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Engine Problems and Starting Problems
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86252		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  apesofdoom [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Engine Problems and Starting Problems
Hello everyone and thank you for taking the time reading this.

I have a 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD auto and about a month a go I was driving and took an clover leaf off ramp and hit a packed patch of ice with full time 4WD engaged. It bounce all over and when I got off the ice is when all my troubles started.

The engine stared shaking really bad, a very loud knock or banging, Tons of black smoke and soot, and a huge loss in power. the engine still ran and I had no warning light turn on. I drove about a 1/4 mile to get to a parking lot where I could check it out. I popped the hood to look for anything that popped louse or out of place and found nothing. I turned it off and when I turned it back on it had a really hard time starting but I could still get it started. So I drove it another 3 miles to get it back home and nothing new popped up, no lights or anything. When I got back home I went online and started researching.

later in the day I come back out and after the engine has cooled down, and I have a new problem now. Now I cant Get it started, but its kinda strange. So I can hear the Bendix pop out and it does turn the engine... a little, then the Bendix pops back and just spin the starter. I keep trying but no change. Battery is about 2 years old but has a full charge.

The next step I took was to make sure the engine wasn't hydro locked with diesel. I took off the EGR and pull out the glow plugs, then cranked it. the starter cranked the engine just fine and I didn't have a ton of diesel fly out. Then I did a compression test wile I had the plugs out. I got 400+ on the first 3 and on the 4th I got about 320, which isn't bad it also might be showing low because of my tester not fitting very well. during my compression test. I had all of my other plug out but the tester and my starter was still have the same problem where the Bendix was popping back.

I pulled off my starter to look for debris or anything and also so I can to a bench test. I hooked up some jumper cables and the Bendix pop out and stayed out... The starter spun, northern that looked strange. so I reinstalled the starter, plugs, EGR, and everything else. Cleaned up the battery terminals and put on a jump box with a 1000 amp peak and I still have the same problem. I tried a remote starter helper, and still northern.

This is where am at, I fear my problem is the timing skipped a tooth and bent my rockers. I want to make sure I check all the smaller things first. An idea I had was maybe one of the injectors was messed up but I kinda need the engine to be running first. Is there something that makes the starter act that way if the starter is under too much load or is there something deals going on?

I have been recording video of most of it so if there is a part of it you would like to see I edit it together real quick, but I don't have any of it running yet. I plan on putting it all together when I get done. Thank you again for taking the time for reading this.
Author:  flash7210 [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
Can you crank it over by hand?
Author:  jws84_02 [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
How many miles on the jeep? Sounds like collapsed rockers. How long did you crank on the starter? It might be burned up
Author:  apesofdoom [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
flash7210 wrote:
Can you crank it over by hand?

I didn't crank it by hand. The starter was able to crank it when I had all my plugs out wile I was testing for hydro lock, I cranked it for 10 to 15 seconds.
Author:  apesofdoom [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
jws84_02 wrote:
How many miles on the jeep? Sounds like collapsed rockers. How long did you crank on the starter? It might be burned up

It has 131,000. Wile plugs are in it barley cranks before the Bendix was pops back, the engine does advance. With the plugs out, for as long as I want I did for 10 to 15 seconds.
Author:  flash7210 [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
apesofdoom wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
Can you crank it over by hand?

I didn't crank it by hand. The starter was able to crank it when I had all my plugs out wile I was testing for hydro lock, I cranked it for 10 to 15 seconds.

Cranking it over by hand can help you feel for any binding in the engine.

How does the gear look on the starter? Clean or mangled?
If the starter keeps disengaging then either the flexplate has some broken teeth or the starter is bad.
Author:  apesofdoom [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
flash7210 wrote:
apesofdoom wrote:
flash7210 wrote:
Can you crank it over by hand?

I didn't crank it by hand. The starter was able to crank it when I had all my plugs out wile I was testing for hydro lock, I cranked it for 10 to 15 seconds.

Cranking it over by hand can help you feel for any binding in the engine.

How does the gear look on the starter? Clean or mangled?
If the starter keeps disengaging then either the flexplate has some broken teeth or the starter is bad.


The gear on the starter looks clean. No sharp edges or anything. If the stater was bad would it be the entire starter or just the solenoid? or is there a problem with the Bendix its self?
Author:  flash7210 [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
Its either broken teeth on the flexplate or the starter cant handle the load of the engine.

Also, make sure your battery is in good condition and fully chaged. Have it tested if necessary.
Author:  geordi [ Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
Hang on - hoofbeats, people are looking for zebras.

Go back to the original scenario - engine was running but oddly. Engine starting issues, seems like excess compression or load on the starter.

So follow the electricity. I don't know where the ground strap connects on this engine, but I think it might be on the engine mount on the driver's side. Check on that, maybe it got broken somehow? It is easy enough to duplicate a ground strap, use a lug-to-lug battery cable and do one from the block to the frame and another from the frame to the battery directly. The hot lead to the starter should be a direct wire, so the only other thing that can directly affect the starter's power is the ground strap.

Bad ground could also affect the computer, but first things first. Also, can you be more detailed about this encounter on ice? Did you hit anything? Did anything break? Sliding on ice doesn't mean much, it is the sudden stop at the end that makes the difference.
Author:  apesofdoom [ Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
geordi wrote:
Hang on - hoofbeats, people are looking for zebras.

Go back to the original scenario - engine was running but oddly. Engine starting issues, seems like excess compression or load on the starter.

