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 Post subject: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:30 pm 
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FCA EcoDiesel Quiet in Center of Storm
Wards Auto -Gary Witzenburg
Diesel engines have been in the news a lot the past year, but for all the wrong reasons. As we know, Volkswagen was caught cheating on the emissions of its popular
passenger-car diesels.
The aftermath of that has been an ongoing legal, financial and public relations disaster for VW and a black eye for diesels, especially in the U.S. where, unlike Europe,
car and CUV diesels have only niche-market status. VW’s global brand chief recently said the brand no longer will offer diesel vehicles in the U.S.
Scandal aside, while diesels offer significant torque and efficiency advantages over gasoline engines, the fact they clatter when cold, vibrate more at idle and require
expensive exhaust aftertreatment systems limits their appeal to U.S. car buyers.
But bigger diesel engines remain the engine of choice for heavy-duty pickups and commercial-vehicles because of their torque superiority and better-than-gas efficiency
towing and hauling heavy loads.
Now, thanks to FCA’s 3.0L V-6 EcoDiesel in the Ram 1500 and GM’s 2.8L 4-cyl. Duramax in the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon, diesels are carving out a
new niche in light-duty pickups that has gone unscathed by the VW controversy, despite hefty price premiums ($4,770 in the Ram 1500).
“For certain products, that’s what you need to do the work, says FCA’s Bob Lee, vice president-Global Powertrain. “If you want to tow a large boat or work with
construction equipment, diesel is the most efficient.”
FCA’s 60-degree V-6 EcoDiesel works so well in the Ram 1500, and offers such gas-engine-like quietness and refinement, it has won a Wards 10 Best Engine trophy
for three straight years since its debut as a ’14 model.
It has a compacted graphite iron block, aluminum heads, dual chain-driven overhead camshafts, 24 valves and a 29,000 psi (2,000-bar) common-rail fuel-injection
system with solenoid injectors. In the ’16 Ram 1500 quad-cab RWD pickup tested by WardsAuto editors, it generates 240 hp at 3,600 rpm and a very healthy 420
lb.-ft. (570 Nm) of peak torque at 2,000 rpm. Yet it is rated at 21/29 mpg (11.2-8.1 L/100 km) highway and 24 mpg (9.8 L/100 km) combined, impressive for a
fullsize pickup.
A key contributor to the Ecodiesel’s performance and refinement, as well as its emissions compliance, is a multi-pulse injection concept Fiat developed some years ago.
Small “pilot” injections of fuel before the main injection create a better air-fuel mixture for more efficient combustion and lower emissions. Then post-combustion spritzes
send fuel through the exhaust system to create bursts of heat that clean the diesel particulate filter. As a side benefit, using multiple shorter, smaller injections also reduces
diesel clatter.
The engine’s most noticeable upgrade for 2016 is better part-load responsiveness, which has improved its launch time 30% and its initial acceleration. “Diesel engines
require a careful balance between gaseous and particulate tailpipe emissions, fuel economy, NVH and drivability over a wide range of ambient temperatures and
altitude,” Lee says, “and we worked diligently to attain performance-feel improvements while ensuring no discernible degradation in other characteristics.”
How was that accomplished? “The EcoDiesel’s variable geometry turbocharger and the multiple-injection capability of Multi-Jet II technology are the most significant
contributors, because they afford greater control over air and fuel management. Multi-Jet II utilizes high-dispersion nozzles that can accommodate up to eight injection
events per combustion cycle.”
It also required additional fine-tuning of its engine management controls. “Electronic controls are among the most powerful tools we have to achieve performance gains,”
Lee says. “We developed new control strategies to shape torque in response to all the relevant inputs – pedal, transmission, engine and vehicle speed. This also required
us to introduce new combustion controls to maintain emissions compliance and preserve our fuel-economy leadership.”
The engine was developed in 2008-2009 by Italy’s VM Motori (which FCA now owns) and has served well in European-market Jeep Grand Cherokees, Chrysler
300Cs (known there as Lancia Themas) and even some Maserati sedans. Other key contributors to its quietness are its highly rigid CGI block and bedplate. CGI is a
stronger, denser form of iron that typically reduces combustion noise 0.5 to 1.5 dBA compared with conventional gray iron.
And while that construction helped its suitability for North American applications, its control calibration, combustion and fuel-injection characteristics were tweaked to
further improve NVH for U.S. and Canadian customers accustomed to smooth, quiet gasoline power.
Beyond taming its acoustic personality, the toughest challenge in bringing the diesel to North America was certifying both its emissions and its on-board diagnostic
systems for tougher U.S. rules. Meeting today’s and tomorrow’s squeaky-clean U.S. emissions standards requires the highly complex aftertreatment combination of a
diesel oxidation catalyst, a diesel particulate filter and selective catalyst reduction, a system that needs a lot more sensors and controls than current European versions, at
least for now.
Comparing it to GM’s smaller 2.8L Duramax 4-cylinder turbodiesel and the larger Cummins 5.0L V-8 available in Nissan’s Titan XD pickup, WardsAuto judges (in
Three Bears nursery rhyme style) declared the first “too small,” the second “too big,” both noticeably noisier, and the 3.0L Ecodiesel V-6 “ideally sized, “amazingly
quiet” and “just right” in size. They also called it highly flexible, as evidenced by its use in some European Maseratis, and “well-suited for towing lots of things.” And in
their 10 days of testing it in a Ram 1500 pickup, they saw observed fuel economy approaching 24 mpg (9.8 L/100 km).
“This 3.0L continues to impress us with ideal measures of power, torque, refinement and luxury-car smoothness,” they concluded.
Is there room for further improvement as customer and CAFE demands ramp up each year? “There is certainly room for improvement,” Lee responds. “There always
is. As engineers, we can’t change the laws of physics, but we can find new ways of improving the engine hardware, aftertreatment system, lubricants and electronic
controls.”


