Yet another Cold Start thread

jksuperstar · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:48 pm

My '06 has it's second generation of 7v etechno glow plugs in it. I have a Green Diesel upgrade on the ECM, so I'm not looking to change to 5v in this vehicles lifetime.

This week's blast of clod temps in CO has me on my knees. Jeep wouldn't start at the airport, and though the airport gives free jumps, that little jump box they use was enough to turn it over, but not enough to fire up.
After a tow truck visit, I eventually got it started, but it took LOTS of turns (fingers crossed for my starter) plus some starter fluid and MAF cleaner to make it happen. By then I figured some fuel gelled in the lines, and future applications of ISO Heat will be necessary when the truck is left like that again.

But the vehicle is still hard to start in cold temps, sometimes even when it's plugged in for an hour before starting it. (For my daily commute, it's plugged into a timer to run for 3hours before I leave). Despite what I read about 7v metallic GPs not being great, they should still work better than what I've seen (which is cold starts degrading year after year, often taking 4-5 attempts now without the heater plugged in). Wondering if I should replace:
GP controller (any thoughts on the ID parts 5v/7v controller?)
A temp sensor somewhere...That might get the GP hotter for longer? Just a guess...
Something else?

I have no codes right now, but that doesn't mean something is wearing down/out. The GPs were installed last winter.

Any help is appreciated.

olypopper · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:16 pm

My best recommendation for reliable cold weather starting is a quality battery with lot's of CCA's (more than minimum required), install a new glow plug harness and relay can't hurt on a rig that's ten years old, block off the radiator/grill for warmer operation and it'll help hold in residual heat when not running.

I take my mechanical fan off in the winter, run a complete winter front over the grill and I use the block heater, wolverine oil pan and transmission pan heaters for oil and transmission. I was originally interested in one of Weeks intake heater element kits but my little jeep doesn't give any problems starting so haven't needed it yet.

Just thinking out loud here but have you replaced the fuel filter head? Cold temps caused mine to fail and induce air.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:39 pm

I kinda noticed the same thing with mine lately. I put it on a block heater for 1.5 hrs or so before the wife heads to work and the couple of times I checked it with torque pro the coolant was up to 35C/95F. You would think it would be enough to start it easily but it still takes a few extra cranks. I really think its just that the air coming in is still cold and maybe the fuel being thicker.

Are you getting a big puff of smoke after the long cranking sessions? That's usually a sign that the fuel is getting to the cylinder but not lighting off and leaving as a vapor/mist. Mine will do this when its really cold and cranks for a while. If you are not getting this then maybe you are not getting the fuel to the cylinder? Do you have a lift pump? I would suggest one as it will push the fuel to the HPFP so even if it is cold and thickens up the HPFP wont have to struggle to suck it through the filter and fuel lines. It will also "eliminate" any leak points where the HPFP could be sucking air in which would be exacerbated with the thickened fuel. The lift pump may cause fuel leaks since the system is now pressurized but then you at least know where they are and can fix them.

jksuperstar · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:43 pm

Thanks for the list to walk through!

Sounds like for the GPs I should start at the relay, and then consider harness and controller next. I was wondering if the controller or harness would effect the glow plug performance, or if they would simply work or fail.

The filter head is the 2nd gen type, and the filter has maybe 10k max on it. In the middle of jumping it, I bled it out (tiny amount of air) and pumped the pressure up. So I don't think it's leaking, at least not in a bad way (I've had that experience).

I do get a BIG cloud sometimes, depending on how long it cranks before firing. I don't have a lift pump, that might have saved me a lot of trouble over the years though.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:51 pm

olypopper wrote:

My best recommendation for reliable cold weather starting is a quality battery with lot's of CCA's (more than minimum required), install a new glow plug harness and relay can't hurt on a rig that's ten years old, block off the radiator/grill for warmer operation and it'll help hold in residual heat when not running.

I take my mechanical fan off in the winter, run a complete winter front over the grill and I use the block heater, wolverine oil pan and transmission pan heaters for oil and transmission. I was originally interested in one of Weeks intake heater element kits but my little jeep doesn't give any problems starting so haven't needed it yet.

Just thinking out loud here but have you replaced the fuel filter head? Cold temps caused mine to fail and induce air.

One thing I would say on the fan removal is that if you are climbing long, steep grades it may not cut it. I took my fan off a few weeks back and it was over heating here in Utah. I ended up putting the electric fan/shroud I had put together this summer in and that keeps it cool enough and doesnt turn on till it needs too so warm up in the mornings has been faster. OP, if you are crusing around Denver and not going up to the mtns then you are probably fine with no fan but if you are gunna go climb I-70 up to Eisenhower or something then you may need it.

jksuperstar · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:39 pm

Does the lift pump kick on along with GP and fuel heater? (I've read the harness is there for the pump, just no pump in the tank, so I'm curious how the prewired harness works).

