Engine light and no power

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

So I'm trying to make sense of this latest "thing" with the jeep. It was running fine when I parked it 3-4 days earlier. Went to start it the other day, started fine but was running a tad rough, and the engine light was on (wasn't previously). Went to drive off and there was just little to no power, barely made it to the next driveway to turn around and come back up my drive. I didn't have time to deal with it then.

Went out today and checked under the hood, no leaks, no fluids were low, no rodent chewed wires I could see. I thought I should check for air in the fuel filter and there was some, took three or so pumpings and bleedings to get to solid fuel coming out. Anyway started it up today just fine, and things seemed good (although the engine lite is still on). Had power for the short trip down my road.

So, my question is what's up. I know that reading the codes would be a first step, but I don't have a reader (will try to borrow one, or if I feel lucky will try to drive to an Autozone to get it read). But I was wondering would air in the fuel filter give the symptoms I saw, rough idle, no power and an engine light? Would be great if it were as simple as changing the fuel filter.

Anything else folks can think of to check before I can get the code pulled?

TIA

flash7210 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:40 pm

Air in fuel will cause rough running.

If the ECM detects insufficient fuel rail pressure, it will set a code and go into limp mode with reduced power.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:19 pm

There are lots of possibilities, but having that trouble code would help us narrow down and hopefully diagnose your problem... :roll:

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

OK. I will see what I can do about getting someone with a reader out here. And in the mean time change that fuel filter and take it for a few short test drives.

If it was a clogging fuel filter with air in the fuel and insufficient fuel pressure and code and limp mode, would this go away on its own - the engine light that is? Just wondering if I could look to that as a first test of if the problem is fixed if I can't get the codes read.

wilco549 · **Posted:** Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:38 pm

Do you have a lift pump or in tank pump? Sounds like you are getting air in the fuel system and the lift pump should take care of that.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:17 pm

Steve777 wrote:

If it was a clogging fuel filter with air in the fuel and insufficient fuel pressure and code and limp mode, would this go away on its own - the engine light that is?

You mentioned that you pumped and bled the primer pump 3X. Truth is, it didn't go away on it's own. You temporarily fixed the symptoms yourself, but not the problem.

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

Fair enough, I did pump and bleed air from the fuel filter, so something did change. Today I replaced the fuel filter; had been meaning to do this for a while and this seemed like a good time to get it done. Jeep started and ran fine after the filter change.

I did try to read the codes at my neighbor's. He has a fairly fancy reader that takes modules for different cars (that you buy separately). He had one for his fords but not jeeps. Anyway it would not communicate with the CRD; it should have in generic mode??? I tried my very old VAG-COM (from my TDIs). All it could do is test the OBD2 port and it said that it will communicate OBD2, so it would seem the data port is working. Anyway ordered a ELM-327 bluetooth one and I'll see how that works.

Interestingly, after a few short trips this afternoon, the engine lite went out on its own. So whatever the ECU didn't like seems to be gone. Still a bit nervous about what caused the no power situation, and if it wasn't the filter then will it be coming back. But I suppose I can wait a week to see if I can read it with the ELM327 reader. Or if I am feeling lucky can try making it to the nearest Autozone (25miles) to see if they can pull the codes.

Just curious, with the engine lite off, will whatever codes that caused it still be stored in memory to be pulled later, or are they bye bye?

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:44 pm

That depends somewhat on the particular code, but most engine codes will indicate to the reader whether they are (Active) or (Stored) codes. Some will self cancel when the problem is fixed, others will cancel after so many key cycles, and others will stay stored until cleared.

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

Got a cheapie ebay obd2 module and read the stored codes. Only one of them, P0201; which they say is injector cyl#1 circuit problem. Mkes sense, as it was running like a cyl wasn't firing when this happened.

I cleared the code, but the engine lite had gone off on its own a while back, so I am assuming this was a stored code.

Even though things seem to OK now I'd like to know more about this P0201 code. Any sage advice here. What would be the likely cause for it to show up out of the blue and then go away? Bad wiring, dirty connector, other ideas or things I should check? Could it have been relates to a clogged fuel filter (what I though/was hoping was the culprit here)?

Thanks

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:21 am

Here is my take on it...

