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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:05 pm 
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krautastic quote: "The thermostat does stick to basically 12noon, but I've read that others typically sit at 10 or 11 oclock, and run too cool. Is the 12noon a sign of a healthy cooling system or something not right unless you're running the machined thermostat with higher temp that one of the users on here makes?"

Technically, geordi is correct that a temperature gauge needle pointed straight up possibly indicates a properly functioning O.E. thermostat. But he is not telling the whole story here.

Therein lies the rub.... it has been known for YEARS now that the O.E. thermostat assembly is bad because the valve inside is set to open up at 176 degrees Fahrenheit for CRD vehicles in the North American market. This is way too low for optimum efficiency and power production of the engine. It was set to that temperature to meet the Environmental Protection Agency's ridiculously low NOx standards. This thermostat assembly in CRD vehicles in other parts of the world have a valve that is at least 20 degrees higher, (and even that temperature is a little low). This very low operating temperature, and the fact that the O.E. thermostat must be completely replaced every time it fails, is the reason why attempts have been made for years to modify the O.E. housing to make it serviceable and use hotter valves. It is also the reason why I developed the H.D.S. Model 001.

The other factor to consider is that the O.E. temperature gauge is notoriously inaccurate and not linear in its readings. The Model 001 assembly I manufacture uses an inexpensive, replaceable 203 degree valve. When a Model 001 is installed on a CRD engine the needle also points straight up; so how accurate can the O.E. temperature gauge really be if it points to the same spot on the gauge when the engine is actually running 27 degrees hotter?

If you want to actually KNOW your engine's operating temperature, plug in an OBDII reader into it and get an actual measurement, not an indication on a dial. :wink:

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4J/1G Hi Performance Engine Thermostats
3727 - 117 Street N.W.
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
T6J 1S5

Tel: 1-780-434-2324
Mobile: 1-780-844-0135
E-mail: INTCOMBUSTION2@hotmail.com


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:49 pm 
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I've interacted with 4 CRDs using a mixture of OEM, Kap's mod, and HDS thermostats over time. The OEM temp gauge is "non linear" and not marked in degrees but it is reasonably accurate; if you search around you can find an illustration of degree readings for different needle positions. It's calibrated to move in relatively small increments during normal temp operation but larger increments when the coolant starts to over heat. As a result the difference between the needle position with a properly functioning OEM unit and Kap's or HDS with a higher temp tstat is not much. Keep in mind that the opening temp of the tstat does not determine the operating temp of the engine coolant rather it determines the lowest temp of the coolant; to put it another way an engine with a 176 degree tstat may have a higher coolant temp and an engine with a ca. 203 degree tstat will have coolant at least that hot. As TDF says within reason higher is better.

As to needle position all 4 CRDs regardless of tstat the needle position is between 1/2 a needle width left of dead vertical to nearly dead vertical. Anything significantly below that (10-11 o'clock or 1 mark left of vertical or worse) is a failed open or failing by opening too early tstat. Been there done that and it will cost you 10-20% off normal mpg.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Is there a way to linearize the temp gauge? I've done this on my miata by changing resistors on the needle itself. As for OBDII reader, I'm finding that torque is locking up after a few minutes. I have a very nice OBDII reader (OBDLink MX) because I used it for data logging on a past car and wanted the fastest responding unit. This is the first car I've encountered issues on, and a quick look through the forums others report issues as well.

Confirmed with a stethoscope that alternator is the squeak, although the noise is transmitted closer to the windings rather than the decoupler. But it could just be transmitting the noise. The sticker on the alternator is very faded, so I need to figure out if its the OEM unit or not after reading all the issues with auto-parts store replacement units.

Plan is to inspect turbo hoses and MAP sensor this weekend, determine alternator, and order decoupler if its an OEM alternator. If its not, then maybe I'll need to spring for a denso unit and bite the belt change bullet when it wears out.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:41 pm 
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If anyone could figure out how to make the temp gauge more linear it would have been GDE and they have not done so. If I've done this right the stock degree readings are in the image below.

