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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Sir Sam wrote:
I'm on board with checking the FQS (Fuel Quantity Solenoid aka mprop aka metering valve).

Disconnect it. Now the CP3 should have full flow out when cranking. Now put your cup under the output line from the CP3 and check flow. Lets see what that does.

http://www.idparts.com/high-pressure-fu ... -4591.html


If the FQS is STICKING, then unplugging it may not do anything and I may be getting lots of return.
What I think I will do with this is to check BOTH the HP output, and the LP return line. I'll pull off the QD fitting from the 4 way and
see what comes out.


Here is what I am thinking-
If I get more fuel from the HP line and not much from the return, then the HP pump is flowing but not providing pressure.

If I get little fuel from the HP line and lots of fuel in the return, then the FQS is bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:59 pm 
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LOL now you're jumping ahead but on the right track.

Quote:
If the FQS is STICKING, then unplugging it may not do anything and I may be getting lots of return.

Exactly my approach all along. This is what we need to know at this time.

Quote:
What I think I will do with this is to check BOTH the HP output, and the LP return line.

Well it's either going one place or the other.

What we need to know if it's currently CAPABLE (not sticking) of sending full flow up the HP line to the rail.

If it is, then neither the CP3 Nor the FQS is at fault. But we don't know that for sure yet.

If it's not, then 1) whatever fuel is going through is definitely going back the return. 2) the problem may or may not be a stuck FQS (could be electrical) I don't recommend that approach because it gives 2 places fuel could come shooting out rather than just one. You only need one, because if it's not going there, then it's going the other way, and the HP line is the one we're currently concerned about. (And it's easier to get at)

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:59 pm 
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BTW, if you change the valve only, are there just those three torx screws to remove? I think MAYBE I could get those out without taking more than the alternator out, but it would be tight. I might have to take the air intake elbow off, and that is a PITA.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:02 pm 
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I thought the MPROP connector was at the back of the valve cover next to Injector #4? It was common that people got them mixed up and their Jeeps would not fire.

If you want to unplug the MPROP, then what is being unplugged down below the alternator?

Not following what has been done exactly.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:06 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
LOL now you're jumping ahead but on the right track.

Quote:
If the FQS is STICKING, then unplugging it may not do anything and I may be getting lots of return.

Exactly my approach all along. This is what we need to know at this time.

Quote:
What I think I will do with this is to check BOTH the HP output, and the LP return line.

Well it's either going one place or the other.

What we need to know if it's currently CAPABLE (not sticking) of sending full flow up the HP line to the rail.

If it is, then neither the CP3 Nor the FQS is at fault. But we don't know that for sure yet.

If it's not, then 1) whatever fuel is going through is definitely going back the return. 2) the problem may or may not be a stuck FQS (could be electrical) I don't recommend that approach because it gives 2 places fuel could come shooting out rather than just one. You only need one, because if it's not going there, then it's going the other way, and the HP line is the one we're currently concerned about. (And it's easier to get at)


With respect, I DO know that the high pressure assembly is NOT presently providing sufficient high pressure fuel, and I do KNOW that when the FQS was unplugged the last time that this did not provide sufficient high pressure fuel.

In fact, there may not be fuel going out EITHER of the outputs, which is why I am going to check both. If I'm not getting fuel out of either port, then either the pump is bad OR the line between the pump and the filter head is bad. What brings this to mind is the water pump Sir Sam had that was spinning.....

LMW

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Correct.
Only 3 torx screws.

Also if you DO remove it and decide to try cleaning it DON'T use any kind of solvent. Use ONLY finely filtered diesel, or Power Service Diesel Kleen or something equivalent.
No brakeleen, no injector cleaner, no carb cleaner, no gasoline, or anything similar.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:14 pm 
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WolverineFW wrote:
I thought the MPROP connector was at the back of the valve cover next to Injector #4? It was common that people got them mixed up and their Jeeps would not fire.

If you want to unplug the MPROP, then what is being unplugged down below the alternator?

Not following what has been done exactly.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk


As regards what I have done to date, see above.

I am being asked to once again unplug the CP3 (high pressure pump) fuel flow regulator valve, located under the alternator.
If this valve is not sticking, and the pump is working, then I should see copious fuel flow on the high pressure line to the rail.

if this valve IS sticking, and the pump is working, then I will see copious flow on the LP return outlet going back to the fuel tank.

