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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:19 pm 
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OK. Before embarking on electrical measurements and fault tracing, which looks like a royal PITA, I decided to check the total outflow of fuel versus the input with the FQS unplugged. When I did that, there was about 50-60% of the fuel on the return side from all sources, compared to the input. Fuel is coming in but all of it is NOT going back out. I was getting low pressure fault codes but nothing else. rail pressure shows low.

So I plug the #2 injector spot on the rail, and voila! it starts. Shut it off, put everything back together, replace the #2 injector and it starts, but it is missing and running rough. idle is about 800 rpm. Injector #2 looks really cruddy when I pull it, very wet and the tip is caked with crud. No impact damage noted. Note- there was NO CODE on this before now. I did have a code on #1, and I previously pulled that injector and everything looked fine. I pulled the wiring connector to #2 and there was no difference in the running; pulled #1 and it tried to start but would not run. Changed the #2 injector AGAIN, still rough running, still no difference if I pull the plug.


Fault codes are-
P0100 mass or volume air flow
P0102 low input air flow circuit
P0202 injector circuit #2
P0304 cylinder 4 misfire

My thinking is that I may have an electrical fault, or faults, on the control wires to the injectors, mice maybe. Thoughts?
Suggestions on how to proceed?

How do you check the injector electrical connections?

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:13 pm 
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don't get me wrong , i say that all 4 injectors must go to BOSCH for testing , but before they go , you need to do comprassion test and clean injector cups , once we know this is 100 % good then we can chase wires and plugs and ecm pins ,


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:14 pm 
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hey LMW seriously I'm saying it because i was on shop floor before i seen lot of truck engines with problems , but that why i say fuel injection shops are trained to do this and detect and repair problems like this , and believe me i come across good and bad ones … and i see your point been afraid of them testing your equipment ,


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:34 pm 
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rankom wrote:
don't get me wrong , i say that all 4 injectors must go to BOSCH for testing , but before they go , you need to do comprassion test and clean injector cups , once we know this is 100 % good then we can chase wires and plugs and ecm pins ,

I have a total of 15 known good injectors. I don't need to spend $200 or $300 per injector for something I already have. I have switched injectors twice, and it is clear that the two injectors switched DO NOT leak, as the rail pressurizes just fine, and the engine is running on at least two cylinders. It is possible that the two used replacements don't open as they should, but I doubt that I'd get two bad ones in a row when the first one from that batch worked fine.

So, back to MY question which is, how do you check the wiring for an injector? Does anyone know?

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:46 pm 
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15 injectors in stock ? how much ? if i need one ?usually they are about 450$


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:02 am 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:
So, back to MY question which is, how do you check the wiring for an injector? Does anyone know?

I would disconnect the battery, pull up the connector pinouts (section 8W-80 in the service manual), and then connect a multimeter across an injector pin and its corresponding PCM pin and test for continuity. Also test for short to ground or +12v.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:36 am 
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[quote="geordi"]This is sounding more and more like you may have a buggered CP3.

X2 on this. Your output from the CP3 pump to the cottage cheese container sounds to low to feed the injectors, rail, etc.
Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:41 pm 
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LMWatBullRun wrote:
So I plug the #2 injector spot on the rail, and voila! it starts. Shut it off, put everything back together, replace the #2 injector and it starts, but it is missing and running rough. idle is about 800 rpm.
Out of curiosity, what's your rail pressure when it's running?


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:18 am 
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rankom wrote:
15 injectors in stock ? how much ? if i need one ?usually they are about 450$

I'm not planning on selling any at this time; I have 2 engines to rebuild and I'll need 8 for those two, plus I want spares.
If that changes, folks on this board will know first.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:58 pm 
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So, I went out to check on milady's CRD, and it is running better. Did not do anything except let it marinate for a week, which may have loosened up the stored injector that is in # 2.

