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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:21 am 
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I'm not entirely sure what numbers I'm looking for here. With the ignition on but jeep not running I get 11.5 volts to the one side of the Fuel prop connector and like 3 something on the other. Both tested to ground. I'm trying to find the pin numbers so I can do an ohms test at the ecu plug so I can see what the resistance is with the connector plugged into the solenoid.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:18 pm 
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Success! I was looking at the wrong connector :dizzy: the one on the back of the injection pump wasn't plugged in all the way. Funny thing is once I got it all done and drove it for a bit all the codes cleared! Pretty sure the original noise was the harmonic balancer as suggested by jws84_02. New one is ordered. So this weekend I'm going to change that and the oil. SOOOO gotta say thanks to Sam for making the best youtube videos out there and IDparts for being the best place to get parts from! So anyone who reads this thread learn from my mistakes. I ended up spending a ton of money that I didn't need to BUT the jeep should be better than ever now. :rockon:


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:55 pm 
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Well after driving it all week catastrophe struck. Im at my wits end here. Been driving it to work with no issues whatsoever. Checking for leaks and finding none. So today (friday) i was on my way home from work. Needed fuel. Stopped and filled up. Started driving and went to merge on the highway. Just merged onto the highway and the jeep died. No sputter. Just died. I had my code reader with me. Read the codes and seen a bunch. Cleared codes and tried to restart. Would crank but no start. Checked codes again. This time only got 3. p0403 which is the egr code, p1140 which is the FCV code and p2294. From what i understand this is low pressure at the rail basically. So i called AAA got it home and started looking at it. Checked for air in the line. Primed it a couple times just to be sure. Pulled the fuel filter and dumped the fuel into a clear container. I thought it might not be a coincidence that i just got fuel and then the problem showed up. Fuel looked fine. Checked battery voltage. 12.30 and goes down to about 10.8 to 11 when cranking. Did a continuity test on the FQV and it tested ok. 12 volts to supply side of the connector for it and stayed solid as well. Loosened fuel rail nut. Pressure is low. So its def a pressure issue. Theres no way its enough to open the injectors. So im thinking either the CP3 pump somehow died.....which seems very unlikely....or the FQV is not working right. It wont start with or without the FQV plugged in. Just cranks but no fire. If it weren't for the low pressure id think CPS. I pulled out the FQV but im not sure how to test it. it Ohmed out at 3.1 ohms. continuity across was there too. I've read that the thing operates by PWM. so i don't know if theres even a way to bench test the thing. Blowing through the "nipple" part of it with my mouth and it seems open which is believe is it's normal state. Any help here? I'm getting to the point of selling this thing. It's causing nothing but problems between me and the wife. It was running fine until today. No issues but i've only put about 200 miles or so on it since i replaced the head, timing belt etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:12 pm 
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One thing I've done more reading one but am confused about. Maybe i'm stupid here but as far as purging the high pressure side of things.....i assume the air probably would have showed up sooner right? I mean i drove it for a while with no issues but hey if i'm to "truly" purge the high pressure side i need to turn the fuel pump pulley? I'm not sure what's meant by this or where this is exactly. the cp3 pulley is under all the timing cover stuff obviously so is there something im missing here or misunderstanding?


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:45 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
P2294 still points to an open or a intermittent connection at the FQS at the back of the CP3

If it were me I would check the plug again, and if it is still tightly connected, and the wire terminals tight in the plug, I would begin tracing the wires from the plug, back to the main loom, and proceed backwards up to the top of the engine, to the rear of the engine, and back behind the fuel filter head to the ecm, just to make sure there is no point that the wires are broken or grounded.

Edit: The weird thing is, even if the FQS were unplugged you should have fuel pressure. In fact, over-pressure, requiring the Fuel presssure relief valve at the back of the rail to dump fuel.

