Pulled the Head.....Now What?

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:59 am

My last oil analysis came back with a small amount of coolant in the oil, so I started down the path of tearing down my engine. 152k on the odometer, I've owned it for the last 45k, so I'm assuming this is the first time the valve cover & head have been off. Here is what I found during the teardown:

- After pulling the timing belt I found the crank was still able to turn with the flywheel locking pin installed, does this mean I'm 180° off where I was supposed to be? Should I turn the crank 180° now before reinstalling the belt to get the locking pin to hold or will this mess up the fuel pump timing?
- The hex plug for the locking pins on my valve cover took a 5mm Allen wrench, strange because every write up listed them as 6mm.
- Two bad rockers, one was missing the roller pin (exhaust #3) and the other was very sloppy with needles moving around (exhaust #4). All of the other rockers (except two tight ones) had some minor play on the roller. A couple of the cam lobes will need to be polished up.
- From looking at the head gasket and top of the block, it appears coolant was seeping into the combustion chamber through the gasket, so I'm hoping new gasket will solve my issue.
- Original Ceramic glow plugs were still intact, but had problems with plug #2 stripping out (started easy but gained resistance after a few turns), will need to figure something out here, open to suggestions. :banghead:

- Most all of the head bolts came out with ~100-120 ft-lbs of torque.
- There was a good coating of sludge on the intake ports and on the FCV, but not as bad as some pics I've seen.
- Cylinders #1-#3 were pretty clean and shiny, but #4 had a more dull appearance to it, not sure if this could be an injector issue or if its related to the bad rockers, which is strange because the bad one from #3 was in worse shape than the bad one from #4.
- Should I consider replacing my exhaust valves (and intake as well)? I seen some recent chatter about valves breaking.

From here I'm planning on taking the head into a machine shop to do a pressure test. Will also look into getting my injectors tested. Will need to order parts and start putting everything back together. Along with head gasket looking at doing 5V steel glow plugs, new rockers, and ARP studs. I've been scanning old threads, but any advice on prep and reassembly would be greatly appreciated!

olypopper · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:07 am

Watch Sir Sams belt change on YouTube. It'll instruct you on position of the crankshaft via the four bolt holes in the crankshaft.

As far as the fuel pump timing goes, I've done 4 timing belt jobs on crd's and I don't even bother with it. No running difference noted and all owners have history with their vehicles. Pretty sure it's another one of those bs items from the original factory service manual that ends up being pointless.

Pressure test the head first and make your decision on what to do after that.

I hope you will be performing the Weeks delete kits while you've got this thing apart. Between that and the GDE tune my Jeep is like a different animal.

flman · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:47 am

The mark on the harmonic balancer should be at 3 o'clock looking at the front of the engine, that is when the pin should be ready to go in.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:53 am

Quote:

- After pulling the timing belt I found the crank was still able to turn with the flywheel locking pin installed, does this mean I'm 180° off where I was supposed to be? Should I turn the crank 180° now before reinstalling the belt to get the locking pin to hold or will this mess up the fuel pump timing?
If the cam pins went in normally, then the crank should have also been in time. Look at the bolt on the crankshaft. Immediately behind it is a washer with a timing mark on it. That mark should be parallel to the ground, at the 3:00 position, a.k.a. 90deg after top dead center.
If your crank pin does not lock the crank then your pin is either too short or your flexplate is messed up.

- The hex plug for the locking pins on my valve cover took a 5mm Allen wrench, strange because every write up listed them as 6mm.
No big deal. Whats 1mm between friends.

- From looking at the head gasket and top of the block, it appears coolant was seeping into the combustion chamber through the gasket, so I'm hoping new gasket will solve my issue.
Have a machine shop test the head for cracks.

- Original Ceramic glow plugs were still intact, but had problems with plug #2 stripping out (started easy but gained resistance after a few turns), will need to figure something out here, open to suggestions. :banghead:

Have the machine shop fix the glow plug threads.

- Cylinders #1-#3 were pretty clean and shiny, but #4 had a more dull appearance to it, not sure if this could be an injector issue or if its related to the bad rockers, which is strange because the bad one from #3 was in worse shape than the bad one from #4.
No big deal. Probably related to the rocker arm.

- Should I consider replacing my exhaust valves (and intake as well)? I seen some recent chatter about valves breaking.
Its your call. There have been several reports of broken exhaust valves causing catastrophic engine damage.