Image

if not go to viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60274 and scroll down.

As to your alternator a good local auto electric shop should, per what others have found, be able to check it out and if it's the decoupler replace it for less than you can buy the part.

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Sold to LOST member my 05 Ltd, GDE Stg II turbo + TCM tune, SunCoast TC w. Transgo kit, Steiger window regulators, Samcos, Fumoto valve, 2nd gen filter head with Lub. Spec. bleeder, Hayden clutch & 11 blade fan, inverted spare, P-1 battery, BF Goodrich Long Trail TAs, Etecno1 glow plugs, timing belt at 50K miles/8 yrs


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:27 pm 
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AGREED. The only caveat I would place on your post is that there is still some misinformation that is floating around the internet and on Jeep Forums like LOSTJEEPS.com. As time marches on these bad ideas get weeded out, (like the Elephant Hose Modification, apparently), and newer ideas take their place. Ultimately, however, it is up to the CRD owner himself or herself to do the research to find out what is best for their ride.

Nobody can be an absolute expert in all areas of service... today's vehicles are simply too complex to achieve this level of expertise. This is why I have limited myself to engine design fundamentals and the cooling system of the R428 engine that powers the CRD. There is plenty to learn just in this small category... like what happens when fundamental design changes take place in the cooling system and the bad things that can happen as a result; a-la the in-hose thermostat valve modification and its various incarnations. :roll:

I do not have the time or the inclination at this point in my life to learn about engine tuning, so I leave it to the experts that work on this category every day; like the people at Green Diesel Engineering. It is well worth my money to purchase a GDE tune at the prices they charge, rather than try to install a DIY tune and have to ask questions on LOSTJEEPS.com, Facebook and elsewhere to get it to work correctly. The GDE tunes are plug and play, and are superior tunes to the DIY tunes because of the detail that goes into the engineering of them.[/quote]

whats wrong with that mod??

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:24 pm 
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bigE.94 wrote:
whats wrong with that mod??

If your speaking of the DIY tunes, NOTHING!
People have opinions on all of the different mods shared on this forum! Some of them are good, and some of them are very good, but price does not always dictate quality or the best modification when making decisions on what to modify, change, or upgrade.

Do your homework, read all the posts, ask questions if you have any to see what others have done to their CRDs and what they think of them!
Lots of different opinions on this forum on some items, and some that most agree wholeheartedly on.....
:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:20 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
bigE.94 wrote:
whats wrong with that mod??

If your speaking of the DIY tunes, NOTHING!
People have opinions on all of the different mods shared on this forum! Some of them are good, and some of them are very good, but price does not always dictate quality or the best modification when making decisions on what to modify, change, or upgrade.

Do your homework, read all the posts, ask questions if you have any to see what others have done to their CRDs and what they think of them!
Lots of different opinions on this forum on some items, and some that most agree wholeheartedly on.....
:roll:

Opinions aside...

My butt says that a Yeti 811 stage 2 tune has more low end torque than the Yeti 811 stage 4 tune.

I trust my butt.
:jester:

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intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
Cheap 1 inch lift, 245-75R-16 tires.
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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:59 am 
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I think he was referring to the elephant hose mod. I personally don't think of a tune as a mod though i know it is.and the elephant hose mod is what has been more controversial.
If thats what is meant:
It may cause blown rear seal. It can freeze in winter leading to this in far north climates.
I don't plan to use one although I know others still do. I am not convinced that it provides any benefit worth the risk with other dos available such as egr delete/ disable and prevent etc
There is much discussion of this elsewhere but thats my :2cents:

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:09 am 
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Now you can get alternator for about $150 delivered to your house with lifetime warranty from auto zone advance and orally IIRC if you catch internet sale which are often present, i got 20% off . I usually don't buy those type alternators but they r easy to replace and isn't much more than replacing with quality decoupler pulley.They most likely however do not have it in store, so don't count on quick availability.