So follow the electricity. I don't know where the ground strap connects on this engine, but I think it might be on the engine mount on the driver's side. Check on that, maybe it got broken somehow? It is easy enough to duplicate a ground strap, use a lug-to-lug battery cable and do one from the block to the frame and another from the frame to the battery directly. The hot lead to the starter should be a direct wire, so the only other thing that can directly affect the starter's power is the ground strap.

Bad ground could also affect the computer, but first things first. Also, can you be more detailed about this encounter on ice? Did you hit anything? Did anything break? Sliding on ice doesn't mean much, it is the sudden stop at the end that makes the difference.


Thank you for reading the post. I will check the ground and try a more direct connection tomorrow. The part about the ice. We had snow and we don't salt the roads here so it got packed and turned into ice. The off ramp I took was a two lane off ramp and apparently I was in the lane no one was really using. Yes I hit Ice and it was thick ice. So I went from asphalt to probably 4+ inches of ice and I was probably going 35 or 40 mph... it was very bumpy. I didn't slam on the brakes or skid I just changed lanes.
Author:  geordi [ Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
Ok... That shouldn't have caused anything mechanical, I think you have an electrical issue, a pinched ground or a shorted positive somewhere. BUT since the starter line is always hot, if that positive was shorted, you'd already know b/c the Jeep would have burned to the ground.

It has to be a bad ground.
Author:  racertracer [ Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
You may want to try this repair.

My 2005 had a similar electrical condition, the wiring directly behind the plastic "Y" shaped trough located above the injectors, had shaken loose the wires that led to the high-pressure sensor near the firewall. I don't remember the name of the sensor but it connects to the high-pressure fuel rail. I replaced 12" of wiring along with the connector and all was well again.

I since bolted down the plastic "Y" shaped trough to minimise the shaking.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
FYI:
Wiring problems with any of these items could cause fuel pressure issues.
As others have stated, a bad or broken ground can cause all kinds of issues!!! :roll:

There are three main electrical components that control fuel rail pressure via wiring! Any one of them could cause a fuel pressure issue on the fuel rail!
    1. Fuel Pressure Regulator: (Also called by some as: Fuel Quality Solenoid:) Located on back of CP3 fuel injection pump. Controls the amount of fuel being pumped to the fuel rail, excess is returned back to fuel tank and the flow also helps cool the CP3 internally. 05159962AA
    2. Fuel Pressure Solenoid: Located on the rear of the fuel rail. Controls fuel rail pressure. 05159964AA
    3. Fuel Pressure Sensor: Located on side of fuel rail. Tells ECM the fuel rail pressure and ECM in turn controls the rail pressure using items 1 & 2. 68020556AA ; 05159963AA
Note: Sometimes you will see these items called by other names, but these are the correct nomenclatures used by Mopar.

Also: A bad CP3 pump can mechanically also cause low fuel rail pressure.
Air in fuel on the suction side of the CP3 injection pump can cause low fuel pressure problems, i.e. leaks on fuel filter head, stopped up fuel filter, leaking fuel line or fittings, etc...
A bad fuel injector can dump to much fuel causing low fuel rail pressure and / or a lot of black smoke... :roll:

:SOMBRERO:
Author:  apesofdoom [ Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
Checked the main ground today, and it still has a strong connection. I ran a separate grounding wire from the battery to a mount to the starter..... still no change in the problems. my meter is showing only .5 amps when the key is turn on and not cranking and 4 to 2 amps wile cranking. I took my starter off again and took it apart. I think I'm have trouble with the one way gear part of the Bendix. It caches most of the time but some times not at all.
Author:  flash7210 [ Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
Umm, exactly how are you measuring amps while cranking?

The starter should be pulling well over 30 amps while cranking.
And thats on a bench test.

While actually cranking the engine it should over 100 amps.
Author:  rankom [ Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
well I'm worried , about damage if any ? when you drove it home 3 miles from ice skating rink and home , make sure your flex plate is steel connected to crankshaft , so you are not only spinning TC with ring gear assembly , sorry it is just a guess , it is weird, why this engine is not cranking like it should ?
Author:  apesofdoom [ Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
flash7210 wrote:
Umm, exactly how are you measuring amps while cranking?

The starter should be pulling well over 30 amps while cranking.
And thats on a bench test.

While actually cranking the engine it should over 100 amps.


I was using a clamp meter. I don't have a lot of experience with them, and I thought it was strange to. I think I might of had it set to AC :shock:
Author:  apesofdoom [ Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
Well my starter is out right now, and I'm just going to bite the bullet and get a new one. I just started my work week so I'm not going to get it put in till Wednesday so you guys know.
Author:  geordi [ Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
As far as I know, clamp-on meters can't read DC current, but trying a different starter isn't the worst idea. I'd hang on to yours for the moment though, don't just hand it in when you buy the new one, just in case it isn't actually the reason. Then you can take back the mexican starter if it doesn't change the performance.

Don't feel too bad about random issues... I had a "fun" weekend with one of my VWs, went to start it after working on it and had managed to leave a wrench on the crankshaft bolt. It dutifully unspooled that bolt and the timing gear popped right off. :banghead:

Now I get to completely disassemble the engine to rebuild the timing system, and figure out if I managed to get it out of time badly enough that I trashed the valves... Which on this engine means that I trashed the head completely too. FML.
Author:  WolverineFW [ Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Engine Problems and Starting Problems
geordi wrote:
As far as I know, clamp-on meters can't read DC current.


Sure they can if they are designed for it. I own two that read AC and DC current with the clamp.

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