Just bought Jeep, I think the rockers just failed!

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:14 pm

Science and Energy wrote:

It doesn't sound that loud like a valve hitting the piston. I suspect my valves are fine but the timing belt wear is concerning. I am going to try and post a picture (haven't done that yet).

Any recommendation on getting the tools to do this job? I found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Liberty-CR ... DQ&vxp=mtr

Although I have never used the IDparts kit, it should be a good quality kit.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

Any preference to timing belt brand?
I'm looking at a Gates belt.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:42 pm

Science and Energy wrote:

Any preference to timing belt brand?
I'm looking at a Gates belt.

Gates is good.
If you haven't yet. Check out IDparts.com. They have every individual part you might need including a kit that includes everything.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

I ordered the tool I posted earlier. I am correct in understanding that if I go to TDC on the cylinder closest to the radiator, then 90 degrees more, the pins should go into place? I want to make sure the timing is correct since I suspected it is off.

Also, I read that the injection pump needs to be in time. This didn't make sense to me since it is common rail with electronic injectors. I figured the injection pump is only keeping pressure. Does the injection pump have any kind of timing and how do I check it?

The tools should be here Friday.

rankom · **Posted:** Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:37 pm

good your tool will arrive soon so machine shop is close on friday , get that cylinder head of asap and give as a call , happy easter

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:38 pm

From the Factory Service Manual:

High Pressure Pumping Plungers
The fuel quantity solenoid supples three high pressure pumping chambers.
The pumping chambers have one way inlet valves that allow fuel to flow into the chambers.
The valves then close during compression of the fuel and cause the high pressure fuel to overcome a ball and angled seat outlet valve.
All three pumping chambers are tied together in one circuit internal to the pump and provide high pressure fuel up to 1600 bar (23,000 psi) through a steel line, to the fuel rail.
The pump is driven at 1:1 engine speed and is not responsible for injection timing.
The pump is only responsible for providing high pressure fuel while the ECM controls the injection timing.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

Yay, that is great news. It makes sense and I didn't see how I could try and time it any way. I was getting worried trying to figure out how it could be. The guy in the video I posted earlier for the timing belt change thought that it was timed for some reason. He was probably thinking of a mechanical injection pump. His video was great and helpful though so I am not trying to knock him or anything.

Thanks for the help on that.

So if I go to TDC on cylinder one then 90 that is when I have to try and get the pins in place? If they go in then everything should be timed right?

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:41 pm

Correct.

[edit]
If it doesn't line up, it's not a panic situation.
Since you have the Crank at +90degrees, the pistons are all at half-stroke, so you can spin the cams without valve interference.
Once you pull your old belt off, spin the cams till the timing pins go in, loosen the cam gear bolts, and proceed with any repairs, and take the timing procedure from there.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

rankom wrote:

good your tool will arrive soon so machine shop is close on friday , get that cylinder head of asap and give as a call , happy easter

Sorry, I don't understand. You have a machine shop or something? I am new to the forum remember. I am not sure what I will do after the injectors are tested and the rocker/lifters are inspected and likely replaced. I still have to decide if I should take the whole head off or not. Either way I plan on installing ARP studs.

I get the impression a bunch of people have had this problem and just replaced the timing belt + rockers/lifters. Atleast one guy had a dropped valve but that was obvious. When I rotate the motor by hand I don't hear any strange sounds, just compression groans. When I last turned it on it was a little noisy but now nailing or bangs. I really suspect I don't need to take the head off but I would be mighty pissed if I do all this and something still isn't right, leading me to take it all apart again and the head.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Wed Apr 12, 2017 11:49 pm

More than one person has pinned the wrong hole for the crank, so make certain the 4 bolt holes are horizontal and vertical (crank pulley) and that the timing mark is also exactly at 90. After its all together you'll take it two full rotations and the cam pins should go in reasonably easy. Sometimes you have to slightly bump the crank back and forth a hair to get the pins in, but if there's much resistance then try again.

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

GordnadoCRD wrote:

From the Factory Service Manual:

High Pressure Pumping Plungers
The fuel quantity solenoid supples three high pressure pumping chambers.
The pumping chambers have one way inlet valves that allow fuel to flow into the chambers.
The valves then close during compression of the fuel and cause the high pressure fuel to overcome a ball and angled seat outlet valve.
All three pumping chambers are tied together in one circuit internal to the pump and provide high pressure fuel up to 1600 bar (23,000 psi) through a steel line, to the fuel rail.
The pump is driven at 1:1 engine speed and is not responsible for injection timing.
The pump is only responsible for providing high pressure fuel while the ECM controls the injection timing.