TerryZ91 · **Joined:** Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:21 pm **Posts:** 37

Just curious if you had any other symptoms than just coolant in the oil. With the two broken rocker arms, did you notice anything else as far as performance issue or hard start?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:15 pm

When reassembling, clean everything (as I'm sure you would anyway) and spray all 4 mating surfaces with Copper-Kote head gasket sealer. It is a spray can from Permatex that is in your local parts store in the sealant aisle. Spray the top of the block and the underside of the gasket - wait at least 5 minutes for it to set up - assemble the gasket onto the block, spray the top of the gasket and the bottom of the head and again wait.

Then install the head and you are ready to begin torquing the studs. Follow the factory pattern (image in the head stud research thread) and with the narrow threads of the studs, both sides of the washer and the face of the nut coated in ARP lube, assemble the nut and washer flush to the top of the studs. Thread them down hand-tight, then torque all to 80 lbs. Without removing, torque again to 100 lbs. For the third pass, loosen each one in turn and reset the nut back to flush with the top of the stud, and then torque to either 130 (inner rows, 1-10) or 120 (outer rows, 11-18) and that completes the head stud installation.

Seal the EGR port on the exhaust manifold before installing, much easier when not in the engine. If you are using the cap, coat it in copper RTV first before installing / clamping. Otherwise welding it shut is a popular option.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:44 pm

IMO. If you are going to get the head checked, and replace valves, and whatever......just consider a brand new head, I don't know what it will cost to have everything checked out, but if its comparable a new head might make sense.

That being said, we have seen valve failures on new heads.

Sure you could replace the valves, but new valves are not without failure either......dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

My overall opinion, clean the surfaces, new head gasket, arp studs, new rockers, timing belt kit, and put it back together and run it. If the machine shop work to check the head is not terribly expensive it may be good insurance. If it is approaching >50% the cost of a new head, just buy a new head.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:24 pm

New head is ~$1800... That is a LOT of machine shop work.

I haven't paid more than $100 for a machine shop checkout, but I'm also not having them do more than a hot tank cleaning and checking for flatness.

joe_ · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:34 pm

Sir Sam wrote:

That being said, we have seen valve failures on new heads.

Yikes, was there a failure on a new head? I do remember reading about a failure on a reman'd head which I would guess still had its original valves installed (probably just ground/lapped). I could be totally wrong about that though; I don't know exactly what goes into remanufacturing a head.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:19 pm

olypopper wrote:

I hope you will be performing the Weeks delete kits while you've got this thing apart. Between that and the GDE tune my Jeep is like a different animal.

Yes, I believe it would be easier to install the weeks kit than clean this out. FCV inlet was pretty clean though.

flman wrote:

The mark on the harmonic balancer should be at 3 o'clock looking at the front of the engine, that is when the pin should be ready to go in.

Looks like 3 o'clock to me. Not sure what's wrong with flex plate, had a Euro TC installed a few years back. I'm using the lock pin from IDParts' new timing belt tool kit, unless I have to screw it in further? A friend of mine changed my timing belt 45k ago and IIRC he said something about the flywheel pin not working for him either.

TerryZ91 wrote:

Just curious if you had any other symptoms than just coolant in the oil. With the two broken rocker arms, did you notice anything else as far as performance issue or hard start?

No noticeable performance difference, starts fine, although I'll see how it behaves when I get it back together. The coolant in the oil was apparently a small leak, my low coolant light did come on for the first time in November, I added ~1 qt and it hasn't dropped noticeably since then. I tried the coolant bottle pressure test and I wasn't getting any pressure build up, and my coolant was not visibly contaminated with oil. I was changing my oil at 6k intervals and all the previous oil samples came back squeaky clean, so it was a bummer when I got the report. I sent in another sample at 1k and it still showed coolant, just a smaller amount.

Sir Sam wrote:

IMO. If you are going to get the head checked, and replace valves, and whatever......just consider a brand new head, I don't know what it will cost to have everything checked out, but if its comparable a new head might make sense...............If it is approaching >50% the cost of a new head, just buy a new head.

Machine shop quoted me $37 for the pressure test and if it passes they can do a vacuum test. They said they typically recommend replacing the exhaust valves on diesel heads, they said $275 for the labor to swap (all?) the valves, plus parts. They hadn't seen a head from this engine before though. They're also going to tank clean the intake/valve cover. They didn't think too much of the condition of the exhaust cam lobes from the damaged rockers, pretty quick to say I needed to replace the exhaust cam, but I'm still waiting for their parts guys to get me a quote. I'm still going to see how the lobes clean up.