The valve at the rear of the rail is the one that will immediately stop your engine if it comes unplugged.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:25 am 
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A couple other things to note that I forgot to type up. I'm still pretty frazzled. When the Jeep first died and I checked codes I noticed the p0093 which I believe is labeled large fuel leak. Once I cleared that it did not return. The Jeep has a newer style fuel head and heater that I out on a few months back. However when I first got it home and popped the hood to check the prime at the fuel head I got quite a bit of air and there was evidence of fuel residue on the fuel heater puck itself. However after pulling the filter and checking and replacing it still wouldn't start. From what I've read you need to crank it for a while which I can't say I cranked it over for a long time but for more than a couple seconds.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:20 am 
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Listen to Gordon, he is quite the expert on these fuel sensors since he battled with his before figuring out his problem! :wink:
He can guide you as to how to check the connectors / circuits and read the pertinent wiring all the way back to the OBC pins for continuity and resistance using a digital ohm meter...

Your P2294 DTC is the key! Apparently with this code the OBC will not let the engine run, so this one must be found and repaired.
DTC Description: Fuel Pressure (Regulator 2) Control Circuit
normally start with a visual inspection of system wiring and connectors; focusing attention on harnesses and connectors on the engine.

Some of the Potential causes for this code can be:
    Shorted or open wiring and/or connectors in the fuel pressure regulator control circuit
    Defective fuel pressure regulator
    Faulty fuel rail pressure sensor
    Bad PCM

These are the items that control the fuel rail pressure via the OBC, so all connections and circuits to them must be intact with NO broken wires or shorts! :roll:

Jeep CRD Fuel Pressure Control Items
    1. Fuel Pressure Regulator: (Also called by some as: *Fuel Quality Solenoid) Located on back of CP3 fuel injection pump. Controls the amount of fuel being pumped to the fuel rail, excess is returned back to fuel tank and the flow also helps cool the CP3 internally. 05159962AA
    2. Fuel Pressure Solenoid: Located on the rear of the fuel rail. Controls fuel rail pressure. 05159964AA
    3. Fuel Pressure Sensor: Located on side of fuel rail. Tells ECM the fuel rail pressure and ECM in turn controls the rail pressure using items 1 & 2. 68020556AA ; 05159963AA
    -------*Note: Sometimes you will see these items called by other names, but these are the correct nomenclatures used by Mopar.


:SOMBRERO:

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Last edited by WWDiesel on Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:35 am 
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What has me puzzled is the fact that it wont start. If it would start but be in limp mode i'd say the fuel quantity solenoid for sure. I need to pull the return line and crank it and see if im dumping fuel back to the tank or not....then check the injectors i suppose. For some reason its not building pressure in the rail. Either air, bad fuel pressure solenoid at the back of the rail or a bad injector. I'm at work and can't work on it til this afternoon but I'm seriously open to any ideas. I'm really considering getting rid of this jeep if i can't get it fixed...heck i may even if i do. One other question is this.....could there be a bad enough leak at the fuel head to basically cause this thing to never build pressure? I can bleed it to the head just fine....but maybe the leak is bad enough that the CP3 pump can't siphon well enough? Its the new style head but seeing the fuel residue on the filter and heater leaves me skeptical the more i think about it. I have the old fuel head....maybe i'll throw it back on just to test it. It never gave me issues...i just replaced it to be proactive.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:07 pm 
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If you can pump up the fuel head till it is good and hard, then there should be plenty of fuel available for the CP3 to pump up the HP to the rail.
If this is the case, I would not waste time installing the old filter head!

Another left field thought! Have you tried a new fuel filter, since it quit right after filling with fuel and are you sure it is diesel fuel.
Maybe a stupid thought, but fuel stations have been know to dispense bad fuel or even worse dumping gas into their diesel tank... :shock:

My understanding is that if you unplug the Fuel Quality Solenoid (Fuel Pressure Regulator) on the back of the CP3 injection pump, it will deliver all fuel to the fuel rail and the Fuel Pressure Solenoid at the rear of the fuel rail will control the rail pressure and allow the engine to least start.

Possible culprits that could cause a low fuel rail pressure situation:
    1. Fuel Pressure Regulator on back of CP3 injection pump
    2. CP3 Injection pump failed
    3. Fuel Pressure Solenoid on end of fuel rail
    4. Fuel Pressure Sensor on side of fuel rail. (tells ECM what fuel pressure is and ECM in turn operates items 1 & 3 above to control rail pressure)
    5. Bad injector dumping way to much fuel to return system or into engine and not allowing rail pressure to build
    6. No fuel to suction of CP3 injection pump (air in fuel suction line or system)

