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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:25 am 
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The glow plug behavior you describe does not sound proper for your circumstance.

Have you checked the obd for codes?

EDIT:
Personally, from what you've described I am also leaning towards a new battery, for the reason that when you turn the key on, a voltage that falls too rapidly could be interpreted by the ECU as properly warmed up glow plugs, and cycle off way too soon. I've seen this in GM's. However there could be other problems, and checking the obd for codes is usually quick and easy, and could save you the price of a new battery if it's something else. It could also be no codes or something more expensive, but at least you would know.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:30 am 
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Have you checked that the battery terminal connections are clean and tight, the ground strap from negative stud on battery to chassis is clean and tight both ends and the grounding strap grounding the engine to chassis is clean and tight both ends?

When you use jumper cables to jumper your battery from an exterior battery you connect to the outside of the battery clamps so you get a good connection from your donor battery directly to the wiring so this may be why it starts better with a jump start....ie. there may be corrosion on your battery terminals.

The Glow plug light does normaly go out very fast when in fact the ECU is still pulsing the glow plugs for some time afterwards...the CRD Tech section has some good theory of operations on this pulsing from some experts who have anylised the waveforms with an Oscilloscope and have re-programmed the ECU to make improvements. You can only really see what is happening at the plugs with an Oscilloscope.

There are temperature sensors on the CRD to sense ambient temperature and Turbo intake temperature so maybe there is a problem in that area. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:25 am 
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Thanks for all the advice and ideas everyone. I'm thinking the issue is battery related in that the battery is just a bit low and it doesn't crank fast enough to start at cool temps but the glow plugs come on longer at colder temps and make up for the slightly slower cranking speed.

I just tried to start it at 10C (50F) and it started right up in a few seconds. Battery voltage was 11.7v while cranking. I may plug in the block heater if it's 8C (46F) or colder and see if that helps.

I'm going to get my battery checked again for CCA and see if I can get a replacement. It's a 4 yr old 9 yr warranty Everstart MAXX-65N battery from Walmart with 1000CA 850CCA.


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:15 pm 
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justinmc wrote:
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Do you know what glow plug system exists in your vehicle? Such as 5V vs 7V, and if 7V which system?

Some have mentioned the "upgraded" Bosch steel 5v system is uniquely odd since they have Lower operating temps, higher current requirements, and less effective heated surface area than either of the 7V systems. Also the ecu programming may have variable 1-0-1-0 cycle duration depending on ambient temperature, which could explain why it starts better at or below freezing.


I don't know what the vehicle has, I would assume the factory ones. I would also assume factory ECU programmings since the previous owner wasn't a technical guy. I've bought a USB to OBD2 adapter and I'll be looking at the programming soon with it.


PLEASE find out whether it has the original factory glow plugs, and if so, replace them ASAP. If the 7V system is intact, eTecno1's are the cheapest, and (other issues aside), SAFEST replacements. The factory original glow plugs are NOT SAFE and were recalled because of that. Honestly you should address that issue BEFORE worrying about a battery that performs at 85%.

If they already have been replaced with steel tipped plugs, well then, do as you will.

I would hate to hear of yet another CRD libby that is stuck stranded roadside with broken valves / rockers, because the driver ignored a hazardous situation that is so well documented.

Thanks in advance

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:29 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:

PLEASE find out whether it has the original factory glow plugs, and if so, replace them ASAP. If the 7V system is intact, eTecno1's are the cheapest, and (other issues aside), SAFEST replacements. The factory original glow plugs are NOT SAFE and were recalled because of that. Honestly you should address that issue BEFORE worrying about a battery that performs at 85%.

If they already have been replaced with steel tipped plugs, well then, do as you will.

I would hate to hear of yet another CRD libby that is stuck stranded roadside with broken valves / rockers, because the driver ignored a hazardous situation that is so well documented.

Thanks in advance


The fuel head has been replaced so if the glow plugs are a factory recall they've probably been replaced as well. What's an easy way to check which I have?


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:19 am 
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I would start by looking at the glow plug relay up near the brake booster. If it is a 5V unit, then the recall was taken care of and you have one less thing to worry about. If it is still 7V then the surest way would be to pull a glow plug and inspect it. If it is NOT an eTecno1 then you should have them all replaced, because if any eTecno1's were installed they would have done the whole set. If not, you still have the defective ceramics.