You have a poorly functioning partially clogged injector #1 that has never had any injector cleaner run through it.

Search for a high-quality injector cleaner, procure it and let it flow through the fuel system.

It will take multiple tankfuls of fuel to do the trick or drive the vehicle approximately 1 to 2000 miles with the solution in the tank.

I use a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in the tank at fill up or search for another high-quality diesel injector cleaner capable of removing the carbon fouling from the tip of the injectors and also from the combustion chamber.

http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/index.p ... /products/

Or this https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/diesel-f ... m-cleaner/

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:49 am

X2, very good advice on the Marvel Mystery Oil and injector cleaner! I would add both to fuel tank...
Diesel Kleen+Cetane Boost by Power Service is a good additive that is supposed to clean and help lubricate injectors. I use it in both my diesels! :wink:

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

Thanks guys.

I think the injector cleaner is a great idea. Certainly can't hurt and likely would help. I had some Liqui-Moly Diesel Purge in the garage, so threw that in the tank. I'll do it again next tankful and see. But even before the cleaner it has been running fine.

Did a bit more searching and found someone who had a P0201 from a clogged fuel filter. He had been running biodiesel and the filter change solved his problem. It was interesting in that I too run Bio, 100% during the summer and lesser amounts in the winter. Seems odd that biodiesel would cause an injector code but hey. One thing Bio does is lube the IP and injectors better than most anything out there; probably why these trucks came with like 2% bio in the tank from the factory. But another thing Bio does is clean out your fuel system, it's a great solvent. It's pretty common for cars that switch to bio to have a clogged fuel filter or two in the first few thousand miles from all the cr@p the bio loosened up. I was sort of expecting a clogged filter (that's why a had a fuel filter handy), just not an injector wiring code from a clogged filter.

Been meaning to ask about cleaning the injectors by running straight cleaner thru them for a while. On VW TDI's, it's common practice to remove the input and return lines from the IP, put them into a jar or can full of cleaner (Liqui-Moly is the one that everyone seems to use) and just run the engine until the cleaner is about gone. I've done this with cars which sat for 2 years and were smoking the whole neighborhood, and one can run thru this way brought things back to normal. Just wondering if anyone has tried this with the CRDs and if it works here too.

Anyhow, I will keep up with the cleaner, and I'll see if things are fix or not as time goes on...

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

Well I thought this little issue was put to bed, but I guess not...

On Monday, my kid was driving the CRD, it ran fine then just lost power and the engine light came on again. I went down to him with 11mm wrench and paper towels, bled the fuel filter again (took a dozen pumps to get to solid fuel) and everything was fine or so it seemed for a while. So I figured must be some sort of air leak somewhere. I drove it carefully for ~100 miles or so and it seemed fine, although I did bleed the air again at 50 miles and there was air in the filter again.

Just now got the CRD off the tow truck at the house. I was driving it around and it was fine, until at our last stop it sounded like before (rough running as if on 3 cyl or so) and engine light. So I bled it to solid fuel (there was air) but unlike the previous times, this did not fix it this go around. Engine continued rough after the bleed, no smoke but even with the go pedal floored could barely get to 30mph on flat ground. So pulled off in a parking lot and called for a tow.

While I was waiting for the tow, I checked the fuel filter again, no air in there. And pulled codes again, same P0201 as before but no others.

So I am wondering what to look at/for next. Obviously seems to be an air leak in the fuel system since I keep having to bleed air out. It has the new fuel filter head (shows new part # and heater line is spliced). I put a new fuel filter in a few hundred miles ago. What else to look for? Where are common air entry points to these fuel system besides the filter head? And why this time when the filter is full of fuel does it not fix the rough running???

The P0201 says electrical problem with injector #1. I had been writing that off since the code, engine light and rough running previous would all go away as soon as I bled the air out of the filter without touching the injectors or their wiring. Not this time though. Are there any simple tests on the wiring to the injectors?

I was also wondering if maybe this really is an air leak issue at heart, but this time it just got worse and somehow got to the point of a bubble of air blocking the #1 injector. Is that possible on these engines or just wishful dreaming? If it is possible, how would a bleed out #1?

Other thoughts?