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Pretty much the list you stated is where im at....the only issue i'm finding is and maybe someone can correct me here....is there a good electrical way to test these solenoids specifically the quantity and pressure ones? I'd rather not throw parts at it....and i really dont want to throw an injection pump at it considering i just got done doing the timing belt. I do agree that if im getting fuel to the head itself and its not losing prime at some crazy rate that it should be enough to get the thing to start. The fuel i dumped out of the filter looked fine to me....maybe ill get a picture for you guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Irocelectric93 wrote:
Pretty much the list you stated is where im at....the only issue i'm finding is and maybe someone can correct me here....is there a good electrical way to test these solenoids specifically the quantity and pressure ones? I'd rather not throw parts at it....and i really dont want to throw an injection pump at it considering i just got done doing the timing belt. I do agree that if im getting fuel to the head itself and its not losing prime at some crazy rate that it should be enough to get the thing to start. The fuel i dumped out of the filter looked fine to me....maybe ill get a picture for you guys.

Injection pump failures are extremely rare!
Could be the fuel pressure regulator on the back of the CP3 is stuck open dumping all fuel to the return line?

As to checks & tests, PM GordnadoCRD (Gordon) he has been down this road!!! :wink:

Also read through this thread, kinda long but has lots of good info on how to check fuel components... :roll:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85741

You got to rule out all components first before pointing a finger at the CP3!

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:45 pm 
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I couldn't agree more. I dont have alot of faith in it being the CP3 pump. which is in fact a good thing! i just need to get off work so i can get back to work on this thing. Thanks for the replies and keep the ideas coming.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:51 pm 
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I'm finding P2295 listed as "Fuel Pressure Solenoid Short To Ground". Also they list different connectors for "Fuel Pressure Solenoid" and "Fuel Quantity Solenoid". If the Fuel Quantity Solenoid is the one on the back of the CP3, then I think the wiring shorted to ground is for the solenoid at the back of the fuel rail. Makes sense, too, because that solenoid fails open, meaning without a proper electrical connections, all of the fuel is going to flow right out the back of the rail to the fuel return without building up any rail pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:39 pm 
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The code it is throwing is a p2294. So far I've gotten back to it and I put the FQS back in place and put things back together to troubleshoot it better. I removed the line coming off the fuel bridge for the return. I removed the lowest line which would I assume show me if the FQS was stuck for some reason. Long story short I did get some fuel out of the line. I made a little bucket to catch the fuel and its about the size of a sour cream container. After cranking for about 3 or 4 seconds the bottom it full plus a little more. So correct me if I'm wrong here but this is pointing to a bad FQV. I still need to test the line right off the rail which I also assume if it does not have fuel come out then I can assume that the Fuel pressure solenoid at the back of the rail is working properly but the FQS is stuck in whatever position and allowing too much return to build rail pressure. Also to note I tried this with the FQS in both a plugged in state and un plugged state and both tests yielded the exact same results.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:24 pm 
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Ok so test part 2. I disconnected the line off of the fuel rail itself and reconnected the return from the cp3 pump. I did two start attempts one cranking for almost 10 second straight and the other for about half that. on both tests I got a very small amount of fuel in my cup. I assume that when people say no fuel coming out of that fuel rail during cranking means just that. I don't believe the fuel pressure regulator on the rail is bad. I know it gets switched power and uses a magnet to close the return off and the fuel pressure overcomes the magnet from what I understand so cycling power you probably will have a little fuel come out but you just don't want it during cranking correct? If I am right about this then id say my FQS is bad or dirty and is in a stuck position.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:50 pm 
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Irocelectric93 wrote:
The code it is throwing is a p2294.
Whoops, sorry about that. Saw 2295 mentioned in another post and went with it. P2294 is "Fuel Pressure Solenoid Open Circuit", which again, I'm pretty sure is referring to the solenoid on the back of the fuel rail rather than the fuel quantity solenoid on the back of the CP3.

One thing you could do is disconnect the line that goes from the CP3 to the fuel rail and let that dump into a container while you crank it for a few seconds. If very little fuel (or no fuel) comes out, your FQS may be stuck. If a decent amount of fuel pours out, then something downstream of there is preventing the pressure from building up.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:03 pm 
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This post may be helpful also:

(note: he mentions using ether, which I've generally heard is not recommended due to the possibility of the glow plugs igniting it)
bigbillyboy wrote:
Sorry for the delay, work has been busy.
I'm not going to guarantee this is the approved troubleshooting method, but it worked for me.