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:50 pm

The pump will turn on when you turn the key on.
And will keep running as long as the engine is running.
If you dont start the engine right away, it will turn off after a few seconds. Then turn back on once the engine starts.

racertracer · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:23 pm

A fouled cylinder chamber will prevent a good firing.

A fouled fuel injector will create a hard to start condition.

I found that cleaning the above with MMO will quickly change the hard to start condition. A good clean chamber will facilitate the firing up.

Mine fires right up in cold weather without being plugged in.

I just received my new set of authentic 5v Bosch metal glow plugs from Europe and will be installing them when i have some free time. The Etecnos willbe gone

33.74 pound sterling (41.62 US Dollars) delivered to my address in the states, ..... 15 days delivery time from England and includes 5.00 dollars delivery charge.

Code 0250402003-GS Product 1x Bosch Sheathed Element Glow Plug 0250402003 - Qty 4

The Green Spark Plug Co Ltd (Parent Company of) Car Spark Plugs & Motorcycle Spark Plugs

thermorex · **Posted:** Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:23 pm

I also have the etecno 7V and they kinda suck in cold weather. I also have weeks101 intake heater and that does help big time when it's below 10F. Still, I need about 3-5 sec crank to start and I see a small-medium white smoke out of the tail pipe. I'd recommend weeks101 intake heater but you need a really good battery. I have 2 optimas 800cca on mine so I don't have to worry about running out of juice but I'd be weary just using one. In Cleveland area, we rarely get below 10F, so I barely "have to" use the intake heater. If you do get the heater, make sure you install a buzzer to prevent accidentally turning it on.

jksuperstar · **Posted:** Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:17 am

The tow truck driver recommended BK44G recently to clean out injectors, as we were talking about fuel additives to prevent gelling. He swears by it. I've done the liquimoly diesel cleaning to my golf TDI before (disconnect fuel line and dip it into a bottle then run to flush). But doing a big purge to my CRD seems immenint.

3-5 seconds would be wonderful in this weather.

I let the glow plugs go for 30seconds, then cycle through key out, glow plugs on for a few seconds, then turn over for several seconds, and repeat from key out again, until it starts. That's usually 4-5 attempts.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:26 pm

I think the BG44 stuff is for gasoline engines.
I recommend PowerService (white bottle for winter) because its easy to find at any autoparts store or walmart.

I dont have a problem with cold weather starting so I use PowerService in the gray bottle year round.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:48 pm

jksuperstar wrote:

The tow truck driver recommended BK44G recently to clean out injectors, as we were talking about fuel additives to prevent gelling. He swears by it. I've done the liquimoly diesel cleaning to my golf TDI before (disconnect fuel line and dip it into a bottle then run to flush). But doing a big purge to my CRD seems immenint.
3-5 seconds would be wonderful in this weather.
I let the glow plugs go for 30seconds, then cycle through key out, glow plugs on for a few seconds, then turn over for several seconds, and repeat from key out again, until it starts. That's usually 4-5 attempts.

BK44G is for Gasoline engines, NOT diesel engines!!!!
The correct product from this company for diesel engine fuel cleaner is: BG 244®

To view all their diesel fuel additive products go here. > https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/diesel-fuel-system/

Bushman5 · **Joined:** Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:05 am **Posts:** 276

Use PowerService (white bottle ) in winter . Grey bottle the rest of the year

Effortless starts up here in Canada.

Also when was the last time you replaced your CPS (crank position sensor)? Could be the issue

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:13 am

Power Service (Diesel Kleen) is Great stuff! All I have ever used in both my CRD Jeep and Dodge Cummins Diesels....

jksuperstar · **Posted:** Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:08 pm

I do have both grey & white bottles of PowerKlean, just stopped using it as religiously. I still think a 1 time treatment will do good, followed by more regular use of PowerKlean.

My CPS was replaced about two years ago, after having serious issues with the engine simply dieing when coming to a red light. between that and the original fuel filter, I almost quit this Jeep. It took some serious debugging to figure that one out at the time, as it was so intermittent.

I'll drop in new relays today, and keep up with the winter Power Kleen until more parts arrive. If this doesn't improve, I might also check the fuel quantity solenoid, as I've heard that can prevent fuel pressure from building up properly during cranking.

