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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Couple things:

The original fuel head design can cause leaks and fires. You don't need the fuel heater at all unless you are in the arctic. Unplug it, as it is NEVER OFF otherwise. Dumb design.

Make sure your filter is tight, and that you only have ONE of the center gaskets in place. Sometimes they stick when removing the filter, and having two on top of each other makes a good seal impossible.

The plug may be wet, smell of diesel, or look burned - this means you have an air leak. An acceptable solution is to spray out the socket with brake cleaner, and fill it to the lip with silicone RTV. When that cures, it will be an impenetrable permanent plug that should seal the air leak. As the system is under vacuum and not pressure, this could be where you are getting air in the system.

Now, about the plunger button: This WILL NOT STAY FIRM after you have run the engine. It is a one-way valve that shoves fuel into the line between the button and the high pressure fuel pump. Once that space is filled with fuel, the button gets firm. As soon as you start the engine, the pump sucks the fuel in, and reduces the pressure in that section back to zero / vacuum. This is normal and it is NOT an indication of air in the fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:33 pm 
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krautastic wrote:
Since this is becoming my repository of random questions. After doing some research, I have delayed acceleration when leaving a light. It doesn't feel like turbo lag, it feels like a delay from pedal application to fuel getting injected. Searching says its likely air in the fuel system, and so I checked, and the prime pump was not firm. So I pumped and bled until fuel came out. Don't know that I noticed an improvement, but the recommendation seems to be in tank lift pump cures all ills. My question is, is there any reason to upgrade the fuel heater head to the new design when doing the in take lift pump? Does it improve anything that the lift pump wouldn't already address? Any preference on wiring? Was looking at buying/modifying a 3.7 harness since there's a ton of these being parted out/at the junkyard

If your fuel heater is leaking, after you install an in-tank lift pump, you will find out quite quickly as fuel will start leaking out of the plug instead of air being sucked into the fuel prior to in-tank pump install.
Any leak in your fuel system anywhere that was allowing air to be sucked into the fuel system will become a self evident fuel leak after an in-tank fuel pump install...
Then you can decide if you want to patch it or replace the head! :roll:

05 & 06's have different wiring harnesses due to ABS systems are different!
Your idea of picking up a junkyard harness from a gasser is a great idea! If I remember correctly, you will have to change a couple of the wires positions in the connectors and add some additional length to it to make it work properly! Gasser harnesses are shorter for some reason! :wink:

See these threads for more information:
http://www.auerbach.ca/kj/lift_pump/
&
for wiring:
viewtopic.php?t=26385&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

:SOMBRERO:

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:02 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Couple things:

The original fuel head design can cause leaks and fires. You don't need the fuel heater at all unless you are in the arctic. Unplug it, as it is NEVER OFF otherwise. Dumb design.

Make sure your filter is tight, and that you only have ONE of the center gaskets in place. Sometimes they stick when removing the filter, and having two on top of each other makes a good seal impossible.

The plug may be wet, smell of diesel, or look burned - this means you have an air leak. An acceptable solution is to spray out the socket with brake cleaner, and fill it to the lip with silicone RTV. When that cures, it will be an impenetrable permanent plug that should seal the air leak. As the system is under vacuum and not pressure, this could be where you are getting air in the system.

Now, about the plunger button: This WILL NOT STAY FIRM after you have run the engine. It is a one-way valve that shoves fuel into the line between the button and the high pressure fuel pump. Once that space is filled with fuel, the button gets firm. As soon as you start the engine, the pump sucks the fuel in, and reduces the pressure in that section back to zero / vacuum. This is normal and it is NOT an indication of air in the fuel.


That makes sense on the plunger button. Thanks!

The fuel heater can cause fires- electrical fires? I thought diesel needed compression to ignite and was otherwise very stable? Or does the heater bring the fuel up near the self ignition temperature? And you're saying that the electrical plug itself will be the source of the leak? Sounds like I'll check that, and order a new fuel filter to check gaskets/assembly. And, in a few weeks I can do the lift pump and assess the head at that point if it needs replacing. I imagine a 2 part epoxy would fill the plug nicely and would likely work at the low pressures of the lift pump. I mean, 8psi, over the surface area of a couple small pins/leaks, it seems like the RTV would stay plugged up as well.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Epoxy probably would work, but RTV is a much more aggressive bonding agent and offers a stronger seal. Red, black, grey... Doesn't really matter, they all will work equally well to fill in that socket.

As far as the fire risk, here is what happens:

The heater is in the "puck" at the top of the filter, just below the plunger button area. This is the high point in the fuel system, so air naturally collects here anyway. When the PLASTIC of the heater puck is exposed to air instead of being surrounded and in contact with fuel, it overheats and eventually cracks b/c the fuel isn't there to carry away the heat. Once this happens, the fuel can come in contact with both an overheated heating element AND fresh air - all three things needed to provide for fire. Yes, diesel fuel is difficult to light when not under compression, and it will not vapor or explode... BUT IT WILL BURN. Just like a piece of paper in a toaster won't explode, it will burn when the heating element touching it reaches a hot enough point to cause spontaneous ignition.