Thanks guys.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:56 pm

Main entry points are:
- at the filter head
-At the tank where the plastic locking clips attach the plastic fuel lines to the plastic sending unit head.
-in front of the tank where the plastic locking clips attach the plastic fuel lines to the steel fuel lines.

These fittings are designed to keep fuel in rather than keep air out. This is why an in-tank lift pump helps so much.

Your #1 injector problem is most likely unrelated to your air problem. Try unplugging the electrical connection, clean and re-connect. It may not be getting the proper instructions.
If that doesn't work, try swapping injector 1 with injector 2. If the problem persists and is indicating #2 cylinder, then you have a bad injector or at least one that needs to be cleaned.
If the problem persists and still with #1 cylinder then you should look for a mechanical problem. Get a cylinder compression check and proceed from there. It's possible a lifter or roller arm may have failed.

Edited for clarity

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

Tried unplugging the #1 injector electrical connection. Wires and connector looked good. Put it back in and fired the engine up, no diff still not running on all cyls. Tried unplugging #1's electrical connector while idling; again no diff.

So it would seem injector #1 is not firing. either it is having trouble or the ECU doesn't like it and has stopped trying to make it fire. Anything else I can check on the injector before pulling it, like measuring the electrical resistance? or for shorts to ground? Any more info on what can trigger a P0201?

Otherwise, sounds like time to swap #1 and #2 injectors and see if the problem moves. Any suggestions for pulling the injectors for a CRD newbie (have pulled injectors on a TDI before).

BTW, I assume mechanical issues (broken lifters etc) would throw other codes. Or should I be checking for those problems too?

Another data point here, there is often a small cloud of greyish smoke at startup after the CRD has been sitting for a while (overnite or day or more). I've been assuming this is one or more leaking injectors dripping into their cyl over time. The smoke goes away in say 10-20 sec and I had not been that concerned. But I was thinking, could that leaky injector perhaps be sthe same issue as #1 injector not working, and maybe even the air in the fuel system???

joe_ · **Posted:** Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:21 pm

Steve777 wrote:

Tried unplugging the #1 injector electrical connection. Wires and connector looked good. Put it back in and fired the engine up, no diff still not running on all cyls. Tried unplugging #1's electrical connector while idling; again no diff.

So it would seem injector #1 is not firing. either it is having trouble or the ECU doesn't like it and has stopped trying to make it fire. Anything else I can check on the injector before pulling it, like measuring the electrical resistance? or for shorts to ground? Any more info on what can trigger a P0201?

From what I've been reading, sounds like P0201 is generally triggered by either a short or open circuit for injector #1. I'd thoroughly check the wiring, but it could possibly be caused by a bad injector or even the driver in the PCM. The wires for injector #1 go to pins 1 and 25 of the PCM connector C1 (which is the larger of the two connectors on the PCM). The pinout for that connector is on page 1101 (8W-80-60) of the 2005 KJ service manual. Check for continuity and shorting on those wires, and try moving the wiring harness around to check for any intermittent problems.

Steve777 wrote:

Otherwise, sounds like time to swap #1 and #2 injectors and see if the problem moves. Any suggestions for pulling the injectors for a CRD newbie (have pulled injectors on a TDI before).

If you're pulling injectors, you'll need to replace the copper crush washer at the base of each injector you've removed and the rubber o-ring too. You'll also want to clean the dirt and crud out of the injector bore(?) in the head before you put the injector back in.
idparts: Injector Seal & O-Ring Kit (Liberty CRD)
Sasquatch Motorsports: OE Mopar Injector Seal & O-Ring Kit for Jeep Liberty 2.8L CRD

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:03 am

Good advice

I also recommend cleaning the crud out of around the injectors as much as possible BEFORE PULLING the injectors out to minimize the chance of stuff falling into the hole when you pull the injectors up.

Definitely get the seals and O-rings for final assembly, but just for a quick swap test it's not necessary, since they will both be coming back out again regardless of whether one needs to be replaced or not.

Definitely do the pin checks to verify proper continuity of the wires. These see an unusual amount of heat for their insulation when the engine cover is on, and the factory protection really really sucks.