You can also buy tool ( a whole kit from gates is about $95 but you can probably find just the one much cheaper to remove the pulley or ? modify a large hex head socket? . E Bay sells replacement pulleys for about $30 . May do this just to have an immediate fix available for pulley. I am sure the e bay pulley may not be that great quality since others are over $85 but wouldn't need to last long. Alas the actual alternator can still go bad just like any other vehicle.

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05 Blu LIM, OME GDE Tbo, wk II,, 255/75/17 BFG Mud, KC Lights, bull bar, 161K H TC
05 Blu Lim, Dayton, GDE HT, 255/75/18 Dueler AT, 188K , H TC
06 Bla Lim, GDE Eco, Destination AT 245/75/17, 151K, H TC
06 D Khaki Lim 98K wkII Eur TC
01 F350 7.3L Du
CRDS: Fumoto, Kennedy Lift , Fan Shroud mod, fuel head, SAMCOS,self TB, 2 Mic filt, Hayden


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:43 pm 
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bigE.94 wrote:
AGREED. The only caveat I would place on your post is that there is still some misinformation that is floating around the internet and on Jeep Forums like LOSTJEEPS.com. As time marches on these bad ideas get weeded out, (like the Elephant Hose Modification, apparently), and newer ideas take their place. Ultimately, however, it is up to the CRD owner himself or herself to do the research to find out what is best for their ride.

Nobody can be an absolute expert in all areas of service... today's vehicles are simply too complex to achieve this level of expertise. This is why I have limited myself to engine design fundamentals and the cooling system of the R428 engine that powers the CRD. There is plenty to learn just in this small category... like what happens when fundamental design changes take place in the cooling system and the bad things that can happen as a result; a-la the in-hose thermostat valve modification and its various incarnations. :roll:

I do not have the time or the inclination at this point in my life to learn about engine tuning, so I leave it to the experts that work on this category every day; like the people at Green Diesel Engineering. It is well worth my money to purchase a GDE tune at the prices they charge, rather than try to install a DIY tune and have to ask questions on LOSTJEEPS.com, Facebook and elsewhere to get it to work correctly. The GDE tunes are plug and play, and are superior tunes to the DIY tunes because of the detail that goes into the engineering of them.


whats wrong with that mod??[/quote]

As WWDiesel said, nothing really is "wrong" with the DIY tunes. Many people are now using them, and I have not seen any significant problems reported. There may be some long-term fuel system issues pop up later in the life of the CRD engine, but that is sheer speculation on my part.

I am concerned that the thread associated with these tunes is now 61 pages long with over 1,200 replies.... LOSTJEEPS members asking all kinds of questions related to these tunes, and that raises alarm bells for me. My own personal opinion on engine tunes is that they should be completely plug and play... however, if you are prepared to fuss with a DIY tune, then I am fairly certain that they will be fine for you.

I formulated my opinions of engine tunes from my own experience developing an aftermarket product for the Liberty CRD. There is a fairly large contingency of members on this forum who seem to think that the cheapest method is always the best method of doing things, and from the perspective of someone who has spent serious dollars developing a PROPER solution to a significant problem with the CRD I can tell you that this is simply not true.

How much time has actually been spent developing the DIY tune? If the author of this tune is giving away the software for free, then my own experience developing the Model 001 leads me to suspect that not a lot of effort has gone into the development of the DIY tunes. Engine computer software are complex programs that require a high level of expertise and leading edge equipment to properly modify and improve, because of all the details you have to change up to take care of ALL parameters. I am fairly convinced that Green Diesel Engineering has taken the time and trouble to take care of all of these parameters so that there are no issues down the road. I am not convinced that the authors of the DIY tunes have gone to the same depths of detail.

