LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added arp?

I believe another poll regarding CRD engine timing belts, rocker arms, and ARP stud upgrades would be redundant and might likely muddy the waters even more than they already are.

I think the narrative on these issues is going the wrong way, as a lot of the discussion regarding valve failures, rocker arm failures and head gasket failures so far has been little more than speculation. Comments like "cheaper by the truckload" torque-to-yield head studs and other complaints regarding both the rocker arms and the valves are indicative that the decision regarding the culprit or culprits for the seemingly over-abundance of head gasket failures and valve train component failures has already been made.

That said, some testing of the valves by a forum member or an associate of a forum member was supposed to have been conducted, but I do not think the results of such testing has been posted as of yet. Perhaps there is no adequate test available to determine exactly why engine valves fail, and that is why nothing has been posted. :?:

Perhaps a better way to go about finding answers would be to have a couple of CRD forum members directly communicate with the actual engineers who designed the R428 engine, and ask them the appropriate questions as to why there seems to be so many problems with the cylinder head and the valve train of the R428 engine. Why were torque-to-yield head bolts used, why are the rocker arms and the valves apparently so weak that they fail often?

I do not believe anyone has tried to contact the V.M. Motori engineers regarding these issues. If I am wrong, and indeed a CRD forum member has contacted the engineers who designed the R428 engine, please post a synopsis of those communications for the benefit of all CRD owners.

Jeff, if there is an accusation in your drivel, cut to the chase and make it.

I don't have the results on paper yet to be able to post them, and when I do, you and everyone else shall have them. The preliminary inspections by graduate students who are studying metal material failures - which seems perfectly suited to this problem - the preliminary results that I have been told are that it does NOT appear to be scour from the EGR soot, there is no evidence of progressive fractures or pitting that could indicate a failure over time from a manufacturing defect or a crack that propagates over time. There is also no evidence of wear from valve guides sticking or wearing that they mentioned. Lastly, there is no evidence that it is a heat-related failure either. It would appear that the metal just gets to a certain point and reaches a limit of how much flexing it will endure, and fails.

Their process seems to indicate that what we are looking at is cyclical failure that tracks with the failure mileages - somewhere around 200k miles / 300 billion cycles of the valve. (do not quote me on the number I am not 100% on that and am going from memory at the moment) As each valve opens only once during each revolution of the camshaft and the cams are running at 1/2 speed of the crankshaft, that suggests that for an individual valve it is effectively running at 1/8 engine rpm if my math is right. So that means that we can calculate the number of cycles on a given valve at 200k miles assuming an average speed of 60mph / 2000 rpm.

Now, about that whole "why hasn't anyone contacted VM" comment... Why not YOU? You have all the questions, be our guest, contact them and get them to answer you! Nobody is stopping you. The reality is that you want to make all the pronouncements and engineering claims about products, but never produce even the slightest bit of proof, only demand that everyone else go out and find "engineers" and ask them for free information - and then ostensibly provide it to you.

But you will not get an answer from VM for exactly the reason stated: It could open them to legal liability for releasing a sub-par product by cutting corners to cut costs, and they won't admit this at all. The truth of the situation is that Chrysler specified to VM that they would only certify the engine for 120k miles, and they didn't care about anything after that point - ergo, they weren't interested in paying for R&D costs to enhance the engine's longevity beyond 120k miles, so that it would outlast their planned warranty by 50k miles - a healthy margin of safety for them, so they wouldn't be on the hook for either severe engine damage OR potentially even changing the timing belt under warranty.

But you can go right ahead and call anyone you want to prove me wrong. I'll be right here waiting for you.

hey flash, "I also replaced the timing belt, idler pulleys, tensioner, water pump, rocker arms, and installed ARP head studs. "

what's your current mileage? I'll put your 160k mile work on the list ..

I think it was a bad batch of valves.
Otherwise, the problem would be more wide spread across all R425 and R428 engines in all applications worldwide over the last 15 years.
And if you haven't already, delete the EGR.

Well if you guys think its a bad batch of valves, you're collecting the wrong information and should be looking at manufacturing dates.

