Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:38 pm

Quote:

I thought it had to be colder for the fuel gelling to occur and don't the fuel stations add that automatically this time of year? I guess it wouldn't hurt to add some anyway?

I'm not sure how fuel retailers deal with the fuel gelling issue in Canada. It's possible they could use additives.
In this neck of the woods, They use fuel formulation. "Cold weather fuel" tends to have shorter chain hydrocarbons and a much lower level of paraffin. (Paraffin has a much greater BTU potential / volume so OTR vehicles have more power and better mileage) If cold weather hits before fuel suppliers switch to cold weather fuel, fuel gelling becomes an issue. Once the fuel has gelled, added anti-gel additives can work but the fuel must be thoroughly circulated and re-warmed sufficiently for that to happen. Even if fuel at the filter head hasn't gelled it's an even-odds likelihood that fuel in the lines and tank could be gelled. I had a vehicle that was doing what you describe, and seemed to have normal fuel in the engine compartment, but for the anti-gel agent I used to work I had to leave it for 2 days in a garage with a radiant heater directed up at the tank in order for the fuel pump to start circulating. Once that happened within 3 hours I could start and it ran normally.

justinmc · **Posted:** Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:54 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

I'm not sure how fuel retailers deal with the fuel gelling issue in Canada. It's possible they could use additives.
In this neck of the woods, They use fuel formulation. "Cold weather fuel" tends to have shorter chain hydrocarbons and a much lower level of paraffin. (Paraffin has a much greater BTU potential / volume so OTR vehicles have more power and better mileage) If cold weather hits before fuel suppliers switch to cold weather fuel, fuel gelling becomes an issue. Once the fuel has gelled, added anti-gel additives can work but the fuel must be thoroughly circulated and re-warmed sufficiently for that to happen. Even if fuel at the filter head hasn't gelled it's an even-odds likelihood that fuel in the lines and tank could be gelled. I had a vehicle that was doing what you describe, and seemed to have normal fuel in the engine compartment, but for the anti-gel agent I used to work I had to leave it for 2 days in a garage with a radiant heater directed up at the tank in order for the fuel pump to start circulating. Once that happened within 3 hours I could start and it ran normally.

I know for sure that they change the fuel for cold winter starting in Canada around November. My current tank is from last week. I don't know if they add additives or if it comes that way on the fuel supply trucks. Did you read my post about how it started fine when colder and not as good slightly above and below freezing? It seemed to start better when the battery was boosted but this was when it was above freezing. I managed to jump it today to get it started and it runs fine once started and restarts fine when still warm. In the past few days it's started fine at -8C not started at -4C and not started at -9C. A couple of weeks ago it wouldn't start at +5C on a rainy day.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:50 pm

Fuel winterization starts way earlier than November, especially above the snow lines... More like the stations should have been getting winterized diesel starting in September.

justinmc · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:33 am

geordi wrote:

Fuel winterization starts way earlier than November, especially above the snow lines... More like the stations should have been getting winterized diesel starting in September.

That's possible, but where I am in Canada it's still 25C or 77F in September. It doesn't reach freezing temps until November.

justinmc · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:18 pm

After leaving the block heater plugged in overnight it started this morning at -10C (14F) but it had to crank over for at least 3-4 seconds. The voltage while cranking was just above 10V. I'm going to try again later and see how it does.

If it was gelling in the fuel the block heater shouldn't matter since it doesn't heat the fuel. If glow plugs have failed there should be some warning right?

mass-hole · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:11 pm

I use Stanadyne Performance additive year round, not so much for the winter but just to keep the injectors and pump happier. Usually you can find a case of 12-16oz bottles(treats 36 tanks) for around $80 which lasts me a year or so. They do claim it lowers the pour point and filter plug point by up to 40F and 25F.

If you go by their claim that people see an average of 4% increase in MPG's by using it, then you pretty much end up at a net cost of $0. I dont claim thats what I get, but I think of it kinda like changing my oil at short OCI's.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:24 pm

I think you're right about September. This morning my brother went to start his ford diesel that hadn't been run since mid September when he had just filled his rear tank. He was running on his front tank from fuel he had bought earlier in the summer. The fuel was gelled up and wouldn't run. When he switched to the rear tank, after a bit it started up on the September fuel. Once warm he started switching the tanks back and forth till so the gelled fuel would get some warm return, and parked the rig inside so the anti-gel would do it's work. At +17F this morning there was a clear difference in the summer fuel vs the September fuel. PRECISELY what the difference is, I do not know, but the gelled fuel was distinctly cloudy to look at, and moved like warm jello.

justinmc · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:42 pm

GordnadoCRD wrote:

I think you're right about September. This morning my brother went to start his ford diesel that hadn't been run since mid September when he had just filled his rear tank. He was running on his front tank from fuel he had bought earlier in the summer. The fuel was gelled up and wouldn't run. When he switched to the rear tank, after a bit it started up on the September fuel. Once warm he started switching the tanks back and forth till so the gelled fuel would get some warm return, and parked the rig inside so the anti-gel would do it's work. At +17F this morning there was a clear difference in the summer fuel vs the September fuel. PRECISELY what the difference is, I do not know, but the gelled fuel was distinctly cloudy to look at, and moved like warm jello.