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'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:42 am 
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The glow plug relay doesnt provide any indication as to what voltage the glow plugs are or the ECU programmed voltage. The relay only shows 12v and its part number.
The relay is the same for both 5v and 7v glow plugs. No change in part numbers.

If the dealer performed the 5v glow plug upgrade then there should be a sticker somewhere indicating the 5v glow plugs are required and a revision number for the ECU.
Without any of that info you could consult a dealer service center about the vehicle service history. Or you can remove a glow plug to check the color coded ring.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:06 am 
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flash7210 wrote:
The glow plug relay doesnt provide any indication as to what voltage the glow plugs are or the ECU programmed voltage. The relay only shows 12v and its part number.
The relay is the same for both 5v and 7v glow plugs. No change in part numbers.

If the dealer performed the 5v glow plug upgrade then there should be a sticker somewhere indicating the 5v glow plugs are required and a revision number for the ECU.
Without any of that info you could consult a dealer service center about the vehicle service history. Or you can remove a glow plug to check the color coded ring.


My ECU is updated to the latest revision, 56044776BB if that helps. The factory sticker shows 56044776AF.


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:32 pm 
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justinmc wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
The glow plug relay doesnt provide any indication as to what voltage the glow plugs are or the ECU programmed voltage. The relay only shows 12v and its part number.
The relay is the same for both 5v and 7v glow plugs. No change in part numbers.

If the dealer performed the 5v glow plug upgrade then there should be a sticker somewhere indicating the 5v glow plugs are required and a revision number for the ECU.
Without any of that info you could consult a dealer service center about the vehicle service history. Or you can remove a glow plug to check the color coded ring.


My ECU is updated to the latest revision, 56044776BB if that helps. The factory sticker shows 56044776AF.

Is there a date indicating when the revision was applied? I dont know what each revision number means.
On my 05 there is a sticker on the timing cover that says 7v glow plugs. I would think that if the dealer changed it 5v there would be a sticker saying 5v glow plugs.

You can use 7v glow plugs on a 5v system, they just wont burn as hot.
Likewise you can use 5v plugs on a 7v system, they will burn hotter but wont last as long.
The important part is to make sure that the original ceramics have been replaced with metal plugs.
When in doubt, pull a plug and inspect.

edit:
found this- ECU flash metallic GLP 68090474AA

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:15 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
Is there a date indicating when the revision was applied? I dont know what each revision number means.
On my 05 there is a sticker on the timing cover that says 7v glow plugs. I would think that if the dealer changed it 5v there would be a sticker saying 5v glow plugs.

You can use 7v glow plugs on a 5v system, they just wont burn as hot.
Likewise you can use 5v plugs on a 7v system, they will burn hotter but wont last as long.
The important part is to make sure that the original ceramics have been replaced with metal plugs.
When in doubt, pull a plug and inspect.

edit:
found this- ECU flash metallic GLP 68090474AA


This link lists my update as the one after the update to change the glow plug voltage so looks like they should be fine. It seems to be a bit of pain to take a plug out, like removing the alternator first?

viewtopic.php?t=47169


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:43 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
The factory original glow plugs are NOT SAFE and were recalled because of that. Honestly you should address that issue BEFORE worrying about a battery that performs at 85%.

If they already have been replaced with steel tipped plugs, well then, do as you will.

I would hate to hear of yet another CRD libby that is stuck stranded roadside with broken valves / rockers, because the driver ignored a hazardous situation that is so well documented.

Thanks in advance


I talked to my local Dodge dealer and Fiat Chrysler Automotive group and neither one has a glow plug recall listed for the vehicle so nobody can say for sure if they were replaced. There also doesn't seem to be recall for the fuel head heater which I thought was a recall, but it's been replaced for sure. Is the easiest glow plug to remove the one behind the alternator?


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:09 pm 
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justinmc wrote:
GordnadoCRD wrote:
The factory original glow plugs are NOT SAFE and were recalled because of that. Honestly you should address that issue BEFORE worrying about a battery that performs at 85%.

