very low glow plug torque.You can't use a ft/lb wrench for these - you need to use an in/lb wrench. I have a in/lb torque wrench specifically for glow plugs. Such low torque will be below the accurate range for a ft/lb wrench. (the factory manuals actually use in/lb or Nm for the torque specs, people on these forums have just translated that in to ft/lbs for whatever reason)

I'm not above making mistakes, but as outlined in my original post, I torqued all to 12.5 Newton meters. As Per Spec.

I have never seen a lower torque value for a glow plug. Even VW is 15 Newton meters. You may know of some that are lower. I don't.

I don't have to translate anything. My 1/4 drive torque wrench is calibrated for Nm as well.

Seriously. I took notes of everything I tried and what happened when I tried. It's all there.

I didn't take the time to box them up and send them back just for fun or to make your life or anyone else's difficult, but basically I'm waiting on glow plugs to move forward with this project, since there's really no sense assembling it further just to take it back apart to install the glow plugs.

Thanks for being thorough though. I do appreciate that.

cevans · **Joined:** Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:48 pm **Posts:** 278

GordnadoCRD wrote:

OY

cevans wrote:

Hm..that is strange - what were you looking at? All the diesels I work on all have very low torque values for glow plugs. TDIs are 11 ft-lbs and the new Mercedes 3.0L V6 is 9 ft/lbs too. Anything that has an aluminum cylinder head will have very low glow plug torque.You can't use a ft/lb wrench for these - you need to use an in/lb wrench. I have a in/lb torque wrench specifically for glow plugs. Such low torque will be below the accurate range for a ft/lb wrench. (the factory manuals actually use in/lb or Nm for the torque specs, people on these forums have just translated that in to ft/lbs for whatever reason)

I'm not above making mistakes, but as outlined in my original post, I torqued all to 12.5 Newton meters. As Per Spec.

I have never seen a lower torque value for a glow plug. Even VW is 15 Newton meters. You may know of some that are lower. I don't.

I don't have to translate anything. My 1/4 drive torque wrench is calibrated for Nm as well.

Seriously. I took notes of everything I tried and what happened when I tried. It's all there.

I didn't take the time to box them up and send them back just for fun or to make your life or anyone else's difficult, but basically I'm waiting on glow plugs to move forward with this project, since there's really no sense assembling it further just to take it back apart to install the glow plugs.

Thanks for being thorough though. I do appreciate that.

"You may know of some that are lower. I don't."

I don't understand the meaning of that sentence. Just because you don't know of one doesn't mean one doesn't exist. I even gave an example of another very widely used engine that that uses the 12 nm glow plug torque specification above...my point is that the low torque specification is *not* rare. If I've missed your point please clarify.

I have completed repeating your testing procedure. Here are my findings.

1) when torqued all glow plug terminal begin to exhibit a 'wobble'. I have video taped the wobble and will submit a question to the factory regarding that. If anything the wobble may decrease plug life as the internals are shaking with the engine.
2) ALL plugs tested for proper resistance when installed into the test cylinder head. All read 1.1-1.2 ohms between the terminal top and the cylinder head. I attempted to wobble the tops of the plugs to try and make the plugs disconnect, but at no point did the plugs lose continuity.

So, I can confirm the wobble issue, but I did not find any evidence of plugs losing their continuity. These plugs will work properly when installed. I'll keep this thread updated with the response I get from the factory regarding the wobble as that is a concern.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:47 am

Cevans,

There seems to be a level of misunderstanding / misinterpretation between us I find increasingly surprising in light of the fact that both of us are communicating in English. It seems as if I have somehow given you the impression that I've implied in some way that this is somehow making an attempt to blame your company. I assure you, if I have, it was never intended, and I sincerely apologize. I will ATTEMPT to clarify all instances of confusion that seem to be coming from me, and hope that I don't make things even worse.

First, I want to thank you for continuing to pursue our concerns, even through your weekend. You people at IDParts continue to exceed every reasonable expectation in looking out for your customers' concerns.