Mountainman, you say replace the exhaust valves if you've had coolant consumption. Are you thinking because the exhaust valves will continually see only hot exhaust gas, and if there's coolant going into the chamber that they are getting quenched for some small amount of time and leading to embrittlement? I've never heard of subaru owners swapping out valves when their headgaskets fail. In the other poll there's 6 out of 45 reporting valve failures and I believe that forums tend to gather a certain subset of people, typically people with issues searching for a solution so you'll see higher percentage of issues.

i agree about the manufacture dates. I was organizing a spreadsheet to input the data and post a link to it on this thread or in the valve thread or somewhere.
We need to know the vehicle manufacture date, but more importantly for the valves the engine manufacture date. I presume there's a serial number on the engine somewhere maybe we could figure out how to get the engine manf date from the serial number. If there's a correlation of valve failures to a specific engine manufacture date range, that would lend support to the bad-batch of valves theory. there could also just be an out of spec valve every so often in the manufacturing line, which would be more random. There's a few more i'll try to tally them
here's what i was testing with see if you can access it ..
i could assign some others to update it i'll see if i can figure that out.
https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjoXnVa96mPNmIhy3uGbMQMlIynW3w

Author:	minnisp [ Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added arp?
Hi everyone, I've been following the valve failure thread. I think its good work that you're doing. I'm getting ready to do the 100k service (at 110k miles). replacing hoses, tb, therm, wp, fuel lines (they're pretty cracked) , rockers (hear too much ticking), and ARP studs, inspect and remount/reseal turbo. Also doing weeks 1+2. It's important to know about the valve failures, but should we be afraid? I'm not sure but i think it would be terrific and possibly as informative to know how many people on the forum have done the 100k TB service and possibly replaced rockers and studs and have not had a valve failure (some have suggested this). What I'm proposing here would work well with the existing poll. The only data we're looking for are the elements of the 100k service that would be MOST likely to affect the valve train and the head. If you've done a 100k service and then had a valve failure, please post on the other thread. Have you? (just copy the option that fits and paste in your post, or make your own): 1. replaced TB, Rockers, ARP without subsequent valve failure - mileage when work done: - current mileage: 2. replace TB, Rockers without subsequent valve failure - mileage when work done: - current mileage: 3. replace TB without subsequent valve failure - mileage when work done: - current mileage:

Author:	TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK [ Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
I believe another poll regarding CRD engine timing belts, rocker arms, and ARP stud upgrades would be redundant and might likely muddy the waters even more than they already are. I think the narrative on these issues is going the wrong way, as a lot of the discussion regarding valve failures, rocker arm failures and head gasket failures so far has been little more than speculation. Comments like "cheaper by the truckload" torque-to-yield head studs and other complaints regarding both the rocker arms and the valves are indicative that the decision regarding the culprit or culprits for the seemingly over-abundance of head gasket failures and valve train component failures has already been made. That said, some testing of the valves by a forum member or an associate of a forum member was supposed to have been conducted, but I do not think the results of such testing has been posted as of yet. Perhaps there is no adequate test available to determine exactly why engine valves fail, and that is why nothing has been posted. Perhaps a better way to go about finding answers would be to have a couple of CRD forum members directly communicate with the actual engineers who designed the R428 engine, and ask them the appropriate questions as to why there seems to be so many problems with the cylinder head and the valve train of the R428 engine. Why were torque-to-yield head bolts used, why are the rocker arms and the valves apparently so weak that they fail often? I do not believe anyone has tried to contact the V.M. Motori engineers regarding these issues. If I am wrong, and indeed a CRD forum member has contacted the engineers who designed the R428 engine, please post a synopsis of those communications for the benefit of all CRD owners.

Author:	mass-hole [ Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:02 am ]
Post subject:	Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added arp?
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote: I believe another poll regarding CRD engine timing belts, rocker arms, and ARP stud upgrades would be redundant and might likely muddy the waters even more than they already are. I think the narrative on these issues is going the wrong way, as a lot of the discussion regarding valve failures, rocker arm failures and head gasket failures so far has been little more than speculation. Comments like "cheaper by the truckload" torque-to-yield head studs and other complaints regarding both the rocker arms and the valves are indicative that the decision regarding the culprit or culprits for the seemingly over-abundance of head gasket failures and valve train component failures has already been made. That said, some testing of the valves by a forum member or an associate of a forum member was supposed to have been conducted, but I do not think the results of such testing has been posted as of yet. Perhaps there is no adequate test available to determine exactly why engine valves fail, and that is why nothing has been posted. Perhaps a better way to go about finding answers would be to have a couple of CRD forum members directly communicate with the actual engineers who designed the R428 engine, and ask them the appropriate questions as to why there seems to be so many problems with the cylinder head and the valve train of the R428 engine. Why were torque-to-yield head bolts used, why are the rocker arms and the valves apparently so weak that they fail often? I do not believe anyone has tried to contact the V.M. Motori engineers regarding these issues. If I am wrong, and indeed a CRD forum member has contacted the engineers who designed the R428 engine, please post a synopsis of those communications for the benefit of all CRD owners. Answering those questions might look like admitting they are at fault so I'd be surprised if they would answer. Maybe if they were former vm engineers or could point a finger at Chrysler trying to cut costs then they would. 1. replaced TB, Rockers, ARP without subsequent valve failure - mileage when work done: ~93,000 - current mileage: 103000 Build Date: 12/9/2005 Factory rockers were in excellent condition and really didn't need to be replaced. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:	GordnadoCRD [ Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
Yes Yes and Yes Work done at 141k (timing belt) and 143.7k miles (lifters, tappets, arp studs, and valves.) No valve failures before, or since. Current mileage is 145k miles