WWDiesel is correct in writing to me that a unbiased head-to-head comparison between GDE tunes and the DIY tunes would be necessary to provide a definitive answer, not only regarding power outputs but also fuel efficiency parameters. To make this fair, the test would have to be done with two CRD vehicles in the same condition, with freshly rebuilt engines being driven by the same driver in the same driving conditions; unfortunately, this is highly unlikely to happen.

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4J/1G Hi Performance Engine Thermostats
3727 - 117 Street N.W.
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
T6J 1S5

Tel: 1-780-434-2324
Mobile: 1-780-844-0135
E-mail: INTCOMBUSTION2@hotmail.com


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:16 pm 
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Quote:
To make this fair, the test would have to be done with two CRD vehicles in the same condition...

Or just one CRD, with access to the various tunes and a programming tool, and run it on a dynamometer.
Three pulls for each tune tested.

Driving habits vary based on terrain and the person driving it.
A dyno levels the playing field and somewhat removes the human factor.

To be fair, GDE has access to programming tools that the DIY folks dont have.
Being a professional shop, they have the ability to perform testing under a variety of conditions and provide a product that works best for the majority of CRD owners.

The DIY tuners just remove a few DTCs, increase rail pressure, increase boost, and maybe a few other details.

In either case, you get what you pay for.

That said, I've used a "Eco tune" and prefer the Yeti 811 stage 2 tune.
I havent run anything on a dyno but my butt says the Yeti is better. :D

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Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
Cheap 1 inch lift, 245-75R-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:05 am 
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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:52 am 
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Replaced the duralast alternator with an advance auto/carquest unit because lifetime warranty only applies to original purchaser. Doing the serpentine belt by removing the airbox, replacing the alternator was a cinch, so, if I need to replace it again in a year or two, so be it. Was $145 and the engine is much quieter now with the squeak resolved.

For kicks, I put a cone filter on, leaving the MAF unplugged. Drove to the store and back. Which included two start ups. The check engine light never came on, but I thought the ORM caused a CEL? The previous owner, claimed that the previous owner to him said it had a GDE tune, but the PO never achieved more than 30mpg so he didn't believe it. Also, I pulled my map sensor which was a bit crusty but not as bad as other images. So I'm going have to call to see if this vin is associated with a tune, because I was surprised by the lack of CEL. Put the stock airbox in and plugged the MAF in.

Last thing- the coolant light was on when I bought it, so I added more coolant to the reservoir. Did a 120 mile trip and the next day the light was on again, so I added coolant again. There's no drips. So that could be fun. I'm a car hypochondriac, so last night, waiting at the airport cell phone lot, I start the car back up and go to pick up the SO, and I thought I noticed some white smoke on acceleration. But thereafter saw nothing. This morning, I saw some white puffs till I got a block or two down the road, so I really hope its a condensation thing and not water leaking down into the cylinders/headgasket. Oil is consistent, and no evidence of frothy coolant/oil mix. First tank was 25mpg mixed city and highway and power feels good. Anyway, something I'll be keeping my eye on. Already did a bunch of searches to find the various places people are reporting coolant disappearing to.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:59 pm 
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GDE confirmed that it was tuned in 2015 with an eco tune. So the next question is why it only got 25mpg on 70% / 30% highway / city. Anyway, thats just my ramblings.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:21 pm 
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krautastic wrote:
GDE confirmed that it was tuned in 2015 with an eco tune. So the next question is why it only got 25mpg on 70% / 30% highway / city. Anyway, thats just my ramblings.



Take an OBDII reader, hook it up to your port under your steering wheel and get an actual temperature reading in degrees; do not trust what the O.E. temperature gauge says. You are likely running your engine temperature below what is optimum. These engines - like all modern diesel engines - really like being above 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Better combustion efficiency and better able to burn off what pollutants do manage to get past the GDE tune.

