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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:54 pm 
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I just caution the possibility of blowing something up, although I'm 95% sure the ecu will kill it first.

As for reselling it, they are a one time use item from what I've read, but many thanks for trying this out! This kind of stuff is what makes LOST so great :rockon:

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,OME lift,GDE engine&trans tune,Truetrac front dif,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams, lift pump,Sasquatch grid heater, trans pump, turbo, Hemi TC,fuel head,welded EGR port, Samcos, muffler delete, RL cargo shelf, steel roof rails
Mech fan, VH & AC delete (4 pulleys removed), tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:35 pm 
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The original (as far as I know) that's currently in there is stuck closed and nothing is blown up.
It will start and run with the fuel pressure sensor unplugged, and the fuel pressure hovers around 12000psi at 1100 rpm.
If I plug the fuel pressure sensor back in, when the ECU senses the fuel over-pressure situation, it kills the engine. Takes from 2-6 seconds to react.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:55 pm 
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For the sake of comparison, mine reads about 8300psi @ ~1100 RPM in the Torque app. (I took that reading about 30 sec - 1 min after a cold start if that makes any difference.)


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:57 pm 
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Part Received

Rail pulled out

Comparison pictures sent to WWDiesel. I'm having trouble with my cloud hosting thing.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:21 pm 
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The next step is finding out if it's compatible with this ECU.

Interesting that it's physically the same unit used for the Dynamax 6.6L

Price $85 shipped.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:17 am 
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Gordon asked me to post these pictures for him:

GM Dynamax Fuel Pressure Relief Valve
The package received with the GM part label.
Image

Comparison Photos side by side.The new GM one is on the left.
Image

Physically, they are identical.
The GM part is 10 years newer, and has a different part number.
The only physical difference is there is a crush ring on the removed jeep valve from where it seals against the Rail body.
Image

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/Battery Tray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/Hayden HD clutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair,K&N


Last edited by WWDiesel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:46 am 
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Thank You!
Thank You very much!

Having to make a special tool to properly torque this 30MM sleeve.

more pics when it's done.

Really hoping the ECM can make this valve work correctly.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:32 am 
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Can you please post pics of the end of the fuel rail with the solenoid removed and the crush sleeve?
Is the crush sleeve reusable somehow?
What is the torque value?

When I replaced my rail pressure sensor there was no crush sleeve on it. I used blue locktite on the threads just to be sure is would seal tight.
You might be able to do the same thing with the solenoid to seal its threads, keeping the old sleeve in place. But without seeing how it threads into the rail I cant be sure.

Just for reference, IDparts list the same rail pressure solenoid for both the 2.8 CRD and the 3.0 CRD. I cant verify how accurate that is but this picture shows the 3.0 fuel rail and no crush sleeve on the solenoid.
IOW, I dont think the crush sleeve plays any part in sealing the solenoid to the rail.
Image

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
Cheap 1 inch lift, 245-75R-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:19 am 
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Looking at the pictures, it looks like a simple adaptor or adaptor/spacer to me, not a true "crush sleeve". They may have added this part because they did not want the sensor to screw in too deep into the end of the rail? :roll:
A "crush sleeve" is something that actually gets "crushed" when enough pressure is applied! Like the sleeve between the pinion bearings! :wink:

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/Battery Tray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/Hayden HD clutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair,K&N


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:10 pm 
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[edited for clarity]
There is no separate crush component. And it's not exactly a crush sleeve. The crushed part is the larger flat part at the very end of the valve body. It's a one time use only design, like in the manner of the copper washers used with banjo bolt fittings.

The threaded part is somewhat like a step-down bushing for pipe, but there is no internal threads, so it spins freely on the valve body. I will refer to it as a "Torque Sleeve". The larger hex is for positioning the body, and for holding it from turning as the threaded part pushes it in. I will get better pictures when my bro gets home from work. Had to use his camera phone for the pics.

If you've ever pulled the steering wheel from a GM vehicle to replace a broken signal switch, for example, the Saginaw column has that steel steering wheel lock ring plate that has to be removed. To do that it must be pressed down so the keeper ring can be removed. The body of this valve has a ring very much like that, and when you thread the bushing in, there is a groove the bushing fits in to as it pushes against the ring, so the ring can not come out of it's groove. I will try to show this as well.