I went back through my posts and found a mistake I would like to correct. I neglected to include the decimals in the Ohms values I stated, of my measurements. The Bosch glow plugs values were 0.5 ohms, not 5 ohms as I mistakenly stated, and that applied to both the metal tipped one, as well as the ceramic tipped ones. My measurement for the 7V etecno1s was "about" 0.7 ohms. When testing, I used a positive test lead with an alligator clip tip attached to the Glow Plug terminal, and a conventional pointed negative lead which I tried at various points on the head, as well as against the hexagonal drive part of the glow plug shell/body. When the glow plugs were properly torqued, I got no measurable difference in resistance, in any of the four originals, no matter where I checked for ground continuity. The fact that our specific resistance readings are different when measuring the Etecnos, (when uninstalled) is not a great concern to me, but that both of us got consistent readings amongst the set, would indicate that with continuity, the heating elements would be considered "normal" in a factory test.

I am told there is a replacement set of four put aside for me. I am interested, if you have the time and inclination, could you, before sending them, install them in the test head, and check them for continuity and wobble in the same way? If they all seem good to you, I will use them without question on your recommendation.

Regarding the terminal movement, based on the responses received in this forum, seems to be a situation that is somehow self-correcting, either by heat, vibration, or both, over an unknown amount of time.

My biggest concern is that, if I were to hit the engine with engine cleaner, foamy degreaser, or spill fuel on any when changing the fuel filter, or spray them with a pressure washer, before the seal between the terminal part and the outside shell has a chance to close up, there could be a strong chance of internal contamination. I do not know what effect this would have, if any, but I believe it to be something that should be avoided. I am definitely interested in the factory response.

The explanation of my statement "You may know of some that are lower. I don't" Is as follows:
This is a statement of acknowledgement of your obviously greater experience regarding automotive diesels and their glow plugs. I know the torque value of the CRD glow plugs to be 12.5 Newton meters. I know the value of the VW TDI glow plugs to be 15 Newton meters, from previous ownership. These are the only automotive diesel glow plugs I have personal experience with. I have no knowledge of any glow plugs with torque values less than 12.5 Newton meters. You pointed out an example of one other that has the equal torque value. I acknowledge, with your greater experience in this area, you could know of others that are indeed less than 12.5 Newton meters. I, personally, have no knowledge of any glow plugs that have torque values less than 12.5 Newton meters.

There seems to be some things unclear about my original test outline, but I am unsure what specifically isn't clear.

The new head in which everything was tested to begin with was sitting on a flat and level bench, with the exhaust studs down. All continuity tests were done using a high accuracy digital ohms meter, and the test leads were as outlined above. When I tested the etecnos in the old head, it was posed in the same manner.

When checking for the torque point at which the continuity disappeared, things changed a little, since I didn't trust the accuracy of even my smallest digital 1/4" drive torque wrench for these small values. The ohms meter was set up in the same way as above, however I had to re-position the head so that the glow plug in the head was axially horizontal, and the box end wrench applying the radial force was parallel with gravity.
With the box end on the glow plug, and a string hung from the other end of the wrench, I simply began to add weight to the string until the effect started to be seen on the ohms meter. At that point, I first measure the distance from the tip of the glow plug terminal, to the string, in a level direction perpendicular to gravity, measured in millimeters. (R) then measured the mass of the weight, the string, and the wrench with the string end on the scale, and the other end of the wrench held off of the scale at the point vertical to the center of the terminal point of the glow plug, all measured in grams. (M) At this point M/R gives directly Kg-Meters of torque. So when I got the result of 0.255 Kg-Meters, and factored out the acceleration of gravity (x nine point eight) the result is 2.5 Newton meters.
Then reset everything the way it was, and continue to add weight and reset the wrench as close to level as possible, until the continuity disappeared (I swear to you, at this shop, all four really did) the Kg-meters were between .397 and .406 through the set of 4. As to how or why I got this result and you did not, I have no explanation, or even a hypothesis.

If you have any other questions about procedures, equipment, or motives other than to get this project finished with the best possible result, please ask, and I will happily answer to the best of my ability.

Again, Thank you.
Gordon

undrgnd · **Joined:** Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:47 am **Posts:** 194

cevans wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

OY

cevans wrote:

Hm..that is strange - what were you looking at? All the diesels I work on all have very low torque values for glow plugs. TDIs are 11 ft-lbs and the new Mercedes 3.0L V6 is 9 ft/lbs too. Anything that has an aluminum cylinder head will have very low glow plug torque.You can't use a ft/lb wrench for these - you need to use an in/lb wrench. I have a in/lb torque wrench specifically for glow plugs. Such low torque will be below the accurate range for a ft/lb wrench. (the factory manuals actually use in/lb or Nm for the torque specs, people on these forums have just translated that in to ft/lbs for whatever reason)

I'm not above making mistakes, but as outlined in my original post, I torqued all to 12.5 Newton meters. As Per Spec.