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4J/1G Hi Performance Engine Thermostats
3727 - 117 Street N.W.
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
T6J 1S5

Tel: 1-780-434-2324
Mobile: 1-780-844-0135
E-mail: INTCOMBUSTION2@hotmail.com


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:14 pm 
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krautastic wrote:
I start the car back up and go to pick up the SO, and I thought I noticed some white smoke on acceleration. But thereafter saw nothing. This morning, I saw some white puffs till I got a block or two down the road, so I really hope its a condensation thing and not water leaking down into the cylinders/headgasket. Oil is consistent, and no evidence of frothy coolant/oil mix. First tank was 25mpg mixed city and highway and power feels good. Anyway, something I'll be keeping my eye on. Already did a bunch of searches to find the various places people are reporting coolant disappearing to.

White / Grey exhaust is normal when the engine and exhaust system are below operating temperature.
The colder it is outside, the more & longer the white / grey exhaust will be.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:22 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
krautastic wrote:
I start the car back up and go to pick up the SO, and I thought I noticed some white smoke on acceleration. But thereafter saw nothing. This morning, I saw some white puffs till I got a block or two down the road, so I really hope its a condensation thing and not water leaking down into the cylinders/headgasket. Oil is consistent, and no evidence of frothy coolant/oil mix. First tank was 25mpg mixed city and highway and power feels good. Anyway, something I'll be keeping my eye on. Already did a bunch of searches to find the various places people are reporting coolant disappearing to.

White / Grey exhaust is normal when the engine and exhaust system are below operating temperature.
The colder it is outside, the more & longer the white / grey exhaust will be.

Start by pressure testing the cooling system to 16 psi.
Check for drips or wetness around every hose connection and clamp.

_________________
Bought my '05 CRD on June 2nd '07, used with 29,000 miles.
intake elbow and EGR delete. 7 volt Etecno glow plugs
Yeti stage 2 ECU tune. Straight pipe exhaust. DIY intercooler hoses
Provent and modified factory 180F thermostat
Replaced cylinder head (cracked) at 160,000 miles + ARP studs
Cheap 1 inch lift, 245-75R-16 tires.
Still love it.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:53 am 
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TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Take an OBDII reader, hook it up to your port under your steering wheel and get an actual temperature reading in degrees; do not trust what the O.E. temperature gauge says. You are likely running your engine temperature below what is optimum. These engines - like all modern diesel engines - really like being above 200 degrees Fahrenheit. Better combustion efficiency and better able to burn off what pollutants do manage to get past the GDE tune.


Did that. It was reading 176F like others have stated. Need to research what you guys do to bring temperatures up. I know there's the modified thermostat housing, don't know if people are also converting to electric fan or something to allow it to warm up faster. Lots of reading yet to do.

GordnadoCRD wrote:
White / Grey exhaust is normal when the engine and exhaust system are below operating temperature.
The colder it is outside, the more & longer the white / grey exhaust will be.


It was a low of 52 yesterday morning when I noticed the smoke and it was a low of 52 today with no smoke. I'm going to bypass the EGR cooler see if the cars thirst goes away, then I'm going to do a pressure test. Researching HG replacement in case that's where I need to go.


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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:33 am 
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krautastic wrote:
I know there's the modified thermostat housing, don't know if people are also converting to electric fan or something to allow it to warm up faster. Lots of reading yet to do.


That's what the stupid "viscous heater" is for.

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 Post subject: Re: it's 2017, is the CRD Lib a viable used car?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:52 pm
Posts: 33
Since this is becoming my repository of random questions. After doing some research, I have delayed acceleration when leaving a light. It doesn't feel like turbo lag, it feels like a delay from pedal application to fuel getting injected. Searching says its likely air in the fuel system, and so I checked, and the prime pump was not firm. So I pumped and bled until fuel came out. Don't know that I noticed an improvement, but the recommendation seems to be in tank lift pump cures all ills. My question is, is there any reason to upgrade the fuel heater head to the new design when doing the in take lift pump? Does it improve anything that the lift pump wouldn't already address? Any preference on wiring? Was looking at buying/modifying a 3.7 harness since there's a ton of these being parted out/at the junkyard


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