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COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85954		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  cevans [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
This year we've seen more CRDs than normal exhibit poor (terrible) cold starting. My 2005 has been giving me trouble for years, and I have the 5V programming with Bosch plugs, so based on my experience I discourage customers from making the 5V switch for the purpose of better starting. It is time to make a serious effort to put this issue to bed once and for all.

Please answer the poll below. There are 4 options, 2 for each type of steel glow plug and 2 for a rating of starting performance "fine/terrible". If you would, please also reply with any changes you made to your vehicle that dramatically improved starting.

IMPORTANT: PLEASE BASE YOUR STARTING RATING AFTER SITTING OVERNIGHT AT 20-25 DEGREES (these things start fine over 30 typically, and once you reach low teens or single digits you should be using your heater anyway)

There is not an option for 7V ceramic since those are generally understood to be the best starting...and best engine killing plugs.

(we KNOW Webastos help, for all you lucky people out there, don't remind us! :P :P :P )
Author:  jrsavoie [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
There also seems to be quite a few people out there running 5 volt glow plugs on the 7 volt tune - I would be one of those.

I've been doing it for about 40,000 miles. Unknowingly for 30,000 of those miles
Author:  cevans [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
jrsavoie wrote:
There also seems to be quite a few people out there running 5 volt glow plugs on the 7 volt tune - I would be one of those.

I've been doing it for about 40,000 miles. Unknowingly for 30,000 of those miles


Awesome, thanks for the addition, I added that option to the poll. How does it work?
Author:  Sir Sam [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
2005 with 5V bosch plugs on what I think is 7V programming. Issues starting below about 25 degrees(have to hold the key on to keep cranking for 15-20 seconds or during bursts of 15-20 seconds).

2006 with 5V bosch plugs on what should be 5V programming. Same starting behavior and temperatures.
Author:  Ceearedeedriver [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
I think starting performance varies a lot from vehicle to vehicle for a number of reasons and trying to correlate performance to a particular glowplug setup is potentially going to lead us to the wrong conclusion. Ideally we need to try the different options in a problematic starter to see which, if any, gives the best performance. Cevans, I don't think you should be writing off the 5V plugs without also trying the Etecno's. I suspect you might have issues with both.

But for sure it is a lot easier to develop a well behaved system around a programmable element that can be tuned to the glow plug than try to design glow plug that will work in an existing system. As far as I'm aware a metal sheathed plug simply cannot heat up as quickly as a ceramic plug so original 7V programming is never going to be optimal for the Etecno plugs. Is it good enough? I don't know.

Something else to consider. Running 5V plugs with the GDE tune? Not sure if their algorithm is the same as the official Chrysler programming. Maybe we need to separate 5V Chrysler and 5V GDE? Maybe GDE can comment on whether they developed their own programming for these plugs?

I'm currently running 7V ceramic but will install 5V Bosch with 7V programming soon. I don't mind then trying the GDE 5V tune to make a direct comparison on a vehicle with known starting performance.
Author:  joelukex4 [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
When are you going to change out your ceramic glow plugs? Are you going to do it when you get your first glow plug fault code or just going to change them? I have seen pictures on here of people who have changed their plugs because of fear of plug failure when they looked perfectly fine. The current thought process is to change immediately when a glow plug fault is experienced. Otherwise I realize we are playing Russian roulette. I plug in as often as possible to minimize the stress on the glow plugs. The engine always starts quickly with no issues.

I still have the original ceramic glow plugs and will replace with a new set as soon as I receive a fault code. The big question is whether to replace just one or all the plugs.
Author:  CGman [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
2006 - GDE Eco tune, intank pump, good battery and 7V Etecno plugs. Starts fine down to upper twenties okay, below that I would always want it plugged in or I'm crossing my fingers. All my other diesels (including 3 cyl Yanmar tractor engine) start better than this thing when no block heater is used. Next worst is the Yanmar (no block heater), then the Ford 6.0L (picky injectors?), then the VW 2.0TDI and the best by far is the Dodge 5.9L.
Author:  joelukex4 [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
The Dodge 5.9L Cummins has an intake heater which is the best thing going for it.
Author:  rcdukes [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
2006 with GDE Eco tune. New 5v Bosch. Recent cold weather has me satisfied with the starting of my CRD. High teens, low twenties and it stated fine. It took 5-10 seconds of cranking but fired up without the block heater.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Author:  geordi [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
From what I have heard so far, I am not impressed with the 7 V program and the 7 V plugs. I am willing to try the 5 V plugs with the current program, but I am leaning more towards the in-tank fuel pump and diesel powered heater, because plugging in is not an option for everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  jrsavoie [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
cevans wrote:
jrsavoie wrote:
There also seems to be quite a few people out there running 5 volt glow plugs on the 7 volt tune - I would be one of those.

I've been doing it for about 40,000 miles. Unknowingly for 30,000 of those miles


Awesome, thanks for the addition, I added that option to the poll. How does it work?


From what others say and from my experience it seems like the best option.

Some have said that it results in shorter glow plug life, but I do not know if they are talking from real life experience or hypothesizing.
Author:  jrsavoie [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
joelukex4 wrote:
When are you going to change out your ceramic glow plugs? Are you going to do it when you get your first glow plug fault code or just going to change them? I have seen pictures on here of people who have changed their plugs because of fear of plug failure when they looked perfectly fine. The current thought process is to change immediately when a glow plug fault is experienced. Otherwise I realize we are playing Russian roulette. I plug in as often as possible to minimize the stress on the glow plugs. The engine always starts quickly with no issues.

I still have the original ceramic glow plugs and will replace with a new set as soon as I receive a fault code. The big question is whether to replace just one or all the plugs.


