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5V Glow Plugs
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86001		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Jsamps1345 [ Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  5V Glow Plugs
Does anyone know which plug is better for 5V? I see ID parts has both Bosch 5V and Etechno 5V. Im looking to replace mine now and i have the 5v programming

http://www.idparts.com/glow-plug-set-5v ... -3369.html

http://www.idparts.com/glow-plug-set-5v ... -6013.html
Author:  mass-hole [ Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
Hmmm, I've never heard of the etechno 5V plugs.
Author:  geordi [ Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
Neither have I. Looks like it is a new product offering, I wonder what the lifespan would be if we start using those on a 7v program. I'm willing to sacrifice some plug longevity in exchange for a quicker / easier winter startup. I'm sure most would be.
Author:  Ceearedeedriver [ Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
They have been around for at least four years. The 5V and 7V are supposedly the same part with a different part # stumped on it viewtopic.php?p=817625&sid=6cef3cb6913ed6e94b474d34d49b433e#p817625

Of course, the same plug can't both be optimal with both 5V and 7V programming. At least one of the applications offer compromised performance.
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
The Bosch 5v glow plugs are the best alternative for the factory 7v ceramic glow plugs. The Etecno plugs are not optimized for this application.
Author:  geordi [ Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
Hey Keith - Any thoughts on the survival rate / lifespan for the Bosch 5v on the stock 7v program?
Author:  Ceearedeedriver [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
Hey Keith - What's the difference between the 5V option you have for your tune and what a Chrysler dealer would provide? Have you done your own optimization?
Author:  jrsavoie [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The Bosch 5v glow plugs are the best alternative for the factory 7v ceramic glow plugs. The Etecno plugs are not optimized for this application.


Are the Bosch 5 volt glow plugs self limiting?
Author:  Ceearedeedriver [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
jrsavoie wrote:
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The Bosch 5v glow plugs are the best alternative for the factory 7v ceramic glow plugs. The Etecno plugs are not optimized for this application.


Are the Bosch 5 volt glow plugs self limiting?


I think he's suggesting the 5V plugs with a proper 5V tune which would mean either his or the Chrysler one.

All dual coil plugs are self regulating to a degree but I believe this feature is more intended for the pre-glow phase which for the 7V factory tune is too short for the metal sheathed plugs anyway.
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
We do not change the glow logic for 5 or 7 volt. We just put in the chrysler tune logic for 5 or 7 volt as the customer requests. We default to whatever is in the stock tune and 9 times out of 10 it is the factory 7 volt stuff. Very dangerous to change the glow duty cycle without and instrumented glow plug as it is very easy to pop these things due to over temp. Chrysler and Etecno did not want to provide us instrumented plugs for testing and optimization...so that never happened. An instrumented plug might run about $5000 and we certainly don't have any skin in the game per se to build these on our own.
Author:  geordi [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
That is unfortunate that they didn't want to play with you.

So any thoughts about if the 5v Bosch will run hotter and survive the 7v program?
Author:  WWDiesel [ Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
We do not change the glow logic for 5 or 7 volt. We just put in the chrysler tune logic for 5 or 7 volt as the customer requests. We default to whatever is in the stock tune and 9 times out of 10 it is the factory 7 volt stuff.

Can you explain the difference between the 5 or 7 volt logic? Is it the amount of time the ECM pulses the voltage to the GP's or does the ECM actually limit the peak voltage it applies via the module to the GP's or both. I am sure there are many on this forum that would love to have some basic understanding of the intricate differences between how the ECM programs handle the different GP voltages if you can share that information... :wink:
Many on here would be most grateful!
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
There are several calibration changes for the 5v GP logic vs. 7v. Keep in mind, companies like GM, FCA, etc. have a dedicated engineer working solely on the glow system for their career, so it is not a trivial task. There are several stages for glow control depending on many factors like coolant temp, ambient temp, altitude, rpm, fuel, battery voltage, etc. There is a pre-glow, intermediate glow, start glow, readiness glow, and post glow. Being a PWM system, the maps correlate to a duty cycle to give a nominal voltage. You need an oscilloscope to properly measure the functionality. Each stage has different duty cycle outputs for the 5 volts, some are single values and others are 3-d maps. There are also conversions for voltage drop that feed into the system as well. I personally would not mess with the settings in the glow system.

The main reason the start ability is hurt with metallic glow plugs is the design of the combustion chamber. The layout has the tip of the glow plug splitting the gap between two orifices of the injector nozzle, so the fuel sprays on each side of the glow plug. This is correct for a ceramic plug where you do not want the spray to impinge in the tip. On a metallic plug, since they are not as hot, it would be better to have a nozzle orifice spraying closer/inline with the glow tip. This requires a new cylinder head design to be optimized and that is just not feasible.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
There are several calibration changes for the 5v GP logic vs. 7v. Keep in mind, companies like GM, FCA, etc. have a dedicated engineer working solely on the glow system for their career, so it is not a trivial task. There are several stages for glow control depending on many factors like coolant temp, ambient temp, altitude, rpm, fuel, battery voltage, etc. There is a pre-glow, intermediate glow, start glow, readiness glow, and post glow. Being a PWM system, the maps correlate to a duty cycle to give a nominal voltage. You need an oscilloscope to properly measure the functionality. Each stage has different duty cycle outputs for the 5 volts, some are single values and others are 3-d maps. There are also conversions for voltage drop that feed into the system as well. I personally would not mess with the settings in the glow system.