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 Post subject: Re: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:24 am 
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Cool article. Thanks for sharing. Chain driven camshafts. Looks like no timing belt on the 3.0.

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 Post subject: Re: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:51 pm 
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Funny, because supposedly there is a class-action lawsuit being filed against FCA over them doing the same things as VW with this motor.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161201005646/en/Hagens-Berman-Consumers-Sue-Fiat-Chrysler-Bosch

Heres to hoping GM wasnt stupid with the 2.8L. I think there is a better chance they werent since they are not using Bosch injection systems.

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 Post subject: Re: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:57 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
Funny, because supposedly there is a class-action lawsuit being filed against FCA over them doing the same things as VW with this motor.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161201005646/en/Hagens-Berman-Consumers-Sue-Fiat-Chrysler-Bosch

Heres to hoping GM wasnt stupid with the 2.8L. I think there is a better chance they werent since they are not using Bosch injection systems.

My distrust of lawyers has me inclined to believe that this is a copycat suit and contains zero evidence of wrongdoing. It also reminds me of a similar suit against Mercedes that has gone nowhere.

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 Post subject: Re: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:39 pm 
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That is also interesting because I have been told that the 3.0 has a timing belt much the same as the 2.8 (since it shares many parts this makes sense) and as far as lawsuits go... I have also seen where the 3.0 has been suffering a higher-than-zero amount of head and engine failures due to dropping valves with very low mileage (like 12k in one case I remember).

The owners are having to argue with FCA about this and are hearing that they are all isolated cases (oh that is such a crock of crap) while any that DO finally get a resolution (the ones I have read about have been buybacks with lots of strings attached) have to also clam up b/c the buyback comes with an NDA gag order.

A couple of the reports I remember in particular said that FCA was jerking them around for the better part of a year while they were still on the hook for monthly payments (and had no car) and FCA was making a condition for the buyback that they couldn't be bought out of the original purchase with cash (so no full walkaway) but could take the value of the loan / purchase and put it toward another FCA vehicle of "their choice" but only from a specific list... Which just so happened to restrict the buyers to anything MORE expensive than what they were giving back, but not the super-desirable list like a Challenger Hellcat even though the purchase price is very similar.

SUCH a giant scam. FWIW, I do not think the reports I read about had any lawyers involved, which means the buyers were entirely on their own against FCA. Not the best negotiating position to be in.


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 Post subject: Re: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:06 pm 
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geordi wrote:
That is also interesting because I have been told that the 3.0 has a timing belt much the same as the 2.8 (since it shares many parts this makes sense) and as far as lawsuits go... I have also seen where the 3.0 has been suffering a higher-than-zero amount of head and engine failures due to dropping valves with very low mileage (like 12k in one case I remember).

The owners are having to argue with FCA about this and are hearing that they are all isolated cases (oh that is such a crock of crap) while any that DO finally get a resolution (the ones I have read about have been buybacks with lots of strings attached) have to also clam up b/c the buyback comes with an NDA gag order.

A couple of the reports I remember in particular said that FCA was jerking them around for the better part of a year while they were still on the hook for monthly payments (and had no car) and FCA was making a condition for the buyback that they couldn't be bought out of the original purchase with cash (so no full walkaway) but could take the value of the loan / purchase and put it toward another FCA vehicle of "their choice" but only from a specific list... Which just so happened to restrict the buyers to anything MORE expensive than what they were giving back, but not the super-desirable list like a Challenger Hellcat even though the purchase price is very similar.