Anyway, idle was smooth at 760 rpm, give or take, and I got the following data from Torque-

MAF- 2.4 g/s

rail pressure (varied a lot) from 5300 to 6500 psi (+/-)

Fuel flow 5.7 cc/min

At 1800 rpm, the fuel pressure varied from just under 10,000 psi to about 11,300 psi

So I took it out for a 4 mile test run, and let it warm up. After that, while I was going full bore up a steep incline, it quit.
No warning, just stopped, with one brief attempt to run when the engine was almost stopped.
Put it in neutral and it fired right up as if it had never quit, but the override for the overdrive needed to be reset.

Got back to the house and checked the fuel pressure and it was lower, from around 4700 psi to maybe 5100.
Pressure at 1800 rpm was also lower, from 8300 to 9600 psi.

Codes-
P0202
P0093
p0102
P0304
P1261
I'm getting codes for #2 and #4, but the idle is NOW smooth.

Is it possible I have a bad CP3 pump? What should the fuel pressure be?

LMW

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:11 pm
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i know lot if time I'm over reacting when it comes to FUEL SYSTEM ON DIESEL ENGINE , but seriously i know it is hard to find good and friendly diesel fuel injection shop . they are in business to make money and don't like to educate people like us , because they need to invest lot of money in there training and testing equipment ,speaking from my experience , i had to learn the hard way but i did like to share my experience , lot of fuel injection techs don't , so you have to paid them bottom line .but also there are good guys in that field to , you just need time and patience to find them , when comes to fuel pumps and injectors i call DAVE diesel in Brampton ON or NORTHERN diesel in Michigan USA , I'm sure there are others like OREGON fuel guys , I'm not going to name bad guys that cheating with testing common rail injectors with old school techniques , no value to nothing no print out report what they did or what they test it ? so good luck and find good fuel shop and get your pump and injector test it properly PLEASE.


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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:07 pm
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Reading through your post I was leaning towards failing pressure control valve (solenoid on the back of the fuel rail) until you listed these codes, which sound like something electrical.
LMWatBullRun wrote:
P0202 - Injector Circuit Malfunction - Cylinder 2
P0093 - Fuel System Leak Detected - Large Leak (i.e. unable to build up sufficient fuel pressure in the rail)
P0102 - Mass or Volume Air Flow Circuit Low Input
P0304 - Cylinder 4 Misfire Detected
P1261 - Glow Plug #1 Control Circuit Low
from what I've read, P0093 is a symptom of a failing/failed fuel pressure control valve but can be caused by other things as well
P0202 sounds like some kind of wiring problem, and P0102 and P1261 imply wires shorted to ground
not sure where P0304 comes in; that's more of a symptom of any number of things


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 Post subject: Was Quit Running not Starting, now Running but limps and qui
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:57 pm 
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OooohKay.
thinking this might be electrical connections, I took the ECU connectors both off and shot them with electrical cleaner, cycled them while wet, let them dry, and the Jeep seemed to be running a bit smoother. It ran OK on short runs around the house, no codes, no issues except one instance where I was going up a very steep incline (~15 degrees) and when I accelerated it quit. Just quit. Splah. Shift into neutral, restarts and goes on up the hill no problem. Ran it for a few days on short trips, no problem. :BANANA: This is good!

So I decide that I am going to drive the Jeep to work and back and see what it does. :ALONE:

Very interesting. At some point along the way, the Jeep went into some sort of limp mode. No power; would barely accelerate, but no missing or rough running, just no power. I was afraid to shut it off on the way in, so I just ran it like that for at least 30 miles. :banghead: Parked it, and it restarted immediately. So I went in to work. About 9 hours later, came out to go home, started it, and voila! runs like a new jeep! For about 8 miles. Once it got good and warm, it went into limp mode again. No power. AND, when I really push on the accelerator, it quits. Splah. DRT. :furious: Shift to neutral and it restarts while coasting, back into drive and a few miles later, limp mode again. Again, if I push hard on the accelerator, it quits. This happened repeatedly over about 40 miles.

Next morning, fires right up and runs just fine, but I did NOT drive it to work. :lol:

So why would it go into limp mode like that after driving for 8 or 10 miles? I am truly baffled. Still more baffling is why it shuts off suddenly when I press the accelerator pedal. This rates about an 8 on my weird-shit-o-meter, and is truly some seriously weird doo doo. Bad injector, ok, I get that. Bad sensors, OK, I get that. But mysterious quitting and going into limp mode because it gets warm???? Really? The only code I get now is low air flow.