I also dropped my injectors off at the local Midland Diesel shop to be tested, they quoted me $25 per injector. They were very helpful, even did a quick once over on my turbo.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:42 am

Ya thats at 3 oclock. Even with that pin in you can rotate the crank a little, better to align by hand and then install the belt. Even the cams can have a fair bit of play in the locking pins. I recommend setting the cams by aligning the notches in the ends to face directly at each other. Its a goofy system and I a swear its a sort of italian (good-nuff) idea on the timing.

Ok so the head test is cheap, you never know with shops. I'm still not a fan of replacing the valves.

Can you post a picture of the cam lobes?

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:44 am

joe_ wrote:

Sir Sam wrote:

That being said, we have seen valve failures on new heads.

Yikes, was there a failure on a new head? I do remember reading about a failure on a reman'd head which I would guess still had its original valves installed (probably just ground/lapped). I could be totally wrong about that though; I don't know exactly what goes into remanufacturing a head.

Yes failure on all new head from idparts. Happened 6 months outside of Warranty time period. Sucks for that guy.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:43 am

Sir Sam wrote:

Can you post a picture of the cam lobes?

Will have to get a better pic next time I visit the machine shop, but here is a zoomed in one I took of the valve cover. Machine shop said the cam profile was wore down past the point where they'd grind it smooth, but the profile looked fine to me just had some nasty surface damage all the way around. Strange how the surface damage is pretty much in the middle of the lobe, not on the edges where the rocker arms would contact once the roller was gone, unless something got in there before/after the roller dropped out. Or this rocker didn't get proper lubrication which caused the failure?

Can I keep running with this cam, weather or not I clean up the lobe surface?

lacabrera · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:05 am

camshafts are surface hardened. The lobe with the broken rocker looks bad and I would say needs if possible reground and surface hardened to prevent premature wear.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:21 am

Quote:

Or this rocker didn't get proper lubrication which caused the failure?

Can I keep running with this cam, weather or not I clean up the lobe surface?

It seems that the roller bearing froze up which then lead to the wear on the cam lobe.
What oil were you using?

I would not reuse that camshaft. Grinding it smooth may change the lobe profile, which might change valve lash, which might lead to another rocker failure.

It not like the old SB Chevy where you could regrind the cam and install longer pushrods or adjust valve lash.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:14 am

If the rough area on the camshaft cannot be polished back to a very smooth surface matching the other lobes, it should not be reused! If you reuse it with a rough lobe, it will cause the roller on the new rocker to eventually fail... :roll:

If it were mine, and it could not be polished out, I definitely would replace the cam!!!!
You do not want to have to go back into the top end of the engine in the near future if it can be prevented... :wink:

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:53 am

Individual camshafts are not that expensive, and if you didn't want to go with one from ID Parts, used would be acceptable as long as it's not worn down. Because these are roller rockers they really should not be wearing unless something catastrophic happened.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:05 pm

flash7210 wrote:

What oil were you using?

Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 since I've owned it. Not sure about 1st 100k.

I won't be taking any chances on the cam, sounds like replacement is the way to go. Anyone have any good used ones?

Mountainman · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:10 pm

fool4wheelin wrote:

flash7210 wrote:

What oil were you using?

Mobil 1 TDT 5W-40 since I've owned it. Not sure about 1st 100k.

I won't be taking any chances on the cam, sounds like replacement is the way to go. Anyone have any good used ones?

I would put in a new set from ID parts. I've measured them after 180k miles and there was noticeable wear, not terrible, but I don't know if mismatching flow is a good idea with these fickle engines. I measure and match up sets of used ones myself that have similar wear. I pay $50 for used ones that are undamaged.

fool4wheelin · **Posted:** Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:28 pm

Pressure test results came back, leaky head. Somewhere between one of the intake feeds and the valve seat. Not looking forward to buying a new/reman head but might be a blessing in disguise.

I also got my injectors back, they ran fine for the most part, 3 out of the 4 had a little higher output at idle flow. When they cleaned up my injectors they also took off the markings I had on which cylinder they came out of, do they need to go back into the same position?

Pulled the Head.....Now What?

Who is online