SUCH a giant scam. FWIW, I do not think the reports I read about had any lawyers involved, which means the buyers were entirely on their own against FCA. Not the best negotiating position to be in.


I have heard of failures too. I thought I had also read that there is another class action lawsuit around that.

It seems very much like they never learned anything from our jeeps and just continue with the same crap 8-10 years later.

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 Post subject: Re: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:07 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
Funny, because supposedly there is a class-action lawsuit being filed against FCA over them doing the same things as VW with this motor.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161201005646/en/Hagens-Berman-Consumers-Sue-Fiat-Chrysler-Bosch

Heres to hoping GM wasnt stupid with the 2.8L. I think there is a better chance they werent since they are not using Bosch injection systems.

My distrust of lawyers has me inclined to believe that this is a copycat suit and contains zero evidence of wrongdoing. It also reminds me of a similar suit against Mercedes that has gone nowhere.


This could be. I think something similar happened with some model years of the Cummins Rams not to long ago.

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 Post subject: Re: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:27 pm 
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geordi wrote:
That is also interesting because I have been told that the 3.0 has a timing belt much the same as the 2.8 (since it shares many parts this makes sense) and as far as lawsuits go... I have also seen where the 3.0 has been suffering a higher-than-zero amount of head and engine failures due to dropping valves with very low mileage (like 12k in one case I remember).

The owners are having to argue with FCA about this and are hearing that they are all isolated cases (oh that is such a crock of crap) while any that DO finally get a resolution (the ones I have read about have been buybacks with lots of strings attached) have to also clam up b/c the buyback comes with an NDA gag order.

A couple of the reports I remember in particular said that FCA was jerking them around for the better part of a year while they were still on the hook for monthly payments (and had no car) and FCA was making a condition for the buyback that they couldn't be bought out of the original purchase with cash (so no full walkaway) but could take the value of the loan / purchase and put it toward another FCA vehicle of "their choice" but only from a specific list... Which just so happened to restrict the buyers to anything MORE expensive than what they were giving back, but not the super-desirable list like a Challenger Hellcat even though the purchase price is very similar.

SUCH a giant scam. FWIW, I do not think the reports I read about had any lawyers involved, which means the buyers were entirely on their own against FCA. Not the best negotiating position to be in.

Geordi, vm 3.0 from ram and jeep is not even close to the 2.8 vm. Cyl heads, valves, emissions, etc are different. Maybe some bolts would match. In theory, the 3.0 is a bit more advanced technologically, having swirl valves (some sort of vvt but I'd say a bit more advanced), ball bearing turbo electronically controlled - not vacuum (which according to gde is not very optimized having some restrictions). It has a cp4 not cp3 (which I consider a disadvantage since it's less reliable but it outputs more pressure), injectors are also different, FCV is more robust. And it's not as "heavy duty" as the 2.8, being an engine developed in early 2000 for gm sedan vehicles.

Regarding epa bs, we all know the sky is the limit and the regulations are insane. There are so many other pollution factors that aren't addressed but the goal epa has is to kill small diesels... They invoke global warming or now, renamed under climate change, when it's known that co2 contributes at Green gasses (that help trees grow btw) and nox contributes to global cooling. And we don't live the times when stock diesels leave clouds of black smoke choking everybody on the road.

Edit: most issues with the 3.0 vm look to be due to oil cooler failures. Looks like the qc vm has failed in some engines leaving metal shards in the engine that would pierce the oil cooler walls leaving oil going into the coolant. This at least is the most common issues I've seen on ram 1500 diesel forum. I haven't heard about dropped valves but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

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 Post subject: Re: VM Motori 3.0L
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:08 am 
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thermorex wrote:

Edit: most issues with the 3.0 vm look to be due to oil cooler failures. Looks like the qc vm has failed in some engines leaving metal shards in the engine that would pierce the oil cooler walls leaving oil going into the coolant. This at least is the most common issues I've seen on ram 1500 diesel forum. I haven't heard about dropped valves but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.


just to add to this thread i have seen quite a number of failed 3.0 due to the fuel system. Mostly early models. There was some issue with the CP4 and its main shaft not being machined properly. Metal fillings from the worn shaft then travelled across the entire fuel system resulting in injector fault. Not knoving the failure at the beginning a lot of dealers replaced just the injectors under warranty and they had the same issue after a while. ENTIRE fuel system needed to be replaced.
But seems to be fine for now.

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