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Electrical nightmare... FIXED - Kinda.
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85586		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  geordi [ Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Electrical nightmare... FIXED - Kinda.
The CRD starts and drives just fine. Of course this is intermittent, and didn't show itself before I bought it.

When it decides to go screwy, here is list of symptoms - see if you can figure out a common thread, b/c I'm at a loss right now.

The dashboard is basically dead - No speedometer, tach, fuel or temp gauges. All off. However, This is the dashboard:

Image

The A/C is non-responsive, the headlights are non-responsive, the AC would actually STOP working when I turned on the lights (fog or headlights) but when I turned the engine off and REMOVED THE KEY - then the fan starts blowing. The transmission is in limp mode, locked in 3rd gear. Turning the fog lights or the headlights on gets no exterior lights (and the parking lights are also dead) BUT with the key off, turning on the fogs or the headlights illuminates the brake light on the dash.

Hazard lights work, turn signals also (surprisingly) seem to work.

The first time I pulled codes, it gave me this, but the dash and everything was working. I just pulled codes to clear it b/c the idiot light was on:

Image

Then a few hours later, reported this, when everything was going completely insane.

Image

Notice that there is a code for oxygen sensors? Yeah... We don't have that. So I kinda discount all of these as garbage codes. Again - runs and drives.

These codes refuse to clear with the engine off:

Image

EDIT:

So there turned out to be a three-wire ground point that is NOT MARKED IN THE MANUAL located directly behind and under the left (driver's) headlight. This was the only ground that I found that was rusted, and probably b/c of the location right in the air / water flow past the fog and headlight. When messing with this one, the headlights FINALLY responded and the blower shut off. YAY for success!

Checked the interior... And then saw that the radio was now not illuminated (no display). Without finding any source of problem, the radio decided to light up and seems to be working normally. All codes cleared and the only ones that remained was the 610 (improper coding) and the EGR and FCV codes, which went away when I swapped it to Nick's tune file.

So a lot less critical but still frustrating. Thoughts?
Author:  flash7210 [ Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
If its an 05 I would suggest the FCM or gateway module or whatever its supposed to be called.
Author:  jws84_02 [ Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
The P0610 code at the bottom sticks out to me. Do you have a spair ecu to swap in just to see if the ecu went screwy
Author:  flash7210 [ Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Could also be a battery/voltage problem.

Some info about p0610
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84627
Author:  papaindigo [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
If it's an 06 check wiring harness behind fuel filter head bracket and for either year wiring across top of engine. Have you checked grounds? Consider dropping in a known good battery. Beyond that I'm unlikely to be much help.
Author:  sparky123321 [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Probably no help, but I had a Saab a while back that started doing screwy things like that. It was the ignition switch. Even though the vehicle was running and I was driving the ignition switch sometimes thought it was still in the accessory position.

The only reason I mention it is because all your dash warning lights are on.
Author:  papaindigo [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Interesting. I wonder if the notorious plastic key switch shaft is in the process of breaking?
Author:  WWDiesel [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
You are going to have to get a good volt meter or digital test light and start testing individual circuits using the wiring diagrams in the service manual to see where you are losing the voltage feed.
I do not believe it is a computer problem as some of the items you mentioned are 12v feeds and do not go through the the OBC's.
Fuse 13 (10a) circuit is highly suspect since it feeds the body computer and the instrument cluster. (8W-12-20)

And as Sparky stated, good possibility it could be a bad ignition switch with it coming and going like it is?

I know there is a 12v + switched feed from the ignition switch to the back of the instrument panel as I used it to power my Glowshift boost gauge.

If you can test the individual circuits one at a time and refer to the WD's I believe your problem can be pinpointed.
Let me know if I can help!
Author:  geordi [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Any assistance that anyone can offer is much appreciated. I hate electrical glitches b/c these systems are all wired so strangely and this is obvious that the power is back-feeding somewhere.

Pulled the gateway module and cleaned the mounting points, the connection on the module was nice and clean inside, but I added some dielectric grease anyway to ensure it stays clean and dry. Ground point there is now nice and shiny to the bracket, and nice and shiny to the body under it.

I replaced the ignition switch - probably didn't have to, as it changed nothing. I have not found a fuse blown yet, and all fuses in the PDC in the engine are intact. Pulled each to inspect, so it should have also improved the contact with the physical friction.