This is exceedingly rare, but it has happened to several CRDs and what initially led to the second generation fuel head design anyway. FYI: the second generation head doesn't shut the heater off either - so just leave the thing unplugged. The injection pump will provide more than enough heat to the fuel anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:00 pm 
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geordi wrote:
Couple things:

The original fuel head design can cause leaks and fires. You don't need the fuel heater at all unless you are in the arctic. Unplug it, as it is NEVER OFF otherwise. Dumb design.

Make sure your filter is tight, and that you only have ONE of the center gaskets in place. Sometimes they stick when removing the filter, and having two on top of each other makes a good seal impossible.

The plug may be wet, smell of diesel, or look burned - this means you have an air leak. An acceptable solution is to spray out the socket with brake cleaner, and fill it to the lip with silicone RTV. When that cures, it will be an impenetrable permanent plug that should seal the air leak. As the system is under vacuum and not pressure, this could be where you are getting air in the system.

Now, about the plunger button: This WILL NOT STAY FIRM after you have run the engine. It is a one-way valve that shoves fuel into the line between the button and the high pressure fuel pump. Once that space is filled with fuel, the button gets firm. As soon as you start the engine, the pump sucks the fuel in, and reduces the pressure in that section back to zero / vacuum. This is normal and it is NOT an indication of air in the fuel.


geordi:

It is a dumb design only when used in a negative fuel pressure situation, like we have here with the CRD. Installing an in-tank fuel lift pump and subsequently plugging any leaks in the CRD fuel system cures the fire hazard problem. To label the O.E. fuel head/heater combination of the CRD as simply being a "Dumb design" is rather short-sighted on your part. Furthermore, posting that removing the electrical lead to the fuel heater, and then sealing off the electrical port connection with RTV silicone as a proper cure for the problem will likely cause unintended consequences, like a loss in efficiency and power production of the engine.

Do you feel that you can get away with this backyard "repair" because you live in a hot climate? What about all of us who live in cold climates? The next time you have an idea for one of your repairs, why don't you consult with a diesel technician or a diesel fuel systems engineer?

Preheating diesel fuel is desirable because it increases combustion efficiency, even in warmer climates. This is why the fuel heater is designed to be on all of the time; the diesel engineers who designed the R428 in the CRD determined that heating the fuel is necessary to squeeze more efficiency out of the engine. Most diesel powered vehicles - both passenger and commercial applications - have a diesel fuel heater somewhere in the fuel system to optimize fuel temperatures to maximize the atomization and combustion of the fuel when it is injected into the cylinder. Heating diesel fuel is not simply accomplished to prevent gelling of the diesel fuel in winter weather.

Your signature indicates that you are a "Proud supporting vendor of LOST Jeeps"... yet, when I check on the LOSTJEEPS.com Vendor's Alley, your status as an Official Vendor ended on September 7, 2016. Either have Heather properly update your status to indicate you are a current paid Vendor, or remove your claim to being a supporting Vendor from your signature.


Last edited by TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK on Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:07 pm 
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geordi's quote:

"The injection pump will provide more than enough heat to the fuel anyway."

This is a rash assumption on your part and indicates that you have no idea of how frigid cold weather adversely affects diesel fuel. Typical of someone from Florida who can not envision driving conditions beyond a climate that rarely gets below 32 degrees Fahrenheit.

What you are saying here is that you essentially know more than the engineers who designed the R428. This is not surprising as this is not the first time you have made assumptions such as this.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Plugging the fuel heater connection with rtv is a good temporary fix.
The filter assembly should be replaced with the updated version.

Given the appropriate knowledge, the owner should be able to decide whether or not they need a functioning fuel heater.
Ive had my CRD for 10 years and the fuel heater has been unplugged for 80% of the time (well, actually I pulled the fuse).
But, you know, I live in Florida :roll:

Just for comparison...
My work truck is a 2014 International MaxxForce.
When it was built it was spec'd to operate reliably under a variety of adverse conditions.
It has a intake heater, block heater, fuel line heater, fuel tank heater, and a Webasto heater.
All except the intake (grid) heater are manually switched on or off.
I have only ever used the intake heater.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:22 pm 
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krautastic wrote:
Was looking at buying/modifying a 3.7 harness since there's a ton of these being parted out/at the junkyard
The only problem I've found with this (at least at the junkyards I've been to) is that they put their "junkyard jackstands" under the fuel tank to support the rear of the vehicle, meaning you'd have to lift the rear of the vehicle and find some other way to support it in order to drop the tank and disconnect the wiring harness from the fuel pump.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:51 am 
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joe_ wrote:
krautastic wrote:
Was looking at buying/modifying a 3.7 harness since there's a ton of these being parted out/at the junkyard
The only problem I've found with this (at least at the junkyards I've been to) is that they put their "junkyard jackstands" under the fuel tank to support the rear of the vehicle, meaning you'd have to lift the rear of the vehicle and find some other way to support it in order to drop the tank and disconnect the wiring harness from the fuel pump.