I tossed mine out and re-did it with Parker PolyGuard that prevents convective heat buildup that was causing wire insulation to melt together inside that 2-piece monstrosity that came from the factory.

EDIT Whatever you do, DON'T look at the #1 fuel injector bleed line clip! :oops:

Steve777 · **Joined:** Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:31 pm **Posts:** 279

Well it's been a while, as 18" of snow and some more immediate and urgent issues with other cars took my attention in the last week or so. But the snow is gone now, and the other cars are running so its back to the Jeep.

In some ways, perhaps sitting for a week or more was good, cause it showed up one issue. When I opened the hood, there was fuel collected around the top rim of the fuel filter. Maybe a spoonful or two. Not obvious where it came from, but the two rubber hoses were dry (and would not leak down there anyhow). This is a new filter head so I don't think it is the old leaking at the heater connection (and wasn't that just a vacuum leak fuel didn't come out there did it?). It is a new filter, a Napa/Wix one. It could be leaking around to top rubber seal, that was wet but hard to say if that was the source of the leaking fuel or just wet from it. Since the previous filter was getting air in it regularly, maybe not this filter... Anyhow I washed the whole area and will keep an eye out for where the fuel is starting out.

I checked the injectors (still in the engine). #1 has the same coil resistance as #2, so I don't think it is a dead coil/solenoid in #1. Took a look at the wiring, and found that if I move the whole bundle of wires going to the top (big) connector at the ECU, I could make the problem come and go. Just a light pull on the bundle to move it an inch or two seemed to do it. In fact one move caused the engine to just stop instantly. I looked over the wires and did not see any with breaks in them or eaten thru, so I pulled the top connector and cleaned the ECU pins and the connector with electrical cleaner. Put it back together and ran the engine a while. It seems better, at least I could not recreate the problem with the small movement of the wires as before and I could clear the P0201 code and it stayed away. But I wasn't really pushing my luck with the wire movements that much.

So I suspect I still have an intermittent bad wire (or more) in that bundle to the top connector of the ECU (or maybe bad connectors). If I am lucky it was just a dirty connection and that got cleaned out. But I will probably spend some time trying to move one wire at a time to see if I can fine the ones causing the issue and where the break is. If anyone has any suggestion on a quicker/better way to do this, please let me know.

Same on the fuel filter leak. If anyone has any thoughts of where this fuel and air leak may be coming from on the new filter head, please let me know.

A bit of an update (had to wait for the thunderstorm to end here). So I looked up the wiring to Inj #1 (thanks Joe_). On an 06 looks like pin #25 and #74 of the top connector. Those seem in good shape at least as far back as the web covering is slid back. I did not try to check for shorts, etc as these #1 inj wires seem to come and go as I move things around still. although it seems better now. So I am sure I could find an open sometimes and no problem others depending on how the wires are moved...

What I did notice is that there is some "work" which has been done on the wires to the ECU/PCM before me. The webbing over the harness was slid back 6" or so, and a couple of butt connectors put in. All look like simple splices of the same wire, so I suspect they had some electrical issues with this wiring before.

Problem I see is there is an open (or maybe a short) in the #1 inj wires somewhere in the harness. Likely in the first 1' or so from the connector, since moving the wires there is what make this issue come and go away. Problem is, is it is not an obvious break, at least not in the 6" or so of wire that is exposed, and these #1 wires are twisted together with other wires a short ways from the connector. I'm thinking that I probably need to open up the webbing over the harness further back, then carefully follow each of the #1 wires down, looking for a weak spot. Perhaps even press on the wires while the engine is going in the hopes of finding that "tender spot". Again if anyone has any other ideas of how to localize this, pls let me know...

rankom · **Posted:** Sun May 07, 2017 9:51 pm

you asked for other ideas ,my idea is 2nd fuel filter head is just as good as 1st gen, so i had them replaced under warranty because chrysler parts department will give you new one every time you come back to see them no question asked . lol but they will tell you don't install lift pump , they say is not needed.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Mon May 08, 2017 11:46 am

rankom wrote:

lol but they will tell you don't install lift pump , they say is not needed.

Thats BS!!!!! :furious:

Ask anyone who has installed one about how much difference it makes in fuel system integrity and function! :wink:

Engine light and no power

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