Thanks all for sharing your experiences.

mass-hole · **Posted:** Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:47 pm

jksuperstar wrote:

I do have both grey & white bottles of PowerKlean, just stopped using it as religiously. I still think a 1 time treatment will do good, followed by more regular use of PowerKlean.

My CPS was replaced about two years ago, after having serious issues with the engine simply dieing when coming to a red light. between that and the original fuel filter, I almost quit this Jeep. It took some serious debugging to figure that one out at the time, as it was so intermittent.

I'll drop in new relays today, and keep up with the winter Power Kleen until more parts arrive. If this doesn't improve, I might also check the fuel quantity solenoid, as I've heard that can prevent fuel pressure from building up properly during cranking.

Thanks all for sharing your experiences.

If you have torque pro, or can get it, you should be able to monitor rail pressure while cranking. Its pretty high, mean several thousand psi so it should be pretty obvious if you are not getting fuel.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:38 pm

Yes.

You are right about power service.

Here is what to use and I have done it successfully.

1. http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/index.php/site/mmo/
use one quart of Marvel Mystery Oil at fill up and do it for two consecutive fill ups or drive the vehicle for 1200 miles with the Marvel Mystery Oil in the tank.

2. http://crcindustries.com/auto/?s=05316
In addition, add one can of CRC Motor treatment in your fuel tank if your injectors have never been cleaned.

After doing this procedure, you will notice a less noisy engine, with reduced chatter and faster cold starts. It takes a few fill ups to notice a difference.

But once your injectors, valve guides, valve stems, cylinder walls and rings are cleaned of varnish and soot, you will notice a smoother running, softer sounding little diesel that you will not recognise.

jksuperstar · **Posted:** Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:44 pm

mass-hole wrote:

jksuperstar wrote:

I do have both grey & white bottles of PowerKlean, just stopped using it as religiously. I still think a 1 time treatment will do good, followed by more regular use of PowerKlean.

My CPS was replaced about two years ago, after having serious issues with the engine simply dieing when coming to a red light. between that and the original fuel filter, I almost quit this Jeep. It took some serious debugging to figure that one out at the time, as it was so intermittent.

I'll drop in new relays today, and keep up with the winter Power Kleen until more parts arrive. If this doesn't improve, I might also check the fuel quantity solenoid, as I've heard that can prevent fuel pressure from building up properly during cranking.

Thanks all for sharing your experiences.

If you have torque pro, or can get it, you should be able to monitor rail pressure while cranking. Its pretty high, mean several thousand psi so it should be pretty obvious if you are not getting fuel.

I just bought a cheap-shit bluetooth OBD tester, and it works with Torque (the free version). Do you use Torque pro on Android?

jksuperstar · **Posted:** Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:02 am

And my update so far:

I am running White-bottle Power Klean, and ran some Lucas Oil snake oil/injector cleaner through it. I never see any issues on acceleration nor deceleration, so I don't think my injectors have any leaks or issues. There's also no black nor white cloud during heavy acceleration.

I did replace the Glow Plug Relay/Controller, and while I was in there, I felt the fuel heater wires (well, the connector inline with the wires) get REALLY hot to the touch. I pulled that apart and found the connection was corroded, so stripped & soldered & sealed it back together...no more heat, so my guess is the fuel heater should be a bit more efficient now. After these two things, I've noticed my >32deg starts have improved greatly. Still rough below that. I have a new GP harness in hand, that'll just take a warmer day and more time to install than I've had recently.

I am also not sure there is any air in the lines (I need to check, but using logic...) my issue now only occurs in below freezing temps, and I get no sputters or loss of power, as if air was there, especially when hitting the pedal hard, as I do at least once a week just to blow out the turbo. I have experienced the old fuel filter head unit in it's full range of effects (from slight sputtering to a flat out stall in front of a semi while climbing Vail Pass), and see no symptoms here.

I'll take the torque pro tip, and see if I can monitor the fuel rail pressure, as it's (in my mind) the most likely place for an issue now...I've read elsewhere that the Fuel Control Solenoid (goes by as many names as a GP relay) can show symptoms at low temps.

I'll report back....

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:07 pm

What kind of fuel are you using? Blended, or straight #1? Hopefully not #2.

I'm still running the stock 7V ceramic GP's and I can cold start reliably down to -15°F. Used to have trouble below 0°F back when I had a flooded Interstate battery, but haven't had any issues since upgrading to a Sears Die Hard Platinum (850 CCA AGM).

You can certainly switch to the Mopar 5V plugs with a GDE tune, they offer a reflash for a minimal fee to update the tune to 5V.

Yet another Cold Start thread

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