Just bought Jeep, I think the rockers just failed!

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:02 pm

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

From the Factory Service Manual:

High Pressure Pumping Plungers
The fuel quantity solenoid supples three high pressure pumping chambers.
The pumping chambers have one way inlet valves that allow fuel to flow into the chambers.
The valves then close during compression of the fuel and cause the high pressure fuel to overcome a ball and angled seat outlet valve.
All three pumping chambers are tied together in one circuit internal to the pump and provide high pressure fuel up to 1600 bar (23,000 psi) through a steel line, to the fuel rail.
The pump is driven at 1:1 engine speed and is not responsible for injection timing.
The pump is only responsible for providing high pressure fuel while the ECM controls the injection timing.

In this case the service manual is wrong. If one looks at the fuel pump pulley and the crank pulley, the number of teeth are not the same. I believe the fuel pump lines up with all the other timing marks once every 5 revolutions, if memory is correct. When doing the timing belt it is easy to time the pump at same time. Set the V notch in fuel pump gear to timing mark on the aluminum front cover. The mark on cover is just next to the bolt holding the cover to the block next to the fuel pump.

FYI, There are 3 plungers in the fuel pump and 4 injectors.

After counting the teeth, I can confirm GreenDieselEngineering is correct.

The crank:fuel pump ratio is 1.44 : 1
This means that to check the timing mark of the fuel pump, you will need to rotate the crank 25 times.

It also means that this is incorrect:

Quote:

The pump is timed so the pressure pulses from pump do not ripple through the common rail at the same time as an injector is activated. The pressure pulsations can lead to variations in fuel delivery.

Because every 540 degrees (1.5 crank rotations), One of the three CP3 pump pressure events aligns in perfect timing with one of the 4 injector events.
AND
Because the pump pulley does not contain a prime number of teeth, this is mathematically unavoidable.

Therefore, even though the 1:1 in the factory service manual is incorrect, the rest of the FSM statement holds true.
So, if lining up the witness marks suits your fancy, go ahead (I did) but neither approach hurts anything.
If it were important or harmful for pressure pulsations to align with injection events, they could simply have made a pulley with one more tooth, making it a prime number 37. With a correction being this simple, and VM having not done it, leads me to believe they didn't deem it significant. Since this is a VM part, not a DCJ part, I tend to agree, but admit both entities have made some weird and questionable decisions.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:49 pm

It lines up every 3rd rotation, and is back to original position with the cams at every 6th rotation.

Now - about the timing of the fuel pump. The rail is ALWAYS full of fuel, what you are doing is managing the pressure waves with the fuel pump timing. This is a 4 cylinder engine, so how can the fuel pump possibly match with only a 3-lobed pump? Its a little thing called MATH.

If you take the size of the camshaft pulleys as "1" then the crankshaft is "1/2" and spins 2 revolutions for every ONE of the camshaft. That is how it can be a 4-cycle engine, and why it takes TWO revolutions to return to 90 ATDC on #1... On the intake stroke.

So if the cams are "1" and the crank is "1/2" and running twice as fast... The fuel pump is "2/3" and is running 33% faster - So that each and every time one of the cylinders opens that pressure drain (the injector) from the rail, the lobe of the pump could be lined up perfectly to push fuel and maintain the rail pressure as almost static and smooth.

If the fuel pump isn't lined up, the rail pressure will plummet when the injector opens, then the fuel pump will be pushing against a solid wall with the injector closed and the rail pressure will spike. As the rail pressure drops, the spray pattern from the injector will be uneven (think about shutting off a hose rather than letting go of the spray trigger) where the spray should be mostly constant with the timing properly done.

You don't want the pressure in the rail to spike and droop, that puts added stresses on the fuel pump and just generally makes the engine unhappy and louder. Sure, it might still run... But isn't a precisely running and smooth engine better?

For those trying to wrap their head around how a 3-lobed pump can match up with a 4-cylinder engine, it is math on the size of the pulley. I'd imagine that the different engines with more cylinders have different size pulleys on the fuel pump, and that contributes to properly matching them up with a lobe for each main injection event too.

Here is how the math works on the 2.8 4-cylinder:

Starting from 90 ATDC on #1, pins capable of inserting, fuel pump lined up with lets say lobe #1.
rotate 90 degrees, cylinder 3 fires with lobe #2
rotate 180 degrees, cylinder 4 fires with lobe #3
Rotate 270 degrees, cylinder 2 fires with lobe #1
rotate 360 degrees, cylinder 1 fires with lobe #2
rotate 90 #2, cyl 3 fires with lobe #3
rotate 180 #2, cyl 4 fires with lobe #1
rotate 270 #2, cyl 2 fires with lobe #2
rotate 360 #2, cyl 1 fires with lobe #3 - PINS INSERT, fuel pump 240 degrees out from mark.
Rotate 90 #3, cyl 3 with lobe #1
rotate 180 #3, cyl 4 with lobe #2
rotate 270 #3, cyl 2 with lobe #3
rotate 360 #3, cyl 1 with lobe #1... Fuel pump is now exactly 180 out from starting point, pins do not insert.
Rotate 90 #4, cyl 3 with lobe #2
rotate 180 #4, cyl 4 with lobe #3
rotate 270 #4, cyl 2 with lobe #1
rotate 360 #4, cyl 1 with lobe #2 - Pins again insert, fuel pump 120 degrees out from mark.
rotate 90 #5, cyl 3 with lobe #3
rotate 180 #5, cyl 4 with lobe #1
rotate 270 #5, cyl 2 with lobe #2
rotate 360 #5, cyl 1 with lobe #3
rotate 90 #6, cyl 3 with lobe #1
rotate 180 #6, cyl 4 with lobe #2
rotate 270 #6, cyl 2 with lobe #3
rotate 360 #6, cyl 1 with lobe #1... DING DING! Back at starting point, pins insert and pump lines up.

Hopefully this helps everyone visualize how the lobes can match with the firing order, and why I think it is important to have them match with the timing mark.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

I'd like to post some images of the situation and haven't had an image hosting service before. Who is recommended? :?:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

Science and Energy wrote:

I'd like to post some images of the situation and haven't had an image hosting service before. Who is recommended? :?:

Try Photobucket...

http://photobucket.com/

I use it to store a great deal of my thermostat photos.

When you sign up and upload your photos to your library, remember to choose the "direct" version of your photo to upload here on LOSTJEEPS.com.

To upload photos on this forum from Photobucket, start by clicking on the image in your Photobucket library that you want to use. A larger version of that photo will appear, with information on the right hand side that starts with the title "SHARE THIS PHOTO". There will be 4 choices for you to use; only 1 is recognized by the LOSTJEEP.com forum, and that is the choice that is designated "Direct". Copy the link that is labeled Direct.

Back on the LOSTJEEPS.com post you want to create, place your cursor where you want your image to be in your post. Right click on the "Img" button above. "" will appear with the cursor in between. Paste the Direct link from your Photobucket account where that cursor is in between [img] and [img]. Finish writing your post and click submit.

Best regards,

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

Just a tip to anyone reading this in the future. I was able to get new VM Motori rockers and lifters from the UK on ebay and saved 100 bucks (270 shipped): http://www.ebay.com/itm/272468872923?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

I will let you all know how long they take to get here and if I have any trouble.

Head studs were cheapest on Amazon. I was able to use my credit card's 5% cashback bonus at grocery stores and bought gift cards there (this also earned me fuel discounts at a rate of about 6%). They were around 155 after discount: ARP 2044706 Turbo Diesel Head Stud Kit for Volkswagen 1.9L Engine, posting.php?mode=reply&f=5&t=86401

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:36 pm

If you only bought one of those head stud kits, you will be disappointed. You need two of the 204-4706 kits to do a Jeep Liberty, it has 18 head bolts, where the VW only has 10.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

I ordered two but thanks for the heads up.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

OK. So I am going to try and post pics on a forum for the first time:

So, I think that sorta worked. You have to right click on the image icon and tell it to open it in a new window to see them.

These photos show the timing belt wear, shavings, and the fact that the fuel pump mark never lines up. That is as close as it gets no mater how many times I rotate the crank. The paint marks were there when I opened it. The timing pins were in when all of these pictures were taken.

WHY ARE THERE SHAVINGS AND DAMAGE TO THE BELT WITHOUT THE TIMING BEING OFF? I don't think the damage is related to the fuel pump mark not being in. I suspect the last person didn't line up the marks well enough when they put the belt on. It is only 2 teeth off. Should I line it up when I put on the new belt?

There is no sign of rubbing or cover damage. I don't get it!

I will get the cover off this week to see what is going on with the rockers, I hope.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:55 pm

Helped you out a bit with the pictures:
If you put the web address between [img]?[/img] brackets it will work! :wink:

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:47 am

That looks like the result of a failed belt tensioner. If it wears and the pulley goes out of alignment it forces the belt to run against the side, trying to come off. Probably way to low of tension as well, allowing the sprocket teeth to chew into the Gilmer belt lugs.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:23 am

What he said... And that belt looks TERRIBLE if it doesn't have 150k miles on it. Second worst I've ever seen.
Crankshaft also does not look squared up - bolt holes need to be vertical and horizontal with the divot at 90 ATDC or the 3 o'clock position as you are looking at it.

Paint marks are the classic signs of a "mark and pray" method, which when combined with existing belt stretch from an old belt... Your rockers are definitely toasted b/c the timing was NOT where it should have been. Looks like the crank is at least 2 teeth out, which is .5 past where it runs out of safety factor.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

According to the previous owner the belt was replaced within the past 15k miles. The Jeep is at 115k. When I pull the belt I will check the tensioner out as well as the idlers. I thought I remember the water pump looking new but I will double check that now as well.