Here is what happens right now:
Start the engine (headlights and parking lights off) the AC blower will run and the compressor is engaged. For about 10-15 seconds. Then something obviously changes, and the blower and compressor both shut off. At this point, the dashboard starts lighting up, the SKIM and brake lights come on first, then the ABS and the rest follow.

With the KEY OUT and with the ignition switch UNPLUGGED if I turn the parking lights on, the marker lights come on, and in headlight mode the AC blower runs - Moving wiring harnesses around in the engine changes nothing. The headlights do not come on and the blower continues to run. The "lights are on" chime is sounding.

Pulling the high beam stalk also starts the blower, whether the lights are on or not, but only while the Daytime Running Light relay is in place. If that relay is pulled, the blower does not run, but the lights also do not illuminate.

So... What do I need to tear apart and where do I start looking? I feel like it is a ground or a relay issue, but I don't know where they are physically located on the interior.
Author:  rankom [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
I'm not an electrical guy but it does sound that ground is missing ? so i wonder if it is possible to add ground strap to engine or frame , just to see if it will help to your problem?
Author:  WWDiesel [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
geordi, with it crapping out 10-15 seconds after you start it sounds to me like a bad relay that is dropping out after being powered up. All relays are in the power distribution panel under the hood and a few are in the fuse panel in the fuse panel on the left side of the dash. All the main power relays are under the hood while the relays in the dash panel are all for ancillary equipment...
A bad ground is always a possibility, but with it dropping out after the 10-15 second interval I highly suspect again it is a relay dropping out....

Again, a digital volt meter or test light can tell you where the power is being dropped...
It is a matter of testing each power circuit and eliminate each one till the culprit is found.... :wink:
Author:  geordi [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Problem is - Without power to anything -key out- and the BCM also removed, pulling the high beam stalk ignites the parking light on the passenger side (driver is out anyway) and the fan once again starts. DANGIT!!!!

I have another PDC, that will be getting swapped in momentarily after I have some dinner.

At least I have identified where the problem is not - without the BCM connected, still having the problem says the computer is not involved and hopefully also the gateway is not involved.

Isolation continues.
Author:  Sir Sam [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Sounds like grounds problems.

While I have not had similar experences with the KJ I once had an XJ give me all sorts of fits - including having the door locks honk the horn, because of bad grounds.

So time to bust out the manual and check what you do and dont have for power, sensor feed, and grounds.
Author:  geordi [ Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Swapping the fuse box / power distribution box did nothing. key out, pull the high beam, and the blower activates.

Where in the manual do they have the actual LOCATIONS for the grounds? All I have found is the squared off circuit diagrams that are impossibly difficult to translate into english of "the wire is under this panel in this place" so I can look for corrosion or a break or just replace it.

goddamnit I hate electrical problems.
Author:  Mountainman [ Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
This sounds like the problems the guy has that made a Gasser into a CRD. I really hope that VIN jives with a CRD. Probably not the problem, um. I would start with grounds forms the ecu and anything that can trigger the blower, like the AC.
What about a bad connection at the AC, plus a bad wheel sensor, plus a bad clock spring, or some similar combination? If the PO never fixed anything then maybe they piled up. or like josh thought, the ecu has rabies.
Tired random thoughts, please disregard lol
Author:  geordi [ Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Problems started after a detail job at a local car wash ($200 detail job) and the headlights did work before. Considering that everything they worked on was inside the car other than the outside body - never under the hood - then the next thing is to start looking at the full interior. I don't understand how they could have screwed something so badly, but there must be a loose harness somewhere. So I'm going to unplug the computers to protect them and connect a battery charger to keep the power up... And start wiggling wires until I find something that makes it change.

I've isolated that it is not the column / keyswitch or the BCM or the PDC inside... It must be in the floor somewhere or under the dash. Maybe they broke something while vacuuming?

I'm going to be going back there after I figure this out, b/c definitely I'm not a happy customer at the moment. There isn't any reason the wiring should be damaged by a carpet shampoo and detail procedure, but everything worked when I test-drove it, b/c that was at night.