In this case the service manual is wrong. If one looks at the fuel pump pulley and the crank pulley, the number of teeth are not the same. I believe the fuel pump lines up with all the other timing marks once every 5 revolutions, if memory is correct. When doing the timing belt it is easy to time the pump at same time. Set the V notch in fuel pump gear to timing mark on the aluminum front cover. The mark on cover is just next to the bolt holding the cover to the block next to the fuel pump.

FYI, There are 3 plungers in the fuel pump and 4 injectors. The pump is timed so the pressure pulses from pump do not ripple through the common rail at the same time as an injector is activated. The pressure pulsations can lead to variations in fuel delivery.

Mountainman · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:54 am

Yeah, it takes a couple tries, but not too bad. The toughest part is seeing the timing mark. Extending the cover mark is probably helpful

joe_ · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:25 am

Science and Energy wrote:

So if I go to TDC on cylinder one then 90 that is when I have to try and get the pins in place? If they go in then everything should be timed right?

Mountainman wrote:

More than one person has pinned the wrong hole for the crank, so make certain the 4 bolt holes are horizontal and vertical (crank pulley) and that the timing mark is also exactly at 90.

Mine seems to have a weird situation where the crank pulley is one tooth off when the crank locking pin was installed. I ended up having to pull injector #1 and stick an allen wrench down the hole to determine where top dead center really was, and from there I determined that the crank pulley was correct and the hole on the flexplate was somehow off. So if your crank pulley doesn't line up when the crank locking pin is installed, take the pin out and just go off the pulley.

GordnadoCRD wrote:

The pump is driven at 1:1 engine speed and is not responsible for injection timing.
The pump is only responsible for providing high pressure fuel while the ECM controls the injection timing.

As GDE pointed out, the manual is incorrect here; the pump isn't driven at 1:1 engine speed. IIRC the mark on the pump line up with the mark on the crank every 3 revolutions. As the cams line up with the crank every 2 revolutions, you have to turn the engine over 6 times for everything to line up again.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:09 am

Study these two timing belt install guides, good pictures and info!
Hopefully they will help you...

> http://www.colorado4wheel.com/content/KJ_TB.html

> http://www.beesvillebeefarm.com/jeep.html

Watch all of these videos Parts 1 through Part 5, they are very detailed and should be helpful.

Part 1:
http://youtu.be/5o_FJpBEKjk

Part 2:
http://youtu.be/cjhhxMzzyh8

Part 3:
http://youtu.be/mbi3rRSEdA4

Part 4:
http://youtu.be/-_uOjVG1XEs

Part 5:
http://youtu.be/jcVb_lWPLR4

:SOMBRERO:

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:27 am

With the alignment pins in place, the crankshaft bolts should make a perfect "+" as this:
Dimple or alignment mark on crankshaft at 3:00

Edit: Added the 3:00 crankshaft dimple! :wink:

Mountainman · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:36 am

WWDiesel wrote:

With the alignment pins in place, the crankshaft bolts should make a perfect "+" as this:

That's a nice example. If your eyes aren't good, it can be tough, but that's why you do the two revolution verification before you start it. Most of us that do lots of these never even mess with the crank pin. I've donemany and I don't even know where to look for it, even after tearing engine :2cents:

s all the way down

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:28 pm

That image is correct as far as it goes BUT... There are 4 bolts so how do you know that the correct one is at 3 o'clock? If you look closely at what looks like a big washer at the center of the crank you will see a dimple/witness mark next to the bolt that should be at 3 o'clock if the crank is lined up.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:49 pm

papaindigo wrote:

That image is correct as far as it goes BUT... There are 4 bolts so how do you know that the correct one is at 3 o'clock? If you look closely at what looks like a big washer at the center of the crank you will see a dimple/witness mark next to the bolt that should be at 3 o'clock if the crank is lined up.

Just like this...

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:20 pm

Excellent image of the dimple/witness mark but looks like the bolt holes are not quite lined up at 3/6/9/12; appears to need to rotate a bit more clockwise. This does bring up the issue that if you are doing the TB job with the front end stuff in place you need to be careful when lining up the bolt holes that the offside/offset view does not cause problems.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:13 pm

papaindigo wrote:

That image is correct as far as it goes BUT... There are 4 bolts so how do you know that the correct one is at 3 o'clock? If you look closely at what looks like a big washer at the center of the crank you will see a dimple/witness mark next to the bolt that should be at 3 o'clock if the crank is lined up.

Thanks pap, added the dimple to the drawing! Good catch!

I know some say it is not required to use an alignment pin in the flexplate for the crankshaft, but I respectfully submit that by using it or at least a hex wrench poked into the alignment holes, it should ensure the crankshaft is in the proper position provided the dimple is at 3:00...
I used mine (crank alignment pin) that came in the tool kit when I did my timing belt job and it worked perfectly!!!
As always, your choice, make it good! :roll:

Just bought Jeep, I think the rockers just failed!

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