I have never seen a lower torque value for a glow plug. Even VW is 15 Newton meters. You may know of some that are lower. I don't.

I don't have to translate anything. My 1/4 drive torque wrench is calibrated for Nm as well.

Seriously. I took notes of everything I tried and what happened when I tried. It's all there.

I didn't take the time to box them up and send them back just for fun or to make your life or anyone else's difficult, but basically I'm waiting on glow plugs to move forward with this project, since there's really no sense assembling it further just to take it back apart to install the glow plugs.

Thanks for being thorough though. I do appreciate that.

"You may know of some that are lower. I don't."

I don't understand the meaning of that sentence. Just because you don't know of one doesn't mean one doesn't exist. I even gave an example of another very widely used engine that that uses the 12 nm glow plug torque specification above...my point is that the low torque specification is *not* rare. If I've missed your point please clarify.

I have completed repeating your testing procedure. Here are my findings.

1) when torqued all glow plug terminal begin to exhibit a 'wobble'. I have video taped the wobble and will submit a question to the factory regarding that. If anything the wobble may decrease plug life as the internals are shaking with the engine.
2) ALL plugs tested for proper resistance when installed into the test cylinder head. All read 1.1-1.2 ohms between the terminal top and the cylinder head. I attempted to wobble the tops of the plugs to try and make the plugs disconnect, but at no point did the plugs lose continuity.

So, I can confirm the wobble issue, but I did not find any evidence of plugs losing their continuity. These plugs will work properly when installed. I'll keep this thread updated with the response I get from the factory regarding the wobble as that is a concern.

Suscribed. I reported a wobble issue here back in July. Interested to see what the factory says.

Like I reported on my thread, no cell, no codes but i too am concerned with the wobble over time.

Cheers

cevans · **Joined:** Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:48 pm **Posts:** 278

Quote:

The fact that our specific resistance readings are different when measuring the Etecnos, (when uninstalled) is not a great concern to me, but that both of us got consistent readings amongst the set, would indicate that with continuity, the heating elements would be considered "normal" in a factory test.

I am told there is a replacement set of four put aside for me. I am interested, if you have the time and inclination, could you, before sending them, install them in the test head, and check them for continuity and wobble in the same way? If they all seem good to you, I will use them without question on your recommendation.

Correct, the specific ohm reading will vary based on a lot of factors, the meter itself being one variable, so the consistency across the plugs is the important point.

If you don't want these plugs back you'll have to wait a few more days for our new shipment to arrive because we are currently out of stock. Once that new shipment gets here I'm happy to send a set immediately.

GordnadoCRD wrote:

As to how or why I got this result and you did not, I have no explanation, or even a hypothesis.

Since I wasn't there when you did the testing, there isn't much I can say about why/how you got your results. Based on my testing I would be completely confident installing these plugs in a CRD (my CRD has 5V tuning, otherwise I'd keep them for myself).

Hoping to have an answer about the wobble before the new shipment arrives so we know if this is a real concern or just a design...feature.

Ceearedeedriver · **Joined:** Fri May 06, 2016 8:44 pm **Posts:** 177

There's not much to go wrong here. Reading the resistance is pretty fool proof especially when it comes to comparing continuity to open circuit. OP tested in two different heads which almost certainly rules out head differences. This only leaves torque.

OP, did you apply anti-seize to the threads by any chance? The torque spec in the FSM is for dry threads. Lubing them with a light oil would typically reduce the torque requirement by ~25% and using an anti-seize would reduce it by another ~25% essentially bringing the FSM spec down to ~7Nm. Torquing to the FSM spec with anti-seize is overdoing it by quite a margin.

cevans · **Joined:** Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:48 pm **Posts:** 278

There was no anti-seize or lubricant on the glow plugs that were returned, so OP either cleaned them professionally or such things were not used.

I tested all 4 at finger-tight, half torque and full torque. I did not check them over-torqued.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:39 pm

All threads in my testing were clean and dry, both glow plugs and head. No lubrication, sealing compounds, or anti-seize of any kind were used.

Etecno Glow Plugs defective?

Who is online