Whether or not the valve sticks, if I see low flow on both outlets, then I have the rare circumstance of having a HP pump problem.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on the flow regulator valve being bad, but this time I want a definite answer. No betting. I am getting facts.

LMW

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:18 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
Correct.
Only 3 torx screws.

Also if you DO remove it and decide to try cleaning it DON'T use any kind of solvent. Use ONLY finely filtered diesel, or Power Service Diesel Kleen or something equivalent.
No brakeleen, no injector cleaner, no carb cleaner, no gasoline, or anything similar.


OK, thanks for this tip, and the input to date. Much appreciated!

LMW

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1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:20 pm 
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If I can get to this tomorrow, will post updates in the evening. If not, then it will be a bit.

Many thanks to everyone who pitched in, Merry 9th day of Christmastide and Happy New Year to all!


LMW

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:26 pm 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Correct.
Only 3 torx screws.

Also if you DO remove it and decide to try cleaning it DON'T use any kind of solvent. Use ONLY finely filtered diesel, or Power Service Diesel Kleen or something equivalent.
No brakeleen, no injector cleaner, no carb cleaner, no gasoline, or anything similar.


OK, thanks for this tip, and the input to date. Much appreciated!

LMW

Be advised, its a total pain getting the fqs removed.
I reccomend removing the alternator and possibly the intake elbow.
The three torx screws are hidden behind a bracket.
Be gentle so you dont strip the heads of the screws.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:31 pm 
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WolverineFW wrote:
I thought the MPROP connector was at the back of the valve cover next to Injector #4? It was common that people got them mixed up and their Jeeps would not fire.

If you want to unplug the MPROP, then what is being unplugged down below the alternator?

Not following what has been done exactly.


MPROP = Metering Proportioning = Fuel Quantity = Flow Control etc. (servo - valve - actuator etc)
This servo controls volume out of the HP side of the CP3. What doesn't come out here, goes out the low pressure side.
It works together with the Pressure Control Valve at the rear of the rail, to control rail pressure at the current specific requirements, as determined by ECM programming. (which controls both)
Fuel Quantity Valve (on CP3) controls (restricts) volume into the fuel rail.
Pressure Control Valve (at rear of fuel rail) controls (releases) excess volume (overpressure) out.
Fuel Pressure Solenoid (Middle of rail, kinda hanging over intake) Is the device the ECM uses to continuously monitor what is happening and make it's decisions.

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Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:34 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
LMWatBullRun wrote:
GordnadoCRD wrote:
Correct.
Only 3 torx screws.

Also if you DO remove it and decide to try cleaning it DON'T use any kind of solvent. Use ONLY finely filtered diesel, or Power Service Diesel Kleen or something equivalent.
No brakeleen, no injector cleaner, no carb cleaner, no gasoline, or anything similar.


OK, thanks for this tip, and the input to date. Much appreciated!

LMW

Be advised, its a total pain getting the fqs removed.
I reccomend removing the alternator and possibly the intake elbow.
The three torx screws are hidden behind a bracket.
Be gentle so you dont strip the heads of the screws.


I have never done it, but I did look at my spare engine this evening to familiarize myself with the location. Thanks for the tip-
See y'all later, it's past my bed-time!

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1983 Volvo D24T
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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:10 pm 
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OK. So I finally had time and weather to get to The Test.

The Test is-

remove the high pressure connection to the fuel rail and place a hose over it to check fluid volume;

unplug the pressure solenoid on the CP3;

Crank for 15 seconds

15 seconds of cranking with a heated block and freshly charged battery yielded a bit more diesel than last test, but nowhere near what the low-pressure in-tank pump provides-
about 3/8" of diesel on the bottom of a cottage cheese container. What is the nominal throughput of the CP3 pump?

Or, put another way-
How much fuel would a good pump pump if the fuel pump would pump fuel? :)

Edited to add- I went back and asked the DW to crank it while I watched with the HP line reconnected to the rail, and I got a dribble of return from the injectors, none from the rail pressure regulator, but there was enough return from the CP3 solenoid regulator that it overflowed and was leaking out the connections for the injector return and the hose for the rail return.

I think it is the CP3 pump regulator solenoid, and will replace that.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:22 pm 
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I dont know exactly what the volume or pressure should be for that kind of test.

So, what was the pressure like?
It should be fairly high. Like at least 100psi I think.