If they already have been replaced with steel tipped plugs, well then, do as you will.

I would hate to hear of yet another CRD libby that is stuck stranded roadside with broken valves / rockers, because the driver ignored a hazardous situation that is so well documented.

Thanks in advance


I talked to my local Dodge dealer and Fiat Chrysler Automotive group and neither one has a glow plug recall listed for the vehicle so nobody can say for sure if they were replaced. There also doesn't seem to be recall for the fuel head heater which I thought was a recall, but it's been replaced for sure. Is the easiest glow plug to remove the one behind the alternator?

There was never a recall for the glow plugs or the fuel filter head. They were just revised/upgraded hardware. And in the case of the 5v glow plugs, required a software revision.

The post you linked is from 2009.
This one from 2011 shows a different ECM number for the 5v metal glow plugs:
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63441&view=next

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:26 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
The post you linked is from 2009.
This one from 2011 shows a different ECM number for the 5v metal glow plugs:
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63441&view=next


So maybe mine doesn't have the glow plugs changed or they programmed the wrong ECU update. What's the easiest glow plug to remove to confirm?

EDIT: This link shows a comment with the following:

56044671AA: factory glow plug module for 7v ceramic

56044671AC: updated glow plug module - included as part of 5v conversion

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=77972

So isn't that a different ECU all together than mine?


Last edited by justinmc on Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:11 pm 
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Quote:
56044671AA: factory glow plug module for 7v ceramic

56044671AC: updated glow plug module - included as part of 5v conversion


Those part numbers are for the glow plug relay.
They both have the exact same Bosch #.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:19 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:

Those part numbers are for the glow plug relay.
They both have the exact same Bosch #.


Okay, So I won't be able to look for a sticker that says which I have? Is there any way to know if I have 5v or 7v glow plugs without actually pulling one?


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:26 pm 
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justinmc wrote:
flash7210 wrote:

Those part numbers are for the glow plug relay.
They both have the exact same Bosch #.


Okay, So I won't be able to look for a sticker that says which I have? Is there any way to know if I have 5v or 7v glow plugs without actually pulling one?

I guess not.
Like I mentioned before, mine has a sticker on the timing cover that says "7 volt glow plugs"

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:39 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
I guess not.
Like I mentioned before, mine has a sticker on the timing cover that says "7 volt glow plugs"


Mine has a sticker there that says "Caution CERAMIC Glow Plug Operating Voltage 7 V - HANDLE WITH CARE". I assume that's there from the factory and if the plugs were replaced by a dealer they would put a sticker over it but if someone else changed them maybe not? Seems some people like the ceramic better. You have 7v metal glow plugs then?


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:56 pm 
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It doesn't matter if people "like" the ceramic plugs better - they CAN AND HAVE destroyed engines when they fail out and explode shrapnel into the cylinder.

Yes, you have to remove one to know for certain, the #1 behind the alternator is the fastest one to get at. The colored rings don't seem to directly mean anything, you have to pull it entirely and look at the barrel and the tip. If the tip is straight (not tapered) then it is a ceramic.

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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:52 pm 
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geordi wrote:
It doesn't matter if people "like" the ceramic plugs better - they CAN AND HAVE destroyed engines when they fail out and explode shrapnel into the cylinder.

Yes, you have to remove one to know for certain, the #1 behind the alternator is the fastest one to get at. The colored rings don't seem to directly mean anything, you have to pull it entirely and look at the barrel and the tip. If the tip is straight (not tapered) then it is a ceramic.


That makes sense. Is there any idea at how many miles/km they tend to fail? Can I measure the voltage going to the glow plugs and see if it's 5v or 7v? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Strange starting issue - 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:56 am 
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You don't need to measure anything - it will be engraved on the side of the plug. If you have ceramic, then they are 7V and the Etechno plugs are a drop-in replacement.

As far as what mileage they might fail at... What is the sound of one hand clapping? It cannot be known, they don't seem to be predictable, but they are ALL aging if they are still in service. Better safe than sorry. When they start to die, the resistance increases and the computer can detect this and throw a code. However it also still supplies voltage, which makes the plug hotter (higher resistance = more heat) until they overheat completely and shatter. VERY BAD.

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