Advice from another poor person who has dealt with this much appreciated.

LMW

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:43 am
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I've had the limp mode and random dying issues.

Most of the time random dying is a fuel supply problem but it can also be electrical.
Unplugging and firmly reconnecting all four injector connections might fix that. I actually had to remove the rubber seal inside the connectors to get a good firm connection.

For me, limp mode was caused by problems at the fuel rail pressure sensor and the fuel quantity solenoid.
One time it went into limp mode and then died and would not restart. The only way I could get it to run was by unplugging the fuel quantity solenoid but then it would run in limp mode.

After replacing the pressure sensor and FQS and still having problems, I replaced the wire harness connectors. Since then I have had no more fuel system problems.

If you wind up replacing the pressure sensor connector I recommend also installing a Auto Meter fuel rail pressure gauge. It has been a valuable diagnostic tool for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:40 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
I've had the limp mode and random dying issues.

Most of the time random dying is a fuel supply problem but it can also be electrical.
Unplugging and firmly reconnecting all four injector connections might fix that. I actually had to remove the rubber seal inside the connectors to get a good firm connection.

For me, limp mode was caused by problems at the fuel rail pressure sensor and the fuel quantity solenoid.
One time it went into limp mode and then died and would not restart. The only way I could get it to run was by unplugging the fuel quantity solenoid but then it would run in limp mode.

After replacing the pressure sensor and FQS and still having problems, I replaced the wire harness connectors. Since then I have had no more fuel system problems.

If you wind up replacing the pressure sensor connector I recommend also installing a Auto Meter fuel rail pressure gauge. It has been a valuable diagnostic tool for me.


It may well come to replacing the connectors. I wonder what a replacement harness costs?

I have a mechanical pressure gage, just need to get the right nut and figure out how to install it on the rail, but I wonder if you have a source for the meter you suggest, Flash?

Thanks!
LMW

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:10 pm 
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You dont need to replace the entire harness. Just splice in new connectors.

You have a 30,000 psi mechanical fuel pressure gauge :shock: ???
I know that wasn't cheap and I dont know how to attach one to the rail.

This is the gauge I installed:
https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Meter-2693-Pressure-Gauge/dp/B003JZKWI8/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1488581626&sr=8-17&keywords=auto+meter+fuel+rail+pressure+gauge

Connector for fuel rail pressure sensor:
http://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/acdelco,PT2050,fuel+rail+pressure+sensor+connector,15717

Connector for FQS and injectors:
https://www.amazon.com/APDTY-Connector-Numerous-Components-Including/dp/B01HBXZ3NM/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1488582200&sr=1-2&keywords=PT2183

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:22 pm 
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LM I second the fuel rail pressure sensor connector being the cause of the problem. The wiring at that spot loosens from the connector due to the diesel rattle and shake.

The dealer replaced the connector and 12" of wire. Those wires at the back of the fuel rail, shake themselves loose from the diesel chatter.

I'd try replacing those first.

I since bolted down the plastic wire trough that's shaped like a "Y" above the injectors, to minimize the wiring harness from shaking itself loose again.

Happened more than once to other members of this forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:28 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
You dont need to replace the entire harness. Just splice in new connectors.

You have a 30,000 psi mechanical fuel pressure gauge :shock: ???
I know that wasn't cheap and I dont know how to attach one to the rail.



Thanks for the tip. So what makes it go into limp mode or shut off? momentary LOS from a sensor?

I picked up one on Ebay for about $75, and it is a 4" dial. My thought was to fab up a tee that I could run into the #1 injector takeoff point.

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1981 Volvo D24
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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Make sure you are using a fitting rated for 30,000 psi...

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

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 Post subject: Re: Quit running not starting
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:00 pm 
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yeah make sure , you stay away from high pressure when you do that test ! but i think ill go back and do a basic test 1st , get fuel container on passenger side floor hook up clear tube to FFilter and run that hill again . something is cutting your fuel supply ?


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