FYI: Yes, the VIN is a CRD. If it is a conversion, its a dang good one. :frankie:
Author:  mrhemi [ Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
If the"Detail Shop" wet shampooed the carpets, have a look under the rear seat carpet at the wire harness plugs. I believe the harness that goes to the ABS sensors and fuel tank has a connection plug there. If it is damp, or worse yet soaked with water or cleaning solution, which can be corrosive over time, that could be your culprit. If they sprayed cleaning solution in the OBD port that would not be good either, however, you seem to have had your scan tool harness connected without issue. Although, see the engineering "White Paper" below.

“A Treatise on the Importance of Smoke”

by the Prince of Darkness, Joseph Lucas.

All electrical components and wiring harnesses depend on proper
circuit functioning, which is the transmission of charged ions by
retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke".
Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work. Don't be
fooled by scientists and engineers talking about excited electrons
and the like. Smoke is the key to all things electrical.

We know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of
an electrical circuit, it stops working. This can be verified
repeatedly through empirical testing. For example, if one places a
large copper bar across the terminals of a battery, prodigious
quantities of smoke are liberated and the battery shortly ceases to
function. In addition, if one observes smoke escaping from an
electrical component such as a Lucas voltage regulator, it will also
be observed that the component no longer functions.

The logic is elementary and inescapable! The function of the wiring
harness is to conduct the smoke from one device to another. When the
wiring harness springs a leak and lets all the smoke out of the
system, nothing works right afterward.

Starter motors were considered unsuitable for British motorcycles for
some time largely because they regularly released large quantities of
smoke from the electrical system.

It has been reported that Lucas electrical components are possibly
more prone to electrical leakage than their Bosch, Japanese or
American counterparts. Experts point out that this is because Lucas
is British, and all things British leak. British engines leak oil,
British shock absorbers, hydraulic forks, and disk brake systems leak
fluid, British tires leak air and British Intelligence leaks national
defense secrets.

Therefore, it follows that British electrical systems must leak
smoke. Once again, the logic is clear and inescapable.

Sometimes you may miss the component releasing the smoke that makes
your electrical system function correctly, but if you sniff around
you can often find the faulty component by the undeniable and
telltale smoke smell. Sometimes this is a better indicator than
standard electrical tests performed with a volt-ohm meter.

In conclusion, the basic concept of transmission of electrical energy
in the form of smoke provides a clear and logical explanation of the
mysteries of electrical components and why they fail.

"A gentleman does not motor about after dark."
- Joseph Lucas, 1842 - 1903

I learned a long time ago that once you let the "Factory Smoke" out of
any electrical device, it is next to impossible to replenish.


Cheers, mrhemi.
Author:  papaindigo [ Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
Unlikely but possible. Check the wiring that runs under the carpet/sound pad in a groove in the "frame". Check wiring plugs to the sensors under both driver and passenger seats.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
geordi wrote:
Where in the manual do they have the actual LOCATIONS for the grounds?

If you look at pages 8W - 91 - 1 through 8W - 91 - 10 in the FSM, it is a table that lists every ground and / or connection in the KJ along with the locations...
As others have stated, check under the carpet padding in the floorboards and see if any are wet spots are found and then look for any connectors or wiring in any wet areas found...

Quote:
From the FSM:
This section provides illustrations identifying connector,
ground, and splice locations in the vehicle.
Author:  geordi [ Wed Nov 16, 2016 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electrical nightmare... Where to start?
So the short is across the high beam relay, somehow the power is coming from there to the blower motor. No clue why but that disables the headlights and everything else. So nice that one wire manages to screw everything at once.

I looped a bungee around the stalk and engaged the high beam - with the key out, BCM disconnected, ECM disconnected, and a battery charger on to feed the battery so the darn fan could just run. I start pushing on wires and on the carpet, no result in the front anywhere. Go to the back and right at the foot of the rear seat on the driver's side - Press there and the fan stops! Repeated it several times including while unbolting the seat bottoms so I could get to the carpet which of course is one giant piece.

Finally get the wires exposed, fan is blowing... Press on the wires all over - nothing. NOTHING! WTFFFF???????

Nothing was wet or even damp or showed any signs of liquid contamination under the rubber matting, and I also found plenty of dirt and a cigarette butt and a couple coins - UNDER the rubber matting. I'm at a loss to explain that. Next will be cutting the harness apart all the way to the rear if I have to. I've pulled the front seat as well, the entire driver's side pan and harness is exposed, but WTF man! Nothing looks shorted or damaged in any way so how did this happen?
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