The business end of the valve pushes tight against a reduced diameter shoulder inside the rail. This is the part that separates the high pressure that the pintle valve works in, and the low pressure area that the discharged fuel flows to, and out the return port. The high pressure valve is the really small pintle point at the tip. When the fuel pressure pushes it back against spring and magnetic pressure and away from it's seal, the fuel flows around the valve seal tip, and around and pintle shaft, through the journal it passes through, and comes out behind the major shoulder seal to the low pressure discharge area. In a similar fashion that that oil is supplied to a hydraulic lifter, but with reverse flow. Again, I will try to show this with pictures. I've disassembled the mounting parts of the removed valve to show how everything works. The pintle also has a tiny shoulder that limits the distance the valve shaft can be pushed back. I'm guessing here, but it appears to limit the movement to about 1.5mm to 2mm. It appears, in this case, that the part of the valve shaft that passes through the body (on my removed valve) is boogered a bit, and not allowing the valve to be pushed back properly, causing the pressure to be way too high.

I will do my best to get a pic of the rail insides.

One other thing if you do this, when you mount the rail in a soft-jawed vice, do not clamp down on the mounting journals, on mine, at least, the bolts that mount it to the valve cover pass through very very tightly, and if the surfaces are displaced at all, the bolts will give you a heck of a time going back in.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Thanks again for the bravery! Are you just fabbing up a crows foot to torque it?

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05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,OME lift,GDE engine&trans tune,Truetrac front dif,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams, lift pump,Sasquatch grid heater, trans pump, turbo, Hemi TC,fuel head,welded EGR port, Samcos, muffler delete, RL cargo shelf, steel roof rails
Mech fan, VH & AC delete (4 pulleys removed), tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Something like that. It kind of depends on what kind of 30mm wrench I can find to improvise.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:58 pm 
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http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool-wa ... fgodOjkBBA

A quick search turned up one for cheap. Unless shipping is crazy can't beat $6

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,OME lift,GDE engine&trans tune,Truetrac front dif,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams, lift pump,Sasquatch grid heater, trans pump, turbo, Hemi TC,fuel head,welded EGR port, Samcos, muffler delete, RL cargo shelf, steel roof rails
Mech fan, VH & AC delete (4 pulleys removed), tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:26 pm 
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That is exactly what I was shopping around for, but never found one I could buy without paying for a whole SPECIAL ORDER special tool set for around $80.

Thanks MM!

I'll turn my fabrication skills loose on something else till it gets here...

[edit] It should be here by Saturday.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:32 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
That is exactly what I was shopping around for, but never found one I could buy without paying for a whole SPECIAL ORDER special tool set for around $80.

Thanks MM!

I'll turn my fabrication skills loose on something else till it gets here...

[edit] It should be here by Saturday.


Anytime, yeah, I like making tools, but not really cheap ones

_________________
05 CRD: H.D.S2 stat,OME lift,GDE engine&trans tune,Truetrac front dif,FFD fan,ARP's, new head,rockers, cams, lift pump,Sasquatch grid heater, trans pump, turbo, Hemi TC,fuel head,welded EGR port, Samcos, muffler delete, RL cargo shelf, steel roof rails
Mech fan, VH & AC delete (4 pulleys removed), tensioner relocated
-CRD's being restored


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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:58 pm 
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If I can buy a tool for a price like that, the hours spent heating, bending, cutting and welding, could be better spent in the time it takes to ship here.

I have more pics that were requested

I'm hoping WWDiesel will continue to help me with the uploading and posting.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:22 pm 
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Hope I got them in the right order with appropriate text?

From Gordon:
pictures of the rail, at the crush boss that separates the high pressure fuel from the low pressure discharge, then go over the Fuel Pressure Relief - Servo - Valve, however you want to call it, depending on who's literature is discussing it.
GM also has 3 or 4 different terms they refer to this component.

Pictures from the end of the rail where the Pressure relief unit threads in.  In this picture you can see the machined boss where the diameter drops to about 1/4"  All fuel forward of this point is injection pressure (High Pressure)  All fuel behind this boss is low pressure (discharge - return fuel)

Image

Same feature, but in this picture I tried to show where the crush area contacted the boss with the removed valve assembly. Discharge pipe to the left, sort of as installed in the vehicle
Image

​In this picture I used an angle where you can see the low pressure discharge port from the inside.  Behind this port, there is an O-Ring that prevents this discharge fuel from passing between the valve body and the torque sleeve, and leaking out the back.
Image

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/Battery Tray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/Hayden HD clutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair,K&N


Last edited by WWDiesel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:38 pm 
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More from Gordon:

The following picture is of the valve assembly with all of the attaching components removed.  From left to right, this is the old unit valve body, the Torque Sleeve, The retaining ring, and the O-Ring seal. The pick pointer is showing the journal around which the torque sleeve spins.
Image

This picture points to the groove where the O-Ring sits.
Image

This picture points to the groove of the steel retaining ring.
Image

This picture points to the discharge port relief
Image

And this is a picture of the complete assembled unit as it arrives in the factory package.
Image

In the previous picture the cap-looking thing at the bottom end of the pic is a complex part. 
The outer sleeve you see fits around the end of the valve and is crimped at the low pressure discharge relief.
The front part that looks kinda like a washer, is the actual crush area. (This is the new part that hasn't been torqued yet, so this is what it looks like new out of the box).
That washer looking face is the part that crushes against the boss of the fuel rail, and the valve inside is the part that separates the high pressure injection fuel and the low pressure discharge fuel. 
This part also has the tapered seat that the internal ball valve presses against.  There is a spring that pushes the ball against this tapered seat and allow just enough pressure to start the vehicle. 
Once it starts and the ECM takes over, it provides additional force via control of an electromagnet farther back inside the servo body.
The fuel presses to dislodge the ball from the seat via the pintle you can see sticking out at the bottom.
The pintle / piston serves as a hydraulic cylinder rod applying variable force through the hydraulic action of the fuel pressing to open the valve. 
This cap-assembly thing also serves as a guide for the rod applying force to the ball valve

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/Battery Tray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/Hayden HD clutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair,K&N


Last edited by WWDiesel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:51 pm 
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Responding to Flash's question about the hydraulic fuel seal

This component you can see with the photos I've sent to WWDiesel.

For the fuel pressure sensor, it has a similar boss that the sensor seals against, however in it's case, the tip of the sensor has a machined relief from the fuel sensor port, outward to about 3 MM or so from the very outside edge. The raised portion at the outside edge is the part that presses against the internal rail boss. Very small contact area means very high force pressing against the fuel rail body. I put a very very high end non hardening thread sealing compound on the threads, but being brass it probably wasn't necessary.

The tightening of the Fuel High Pressure relief valve - servo thing I'm working with here, has a really weird tightening procedure.

The part you tighten is not the large hex you can see. All that is for as far as I can tell, is to hold the servo body from spinning out of position when torquing the threaded brass Torque Sleeve, so I have to have something like the tool MM found to be able to get to the 30mm torque sleeve hex, and apply the appropriate torque.

I also understand I'm going to have to make adjustment to the torque values, since this tool is changing the force radius from that of the torque wrench drive.

The procedure is
1) Torque the sleeve to 44 ft lbs.
2) Back the sleeve off 90 degrees.
3) RE-Torque the sleeve to 59 ft lbs

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: fuel rail pressure solenoid
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:54 pm 
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Even more!!!!

This is a more direct pic of the crush face of the old removed valve.
The pick points at the contact area.

Image

one of the new valve without the pick
Image

Ok, How does this assembly apply sufficient force to seal in up to 29k psi?

Well.  The torque Sleeve as it is threaded in, pushes against the retaining ring, which also sits in it's groove in the steel body of the servo-valve unit, so the force is transferred to the unit assembly, crushing the face against the internal boss within the fuel rail that you have seen the photos of.

Image

Why doesn't the retaining ring just pop out of the groove when it's pushed against?
Well. The part of the Torque Sleeve that contacts the retaining ring has a machined relief that just fits around this retaining ring, so when it's pushing, there is no place for the ring to escape.  Although the Torque Sleeve is made of a hard brass alloy it isn't deflected by the steel retaining ring because it's threaded into the fuel rail.

Pic of the assembly when the Torque Sleeve is pushed forward against and around the retaining ring.  Like this it can't go anywhere, therefore pressing the whole unit against the high pressure boss in the rail.

Image

Did this answer everyone's questions?

_________________
05 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited :JEEPIN:
Blk Brush Guard/Hella's/LED's
Ironman Springs/Bilstein's
Yeti Stg4 MaxTune
Weeks ElbowKit/Battery Tray
NO FCV/EGR
Samcos/ProVent
SunCoast/Transgo
Carter Intank-pump
2mic.Sec.Fuel Filter
Flowmaster/NOcat
V6 Airbox
GM11 blade fan/Hayden HD clutch
Ironrock Trilink
98 Dodge Cummins, 5"exh. Viair,K&N


Last edited by WWDiesel on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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