First thing I did was upgeade filterhead and install lift pump to ensure no air in fuel. Once I was. Positive there was no air in the system, I followed the following diagnostics, which was a mixture of info from many different sources

Following a suggestion from the guys at the cummins commonrail forums, I shot a little either into the intake and cranked it over. Doing this, the liberty started and ran fine. Under heavy load conditions, the jeep would defalt to limp mode, but it would still run.

Next step was to take off the fuel return rail and check for excessive retuen from one or several injectors. After removing the fuel rail, (keep it in one piece and be very gentle with the plastic fittings that clip into the top of the injector. If you break one, you get to buy the whole fuel rail for $45.00 - ask me how I know. Also, don't drop any of the clips, as they are dealer only for $50/ea, and not available locally...) I insterted a 5" long piece of clear vinyl tubing into the top of each of the injectors. I cranked for 10 seconds and looked at the levels in each tube. They were all at the same level, and about 1/4" up the tube. Which is normal. If one or more is significantly higher ( I read that it could be 3-4 inches of fuel after 10 second of cranking) then you have a failed injector preventing rail pressure buildup. This was not the case for me. Also, don't break the plastic fuel return junction (where all three fuel return lines join up) before heading to the tank, as it is dealer only and runs $97 and not available for a week. I built one out of brass fittings from home depot for about $20. Much sturdier.

Next, I reinstalled the fuel return rail, and pulled the line off of the pressure control valve at the rear of the fuel rail. I cranked for 10 seconds and had a significant amount of fuel drain out. While cranking, but not running, this valve should be held shut preventing fuel from flowing at all. In my case, the valve had failed, once replaced, the jeep started easily.

It is my understanding that if the PCV had been good, the only thing that could cause low pressure would be the CP3 pump. From my reading, the pump itself rarely fails, but the MPROP valve bolted to it fails regularly.

I was able to give the part number off the PCV to a local diesel shop and they had the part next day for $449. The dealer was a week out and $849.

I tested the components in this order as it was the best way I could figure out to determine with the highest degree of certainty which component had failed without buying needless expensive components.

Fyi, that PCV valve is a very complex item. It is a normally closed valve. It is held shut with a spring, but gets additional closing force from an electromagnet. The spring itself does not provide enough force to get the rail pressure above 5000psi. The ECM varies the current to the PCV, the higher the current, the more closing force, and the higher rail pressure. Somehow this works in balance with the ECM sending a signal to the MPROP valve which both maintain predetermined rail pressure.

Hope this helps someone.
source: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86113&p=648881#p648881


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Bah the saga continues. Well I borrowed a scanner from a friend of a friend. After cranking for about 10 seconds the pressure sensor is only showing about 253 psi. I disconnected the line from the CP3 pump to the rail and turned it over for again almost 10 seconds and got very little fuel out of it. I tried this with the FQS plugged and unplugged with no change. So now I'm thinking maybe the pump itself did go bad. Now why it went bad all at once I have no clue. I'm not saying that's it for certain. Too many people it seems like have replaced it without fixing the issue. I spoke with my father because the jeep is currently parked in his garage. I had left the FQS sitting out from working on it last night and apparently he bench tested it with a battery charger and says it clicked and seemed like it was working. I didn't personally see it though. So once again its most likely one of two issues the cp3 pump or the FQS. Does anyone have anything for me? I'm not very happy at the moment and I'm done working on it for the evening.


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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:17 pm 
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You may want to consider buying one of these
https://oregonfuelinjection.com/shop/jeep-diesel/2005-2006-2-8-l-jeep-liberty-diesel/fuel-rail-exchange-jeep-liberty/

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 Post subject: Re: Trying to figure out what this noise is
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Im not so sure its the regulator at the back of the rail. I will re test everything again tomorrow to be certain. Im not replacing the cp3 pump until i basically have no other option. Remember that this thing just died while getting on the highway for what thats worth. No prior issues with starting or anything but the low low rail pressure isn't very re assuring and the fuel coming from the return too. Like i said ill re test tomorrow. I'll probably even take a video or two for you guys to see and for those in the future who might run into this as well.


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