If it is a junkyard vehicle, you could just cut a hole in the rear area to access the top of the tank!
That way you would not have to drop the tank to unplug the harness, if dropping the tank is a problem?... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:27 am 
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I have 256,000 miles on mine now running like a camp if preventive maintenance is done .


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:43 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
geordi's quote:

"The injection pump will provide more than enough heat to the fuel anyway."

This is a rash assumption on your part and indicates that you have no idea of how frigid cold weather adversely affects diesel fuel. Typical of someone from Florida who can not envision driving conditions beyond a climate that rarely gets below 32 degrees Fahrenheit.

What you are saying here is that you essentially know more than the engineers who designed the R428. This is not surprising as this is not the first time you have made assumptions such as this.


Kinda an old post now.....but this is absolutely true. While the CP3 will heat the fuel some fuel temperature and viscosity are closely related, and viscosity and atomizaiton/droplet formation are closely correlated.

"Thinner" fuel means better atomization, which means a better burn, which means better fuel economy.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:19 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
krautastic wrote:
GDE confirmed that it was tuned in 2015 with an eco tune. So the next question is why it only got 25mpg on 70% / 30% highway / city. Anyway, thats just my ramblings.



Take an OBDII reader, hook it up to your port under your steering wheel and get an actual temperature reading in degrees; do not trust what the O.E. temperature gauge says. You are likely running your engine temperature below what is optimum. These engines - like all modern diesel engines - really like being above 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Better combustion efficiency and better able to burn off what pollutants do manage to get past the GDE tune.
Hey Jeff, before I changed the thermostat to the hds masterpiece, I managed about 25 highway most of the time, since I drove at about 75mph. Same mileage in the city. Since I replaced the thermostat to hds I get about the same mileage, but I also have the arb bumper and the ome lift, but I didn't drive a lot on highway because I have the EcoDiesel, so my observations are not very scientific. Your thermostat though, with the 190F stant that I use (vs your default option that's I believe 203F?), made a world of difference in warming up, much faster even in winter.

I believe that the 25 mpg op is having could be normal, depending on driving style. I got 30 mpg with the jeep driving with 70 mph highway in no traffic and I could maintain the speed most way and didn't need to pass to many other vehicles.

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Last edited by thermorex on Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:26 pm 
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thermorex wrote:
I got 90 mpg

I've read a lot of internet, and know for a fact that only 300+ hp 4bt's get that kind of mileage :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:36 pm 
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aaronguy2k1 wrote:
thermorex wrote:
I got 90 mpg

I've read a lot of internet, and know for a fact that only 300+ hp 4bt's get that kind of mileage :lol:

:ROTFL:
Yeah, that's gotta be a typo.

I'd say that most CRDs average about 25mpg depending on local conditions.
I once got 30mpg and a couple times 29mpg, all were on long trips (500+ miles).

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:42 pm 
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aaronguy2k1 wrote:
thermorex wrote:
I got 90 mpg

I've read a lot of internet, and know for a fact that only 300+ hp 4bt's get that kind of mileage :lol:
Sorry, I meant 190 mpg, forgot the 1... Lol. I fixed it in original post.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:58 pm 
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:!: OHhhhhhhh I get it :idea:

:BINGO:

You're using Metric miles! :ROTFL:

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:20 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
:!: OHhhhhhhh I get it :idea:

:BINGO:

You're using Metric miles! :ROTFL:
Prototype engine, can't share the mods, oil mafia will kill me. Lol.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:45 pm 
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You can easily get 190mpg in the CRD. You just have to have it running while on the back of a car carrier!

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Over 125 CRDs currently driving with my timing belt, rockers, or ARP Studs.
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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:51 pm 
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geordi wrote:
You can easily get 190mpg in the CRD. You just have to have it running while on the back of a car carrier!
Man, that towing vehicle must drive very fast, lol...

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:22 pm 
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thermorex wrote:
geordi wrote:
You can easily get 190mpg in the CRD. You just have to have it running while on the back of a car carrier!
Man, that towing vehicle must drive very fast, lol...


I don't think you calculated that right... Miles per gallon, not miles per hour. ;) It uses about 32 ounces an hour idling - 4 hours per gallon. So that is just shy of 50mph as an average, easily doable for any truck.

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