Author:	geordi [ Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
Jeff, if there is an accusation in your drivel, cut to the chase and make it. I don't have the results on paper yet to be able to post them, and when I do, you and everyone else shall have them. The preliminary inspections by graduate students who are studying metal material failures - which seems perfectly suited to this problem - the preliminary results that I have been told are that it does NOT appear to be scour from the EGR soot, there is no evidence of progressive fractures or pitting that could indicate a failure over time from a manufacturing defect or a crack that propagates over time. There is also no evidence of wear from valve guides sticking or wearing that they mentioned. Lastly, there is no evidence that it is a heat-related failure either. It would appear that the metal just gets to a certain point and reaches a limit of how much flexing it will endure, and fails. Their process seems to indicate that what we are looking at is cyclical failure that tracks with the failure mileages - somewhere around 200k miles / 300 billion cycles of the valve. (do not quote me on the number I am not 100% on that and am going from memory at the moment) As each valve opens only once during each revolution of the camshaft and the cams are running at 1/2 speed of the crankshaft, that suggests that for an individual valve it is effectively running at 1/8 engine rpm if my math is right. So that means that we can calculate the number of cycles on a given valve at 200k miles assuming an average speed of 60mph / 2000 rpm. Now, about that whole "why hasn't anyone contacted VM" comment... Why not YOU? You have all the questions, be our guest, contact them and get them to answer you! Nobody is stopping you. The reality is that you want to make all the pronouncements and engineering claims about products, but never produce even the slightest bit of proof, only demand that everyone else go out and find "engineers" and ask them for free information - and then ostensibly provide it to you. But you will not get an answer from VM for exactly the reason stated: It could open them to legal liability for releasing a sub-par product by cutting corners to cut costs, and they won't admit this at all. The truth of the situation is that Chrysler specified to VM that they would only certify the engine for 120k miles, and they didn't care about anything after that point - ergo, they weren't interested in paying for R&D costs to enhance the engine's longevity beyond 120k miles, so that it would outlast their planned warranty by 50k miles - a healthy margin of safety for them, so they wouldn't be on the hook for either severe engine damage OR potentially even changing the timing belt under warranty. But you can go right ahead and call anyone you want to prove me wrong. I'll be right here waiting for you.

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Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added arp? http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86926	Page 1 of 4

Author:	flash7210 [ Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
I think it was a bad batch of valves. Otherwise, the problem would be more wide spread across all R425 and R428 engines in all applications worldwide over the last 15 years. When I did my first timing belt change at 100k miles, I did not remove the sprockets, inner timing cover, and didnt replace the water pump. (Not recommended) I only replaced the timing belt, idler pulleys, and tensioner. At 160k miles, my head was cracked but my valves were still ok. I replaced the head with a used one from England which had a 2007 date stamp. I also replaced the timing belt, idler pulleys, tensioner, water pump, rocker arms, and installed ARP head studs. My rocker arms were still in good condition but replaced them anyway. Its really up to you with how deep you want to get into the engine. It cant hurt to remove intake manifold and inspect the rockers. But once youve done that, its a prime opportunity to install the ARP studs. And if you havent already, delete the EGR.

Author:	CGman [ Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
I think any serious attempt to look into this problem should also include what kind of tune was run on the engine, especially at the time of any major failures. I'm running the GDE Eco tune and the trans tune, but I manually shift it out of O/D alot because I prefer to build up the RPMs a little more than they allow many times. Geordi changed my timing belt/idlers/water pump around 9x,000 miles, I now have almost 130,000 miles...ARP studs are sitting on the shelf waiting for an extra couple of thousand $$ to fall into my lap so I can pay someone to install them No serious failures to date...heading to Engineer Pass in the next day or two.