That is quite a gamble being the potential resulting loss if you lose the bet
Author:  Ceearedeedriver [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
joelukex4 wrote:
When are you going to change out your ceramic glow plugs? Are you going to do it when you get your first glow plug fault code or just going to change them?

Probably early March unless I get a code in the meantime. I use it very little over winter so will probably end up changing them out proactively.
Author:  cevans [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
Ceearedeedriver wrote:
I think starting performance varies a lot from vehicle to vehicle for a number of reasons and trying to correlate performance to a particular glowplug setup is potentially going to lead us to the wrong conclusion. Ideally we need to try the different options in a problematic starter to see which, if any, gives the best performance. Cevans, I don't think you should be writing off the 5V plugs without also trying the Etecno's. I suspect you might have issues with both.

But for sure it is a lot easier to develop a well behaved system around a programmable element that can be tuned to the glow plug than try to design glow plug that will work in an existing system. As far as I'm aware a metal sheathed plug simply cannot heat up as quickly as a ceramic plug so original 7V programming is never going to be optimal for the Etecno plugs. Is it good enough? I don't know.

Something else to consider. Running 5V plugs with the GDE tune? Not sure if their algorithm is the same as the official Chrysler programming. Maybe we need to separate 5V Chrysler and 5V GDE? Maybe GDE can comment on whether they developed their own programming for these plugs?

I'm currently running 7V ceramic but will install 5V Bosch with 7V programming soon. I don't mind then trying the GDE 5V tune to make a direct comparison on a vehicle with known starting performance.


Ceearedeedriver - thank you for the great feedback.

My thoughts are similar to yours. My intention with this poll isn't to determine which combination is *best* for cold starting. It is actually to confirm my current belief that the cold starting issues are not strictly glow plug related. I have spoken with thousands of CRD owners and worked on a few dozen with different 5V/7V combinations, none of which were great. Some cars started fine, some were terrible.

This poll and thread was spurred on by a customer who was strongly convinced that going to 5V plugs would solve his cold starting issues. I told him that my CRD with 5V was terrible, but, he wasn't convinced and is going to proceed with the 5V swap. I'm concerned he will discover that his cold starting is just as bad with the 5V plugs.

So, back to your point, I'd like to conclude that the 5V/7V issue is a red herring and that the actual cold start issue is due to something else. I *think* I may be on to something, actually, as I've put my Jeep through some odd tests and have discovered some very interesting behavior, which includes but is not limited to the fact that it starts GREAT at the end of a 8 hours work day, even when in the teens. To be sure the block has fully cooled down and there isn't any leftover heat, but, I can always get home from work no problem. Mornings are the worst. This suggests to me that there is something else going on...
Author:  geordi [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
Sunlight - at the end of a long day, even in the teens... Your CRD has been sitting in the sun and the under-hood temps are likely still higher than the outside environment even by just a few degrees.

The difference overnight is absolutely no solar warming, so the cold-soaking is more complete and probably a couple hours longer as well.
Author:  cevans [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
geordi wrote:
Sunlight - at the end of a long day, even in the teens... Your CRD has been sitting in the sun and the under-hood temps are likely still higher than the outside environment even by just a few degrees.

The difference overnight is absolutely no solar warming, so the cold-soaking is more complete and probably a couple hours longer as well.


Sunlight in the winter in New England? Have you BEEN in the north during the winter!? :-)
Author:  geordi [ Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
Ok, fair point... But there is still more sunlight than there is at 3am!
Author:  thermorex [ Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
cevans wrote:
geordi wrote:
Sunlight - at the end of a long day, even in the teens... Your CRD has been sitting in the sun and the under-hood temps are likely still higher than the outside environment even by just a few degrees.

The difference overnight is absolutely no solar warming, so the cold-soaking is more complete and probably a couple hours longer as well.


Sunlight in the winter in New England? Have you BEEN in the north during the winter!? :-)

He's right. Even if it's just overcast. If your vehicle is dark, it sucks heat. I see one side of the snow on my truck that's parked outside in the driveway melting away and one side not, and that's even when it's not very sunny.

On a side note, you may have more sun than us here in Cleveland... At least in the winter.
Author:  Ceearedeedriver [ Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
cevans wrote:
I'd like to conclude that the 5V/7V issue is a red herring and that the actual cold start issue is due to something else. I *think* I may be on to something, actually, as I've put my Jeep through some odd tests and have discovered some very interesting behavior, which includes but is not limited to the fact that it starts GREAT at the end of a 8 hours work day, even when in the teens. To be sure the block has fully cooled down and there isn't any leftover heat, but, I can always get home from work no problem. Mornings are the worst. This suggests to me that there is something else going on...

I'm sure the glow plugs do play a part but there are clearly vehicles out there that are simply bad starters, like yours? Mine has always started easily with the ceramics so I don't expect a huge difference when I install the 5V plugs except maybe some performance drop off at the extreme.

To come to any sort of conclusion about what part the glow plugs play, if any, we really need to ask what observations were made when the glow plugs were changed?
- What glow plugs did you have previously?
- What starting performance did you get with these plugs?
- Were there any codes?
- What glow plugs do you have now?
- What starting performance do you get with the new plugs?
Author:  thermorex [ Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: COLD START GLOW PLUG RESEARCH - I NEED YOUR FEEDBACK
I had no issues starting in the winter with the ceramics. I replaced them in the summer years ago with metallic etecnos. Next winter I realized it started harder even in the garage, but not hard-hard, 2-3 seconds of crank on 40-ish degrees vs one before.

If weather is below 10F, it may need about 5 secs of crank. Sometimes I let the glow plugs cycle twice. So there is definitely a difference in start.

I then installed weeks101 intake heater. That helped cold starts quite a lot. 1-2 minutes of heater on and starts easy. I also have 2 batteries so I have plenty power.
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