The main reason the start ability is hurt with metallic glow plugs is the design of the combustion chamber. The layout has the tip of the glow plug splitting the gap between two orifices of the injector nozzle, so the fuel sprays on each side of the glow plug. This is correct for a ceramic plug where you do not want the spray to impinge in the tip. On a metallic plug, since they are not as hot, it would be better to have a nozzle orifice spraying closer/inline with the glow tip. This requires a new cylinder head design to be optimized and that is just not feasible.

This is great information, thanks very much for sharing!
What is your opinion of people using the 5v GP's on the 7v programing as some are currently doing? Any dangers other than premature failure or a shorter lifespan overall? :roll:
I am sure some are on the fence so to speak and toying with the idea of installing the 5v GP's....
Author:  jrsavoie [ Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
WWDiesel wrote:
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
There are several calibration changes for the 5v GP logic vs. 7v. Keep in mind, companies like GM, FCA, etc. have a dedicated engineer working solely on the glow system for their career, so it is not a trivial task. There are several stages for glow control depending on many factors like coolant temp, ambient temp, altitude, rpm, fuel, battery voltage, etc. There is a pre-glow, intermediate glow, start glow, readiness glow, and post glow. Being a PWM system, the maps correlate to a duty cycle to give a nominal voltage. You need an oscilloscope to properly measure the functionality. Each stage has different duty cycle outputs for the 5 volts, some are single values and others are 3-d maps. There are also conversions for voltage drop that feed into the system as well. I personally would not mess with the settings in the glow system.

The main reason the start ability is hurt with metallic glow plugs is the design of the combustion chamber. The layout has the tip of the glow plug splitting the gap between two orifices of the injector nozzle, so the fuel sprays on each side of the glow plug. This is correct for a ceramic plug where you do not want the spray to impinge in the tip. On a metallic plug, since they are not as hot, it would be better to have a nozzle orifice spraying closer/inline with the glow tip. This requires a new cylinder head design to be optimized and that is just not feasible.

This is great information, thanks very much for sharing!
What is your opinion of people using the 5v GP's on the 7v programing as some are currently doing? Any dangers other than premature failure or a shorter lifespan overall? :roll:
I am sure some are on the fence so to speak and toying with the idea of installing the 5v GP's....


I have been running 5 volt glow plugs on the 7 volt Green Eco tune for about 40,000 miles. 30,000 miles of which I didn't know. Then I finally pulled a glow plug to see what I had.

I ordered the 7 volt upgrade, but have never installed it.

I am also wondering what the possible bad ramifications of running like this might be

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85977&p=905268#p905268
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
For inquiring minds who would like to know a little basic info on what a PWM System is, like the one used on our Jeep CRD's to control the voltage and the amount of heating time at the Glow Plug Tips! Reading this along with what GDE supplied may help with understanding why the programing and / or maps contained in the programing in the PCM for the GP's is relevant.
:SOMBRERO:

*Understanding a PWM system:
Pulse-width modulation (PWM), is a modulation technique used to control of the power supplied to electrical devices, especially to inertial loads.
The average value of voltage (and current) fed to the load is controlled by turning the switch between supply and load on and off at a fast rate. The longer the switch is on compared to the off periods, the higher the total power (voltage) supplied to the load.
The PWM switching frequency has to be much higher than what would affect the load (the device that uses the power), which is to say that the resultant waveform perceived by the load must be as smooth as possible. The rate (or frequency) at which the power supply must switch can vary greatly depending on load and application
The term duty cycle describes the proportion of 'ON' time to the regular interval or 'period' of time; a low duty cycle corresponds to low power, because the power is off for most of the time. Duty cycle is expressed in percent, 100% being fully on.
*some text from Wikipedia
Author:  taroo [ Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The Bosch 5v glow plugs are the best alternative for the factory 7v ceramic glow plugs. The Etecno plugs are not optimized for this application.


So I have the GDE tune. Will it be okay to install the Bosch 5v glow plugs as is since you suggest them for this application?
Author:  GreenDieselEngineering [ Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
taroo wrote:
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The Bosch 5v glow plugs are the best alternative for the factory 7v ceramic glow plugs. The Etecno plugs are not optimized for this application.


So I have the GDE tune. Will it be okay to install the Bosch 5v glow plugs as is since you suggest them for this application?



You will want the ecm glow logic in the tune to match the voltage of the glow plugs.
Author:  taroo [ Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
taroo wrote:
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The Bosch 5v glow plugs are the best alternative for the factory 7v ceramic glow plugs. The Etecno plugs are not optimized for this application.


So I have the GDE tune. Will it be okay to install the Bosch 5v glow plugs as is since you suggest them for this application?



You will want the ecm glow logic in the tune to match the voltage of the glow plugs.


Okaaayyy....so how do I get the correct ECM ecm glow logic? Since I have the GDE tune do I sent the programming unit back to you to update? Do I download it from you? Need some direction here if I decide to change. The 7v metal tips are crap for me even here in Virginia cold weather!!!!1
Author:  joe_ [ Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 5V Glow Plugs
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The main reason the start ability is hurt with metallic glow plugs is the design of the combustion chamber. The layout has the tip of the glow plug splitting the gap between two orifices of the injector nozzle, so the fuel sprays on each side of the glow plug. This is correct for a ceramic plug where you do not want the spray to impinge in the tip. On a metallic plug, since they are not as hot, it would be better to have a nozzle orifice spraying closer/inline with the glow tip. This requires a new cylinder head design to be optimized and that is just not feasible.
Would a more feasible solution would be different injectors with the tip rotated a few degrees from the current position so that one of the orifices is aligned with the glow plug? I may be oversimplifying it, but it seems like that would be much easier than redesigning the whole head to move the glow plug in line with one of the current injectors' orifices.
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