It will never put out the volume being fed to it from the in tank pump. Injection pressure is what gets the engine running.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:26 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
I dont know exactly what the volume or pressure should be for that kind of test.

So, what was the pressure like?
It should be fairly high. Like at least 100psi I think.

It will never put out the volume being fed to it from the in tank pump. Injection pressure is what gets the engine running.

return pressure was very low, but there was enough fuel coming back from the CP3 pump for it to run out the fitting.I'm thinking the solenoid is bad.

LMW

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:39 pm 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
I dont know exactly what the volume or pressure should be for that kind of test.

So, what was the pressure like?
It should be fairly high. Like at least 100psi I think.

It will never put out the volume being fed to it from the in tank pump. Injection pressure is what gets the engine running.

return pressure was very low, but there was enough fuel coming back from the CP3 pump for it to run out the fitting.I'm thinking the solenoid is bad.

LMW

Huh?
I thought you were testing fuel output from the pump to the rail?
Pump return pressure will naturally be very low.
Output to the rail should be very high.

Without actually removing the injection pump and sending to a qualified shop for testing, the only thing you can do is replace the fuel quantity solenoid. Which is definitely worth a shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:32 pm 
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well i think one of many ,,, easy ways to do this and avoid guessing , is SEND INJECTORS TO BOSCH FOR TESTING , and yes there are plenty tests that don't need special tools , but people don't want to try them , again fuel injection shop is your best friend in order to diagnose and test your fuel system .


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:48 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
LMWatBullRun wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
I dont know exactly what the volume or pressure should be for that kind of test.

So, what was the pressure like?
It should be fairly high. Like at least 100psi I think.

It will never put out the volume being fed to it from the in tank pump. Injection pressure is what gets the engine running.

return pressure was very low, but there was enough fuel coming back from the CP3 pump for it to run out the fitting.I'm thinking the solenoid is bad.

LMW

Huh?
I thought you were testing fuel output from the pump to the rail?
Pump return pressure will naturally be very low.
Output to the rail should be very high.

Without actually removing the injection pump and sending to a qualified shop for testing, the only thing you can do is replace the fuel quantity solenoid. Which is definitely worth a shot.


I was, and I did. Fuel volume was a little higher but not very high; as stated, about 3/8 " in a cottage cheese container after about 15 seconds cranking. I had my wife do it again and noticed a large amount of fuel coming from the CP3 return, with no return from the injectors and no return from the pressure regulator on the rail. I have swapped fuel regulators with a used spare and when I get time and weather I'll put it all back together and see if that works. That regulator valve is a real PITA to get at; I am VERY glad I invested in some small fine tooth 1/4 drive ratchets.

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2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
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Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:44 am 
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OK.

Replaced the FQS at the CP3.

No joy.

Now that I have 1) time and 2) warmer weather today and 3) no rain, i need to check the electricals.
What voltages should I be reading at the connectors to each of the two critical sensors?

Thanks in advance!

LMW

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2005 Liberty CRD- ARP studs, Fumoto, Hayden FC, inline Tstat, ETechno 7v GP, Platinum P1, in-tank lift pump.
1983 Volvo D24T
1981 Volvo D24
Dodge Cummins TD
Case 580B
Mitsubishi MT180 diesel
Kubota BX25 diesel


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:55 pm 
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This is sounding more and more like you may have a buggered CP3. If so, yours would be only the 5th one that I have heard about. It does seem like you have isolated the pump effectively though. The last engine that I assembled, I forgot the rail pressure sensor plug when connecting everything, so the ECM couldn't know what the pressure was in the rail. From what I understand of the programming, that means the computer should have dropped to a default setting (it did) and set a code (it did) and while the engine would start and run, it idled like crap... But smoothed out quite readily above idle.

If it is refusing to start at all and spinning the pump manually with a drill (timing belt off) doesn't deliver staggering amounts of fuel to the rail... I think you have a pump issue. The default / relaxed position of the MPROP should be to shunt *all* of the fuel to the rail when the pump rotates without the computer active. That is how I purge the air so they start after reassembly, and I get a firehose of fuel after about 3-5 seconds spinning the cog. Then another 5 seconds (usually) with the starter, and vroom.

I have at least one pump sitting in the garage if you want to try swapping the whole thing - it is a bit of a bugger to get it out (try to avoid removing the bracket) but it can be done in the body.

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