The bolt hole method is a little fuzzy. There is a mark on the side of the crank that shows it is at 90 degrees. The mark is what I went by. Remember the crank pin is in.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:49 pm

The problem with the crank pin is that there are quite a few possible holes for that pin to drop into, and the actual correct hole is very very small.

If you take a picture from above and show the bolt holes in the crank hub - there are 4 of them. They need to line up to form a +, with one leg horizontal - this should be the one that has the crank divot timing mark at the 3 o'clock position, and then the other three holes should be at 6, 9, and 12. If they are not vertical and horizontal, then the crank IS NOT IN THE RIGHT PLACE and you will get to do this job again.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:18 pm

If you place the crankshaft with the bolt holes at 3, 6, 9, & 12 along with the divot/dimple mark at 3:00 o'clock facing the front of the motor, the crankshaft alignment pin hole should be aligned and the pin will go into the correct alignment hole in the flexplate! The engine is provisioned with these alignment holes for correct belt timing and the FSM says to use them when timing...

Some use a allen or hex wrench in place of the screw in pin which will work, but just not quite as accurate.
With the screw in alignment pin properly in place, the crankshaft will not move and is in perfect alignment for belt timing...

I used the pin when I did my belt replacement and it went in easily.

But as always, it's your decision whether or not to use an alignment pin, make the best one you feel comfortable with.....

papaindigo · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:12 pm

The pin may or may not work depending on how much crud there is in the bell housing threads - mine would not work at all. The 05 FSM shows how to use a 6mm/0.25" long shaft allen key which has the advantage of being able to use the allen key to "tap" around the hole in the flywheel, that you cannot see, to determine if in fact you are going into a small hole.

I suspect using the crank bolt holds and dimple are the best but if you want to double check try the allen key method especially if you lack the threaded pin.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

Maybe this was missed. ALL the pins were in when those photos were taken. The witness mark on my crank is not in perfect line with the bolt holes. I thought this was not uncommon? I will check again when I get back home today but I doubt they put another hole that lines up with the crank pin that is that stinking close.

" NOTE: Rotate the engine by the front crankshaft bolt until the witness mark next to the bolt in the front crankshaft hub reaches the 12 o'clock position, or TDC. Rotate the engine another 1/4 turn to the right, rotating the witness mark to the three o'clock position, or 90 degrees ATDC. "

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

I was mistaken. The previous picture of the crank was taken to show the shavings. It was before I put the timing pins in. These show the crank position now with the timing pins in. The witness mark is only slightly different from the bolt pattern. After cleaning the hole with wd40 and compressed air the pin screws most of the way in by hand.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:47 pm

I'm leaving my original post below this, just to help anyone in the future that finds this thread.
I do believe you have it correctly positioned now, and you can see what we were talking about with the bolt holes. As for the pin, it should not screw all the way in, it only pokes into the plate a little bit and stops within the tapered section of the pin.

[ORIGINAL POST]
Then you may not have the correct witness mark. It is on the big "washer" behind the center bolt head, and is a recessed place in the washer.

It MUST be correctly lined up with the bolt holes, because the hub is keyed. It cannot fit any way other than the correct way. As far as the holes in the flex plate, there are several LARGE eccentric shaped (not round) holes in the flexplate, and it is extremely easy to have found one of those if you are not in the right place. Only the TIP of the correct pin will fit into the correct hole, it does not penetrate the plate past the taper of the locating pin. That is why the FSM suggests the option of an allen key, so you have the ability to tap around the small hole and ensure that you have found that, and not a much larger hole in the plate.

It will really feel like there is nothing but a solid surface there when you are in the right place. If you have a tiny bore-scope, you can use that to look at the plate through the pin hole and see what you are aiming at. I really don't think you have the right location, TRUST THE BOLT HOLES, they cannot be wrong.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

Using tool kit 6235 from ID Parts the pin when all the way in.

I've only done a timing belt on a Honda and the tensioner was different. When I loosened the the tensioner bolt, I think nothing moved or changed. I am attempting to use the tensioner on the old belt and either I cant figure it out or it is broken. I cant see how the tension is set using that video (part 5) and the old tensioner. He doesn't show how he set tension, just what it looks like set. I cant get it to do that.

If you look at the above picture the spring is past where it is supposed to seat. I guess the tensioner failed then? That was taken before I loosened anything.

Science and Energy · **Joined:** Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:12 am **Posts:** 246

I just got it to set but it did this weird pivot thing like a cam action to be in the proper spot. When I torqued it, it stayed. Is this normal?

Now the question is did the tensioner shift from a sudden torque on the belt when a rocker bound or did the tensioner cause the probelm. I will see how much they cost. Too bad, it looks like its in good condition and turns very smooth.

Just bought Jeep, I think the rockers just failed!

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