Petro-Canada says they sell Winter gas from November to March in Canada. I couldn't find anything about diesel.

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/fuels.aspx

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:15 pm

Diesel usually starts being winterized earlier because it is used for the transport industry, and they don't know where the fuel will end up once it is put into the tank. A truck can have a 1000 mile range on its tanks, which if you are heading to the really-North reaches... Yeah, Ontario or BC might not see snow until November, but in September above the circle you might!

What Gornado describes about the consistency of the fuel is exactly what gelled fuel is. It doesn't pour or flow well at all, and if it was a high percentage of biodiesel, the cloud point / gel point temperatures are much higher. B100 turns to yellow jello somewhere around 45 degrees. IIRC, regular #2 summer diesel does this just above freezing, while winterized diesel does it around 40 below. For the REALLY cold places that hit 60 below, I think they are running a 50/50 blend with kerosene (Diesel #1) to keep it from gelling down to way colder than it should ever be. Don't know that number though.

I wouldn't advise running more than 20% biodiesel in the winter in the USA, and 10% bio in Canada simply because of the very poor cold performance for the fuel.

But ALWAYS keep a bottle of Stanadyne Diesel 911 in your vehicle in the winter, and use Power Service white bottle with every tank. You can't use too much, but the benefits do taper off after about a double-strength dosage. White bottle for winter, silver bottle for summer. Red bottle when you are stuck.

justinmc · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:04 pm

geordi wrote:

But ALWAYS keep a bottle of Stanadyne Diesel 911 in your vehicle in the winter, and use Power Service white bottle with every tank. You can't use too much, but the benefits do taper off after about a double-strength dosage. White bottle for winter, silver bottle for summer. Red bottle when you are stuck.

Good advice I'm sure but I doubt it applies to my current starting situation since it was hard starting in the middle of summer and has just become worse depending on the day and temperature and fuel coming out of the fuel head bleeder isn't gelled. Some days when it was colder it would start better and other days when it was warmer. I decided to switch to my gas ZR2 truck for the winter and I'll try to figure the CRD starting issue out later. It's tolerable as it is in the summer I just can't risk getting stranded again in the winter.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:26 pm

Maybe you have discovered some gap in the gp programming logic where they work good at a warm temp and work good at a really cold temp, but somewhere inbetween not so good?

I remember reading that disconnecting the coolant temp sensor will force the glow plugs to cycle longer.
You could try it. But you'd have to plug it back in one started.

joe_ · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:42 am

WWDiesel wrote:

mass-hole wrote:

You can tell what plugs you have by pulling the connector off and looking at the ring of insulation at the base of the tip. Red = 5V, white =7V ceramic, none=most likely etechno 7V. At least this is what GDE told me.
You should be able to get to at least one of them without removing anything.

Unfortunately not always entirely true, in my case I tried that before ordering new glow plugs and could find no color markings! So I pulled the no. 1 GP and deturmined it indeed was a 7v glow plug and ordered the 7v Etechnos...

So when I removed all four Bosch 7v ceramics, none of them had any colored rings, only the stamped markings visible after removing them identified what they actually were... :shock:

see picture:

The white rings can be difficult to see on the Bosch 7v ceramic plugs when they get old because the ring gets dirty and blends in with the metal, but they're there, just above the hex portion. Also the plastic is more of a "clear" white than a "white" white, so that really doesn't help either.

justinmc · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:29 pm

flash7210 wrote:

Maybe you have discovered some gap in the gp programming logic where they work good at a warm temp and work good at a really cold temp, but somewhere inbetween not so good?

I remember reading that disconnecting the coolant temp sensor will force the glow plugs to cycle longer.
You could try it. But you'd have to plug it back in one started.

It certainly is weird. Hopefully I can figure it out. One thing that's possible is the ECU is messed up. I know the previous owner had taken it to the dealer and they reflashed it to try to solve the starting issue but it didn't work and they recommended a new ECU. Once I get my new MPPS 13.02 reader I'll see if that works since my MPPS 16 would only read the device ID not the data.

Thanks. I may try unplugging just to see what happens but it's obviously not a good long term fix unless it works and I wire up a remote switch.

skjeep · **Posted:** Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:25 pm

Justinmc,

it seems that i have a similar issue with my libby.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85702

When the temp is below -10°C or above 5°C it starts fine, it has problems only in the temp range between +2 and -9 °C.

And it started (or became worse) just after the Etecno plugs came in. So it must be a glow plug issue or some software glitch in the glow plug management

justinmc · **Posted:** Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:57 pm

skjeep wrote:

Justinmc,

it seems that i have a similar issue with my libby.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85702

When the temp is below -10°C or above 5°C it starts fine, it has problems only in the temp range between +2 and -9 °C.

And it started (or became worse) just after the Etecno plugs came in. So it must be a glow plug issue or some software glitch in the glow plug management

That's interesting, thanks for your input. I'm not sure what plugs I have in mine. One of these days I'll pull one and take a look. Mine took a long time to start sometimes even at 20C. It would crank for 3-4 seconds at least before firing up, did yours do that too? Mine seemed to have trouble below -10C lately so I parked it for the winter.

Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD

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