Author:	minnisp [ Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
thanks guys. so we have: no valve train/head failures after first 100k service 1. mass-hole: 10k miles on tb, rockers, arp 2. GordnadoCRD:4k miles on TB, and 2k miles on rockers, arp 3. CGman: 40k miles on TB valve train/head failures after first 100k service 1. flash: 60k miles on TB - cracked head I'll keep a running total if others are willing to respond.

Author:	minnisp [ Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
hey flash, "I also replaced the timing belt, idler pulleys, tensioner, water pump, rocker arms, and installed ARP head studs. " what's your current mileage? I'll put your 160k mile work on the list ..

Author:	Mountainman [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
I think the valve issue isn't much of an issue. After I tortured my engine from 164k to about 180k with very heavy towing, one boil over (fault of my pioneering a no AC, no VH, no mech fan jeep) and a couple of near boil overs, one cracked head do to the boil over, but no dropped valve. I am inclined to agree that it's probably a bad batch of valves. my engine even had dents in one piston, 2 valves, and a nice scratch on the sleeve from eating a glow plug tip before I owned it. I would consider replacing the exhaust valves though if you have any coolant consumption, as you might as well get the head tested while it's apart

Author:	GordnadoCRD [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
Just for kicks I did the search function for "broken valve". Ended up with 666 occurrences. Must be one hell of a problem. Actually I think the things that make it such a really big deal, is the cost of repairs, and the rarity of competent full repair mechanic shops. It isn't like no other engines suck valves as well. It's that the other engines either aren't interference type, or they don't have Rolls Royce or Ferrari - sized repair bills. People buy these things with the impression that they're getting a suv with the toughness of a Humvee, and mileage of a Geo Metro, that will run and run and run without breaking. My guess is the ones with valves that fail. are ones that were owned early on, by people that just didn't understand diesels, and the importance of PREVENTATIVE maintenance. The whole idea being that things are replaced BEFORE they break, because when they do break, the repairs are way more expensive. There have been an couple examples though, that failed with new valves within the first 1000 miles. That has to be either a valve that was damaged/defective, or someone did something really wrong going back together.

Author:	gtmiller [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
Have had two CRD's 1) 2005 Liberty CRD Sport -replaced timing belt at 100,000. No indication of rocker wear / valve issue. Didn't even bother opening it up. -minimally maintained, no egr delete, no elbow kit. -ran great to 170,000 right about when I crashed it. 2) 2006 Liberty CRD Sport -bought it at 120,000, did the timing belt and rockers immediately , (2 destroyed rockers, 5 bent). -egr delete, elbow kit, fcv delete, provent, meticulously maintained since owning it @ 120,000 -now at 140,000 showing signs of rocker noise. maybe other driveline sounds. not running great. endless project.

Author:	flash7210 [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
minnisp wrote: hey flash, "I also replaced the timing belt, idler pulleys, tensioner, water pump, rocker arms, and installed ARP head studs. " what's your current mileage? I'll put your 160k mile work on the list .. I'm now at 205,000 miles

Author:	WWDiesel [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
flash7210 wrote: I think it was a bad batch of valves. Otherwise, the problem would be more wide spread across all R425 and R428 engines in all applications worldwide over the last 15 years. And if you haven't already, delete the EGR. I tend to agree with your statement on maybe a bad batch of valves! That is why I asked the question are all the valve manufactured in the same location by the same company or were there different suppliers involved? Would be good information to know! And absolutely; get rid of that EGR if you have not already! It can and does cause so many problems with this engine! As to question: 3. replaced TB without subsequent valve failure - mileage when work done: 129k - current mileage: 162k with no issues or indicators of any problems. NO EGR, Weeks elbow kit installed very early on, was one of first five Seth sold and sent out. Stage IV Hot Tune by Yeti along with an adjustable Diablo Extreme Power Puck.

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Author:	krautastic [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
Well if you guys think its a bad batch of valves, you're collecting the wrong information and should be looking at manufacturing dates. Mountainman, you say replace the exhaust valves if you've had coolant consumption. Are you thinking because the exhaust valves will continually see only hot exhaust gas, and if there's coolant going into the chamber that they are getting quenched for some small amount of time and leading to embrittlement? I've never heard of subaru owners swapping out valves when their headgaskets fail. In the other poll there's 6 out of 45 reporting valve failures and I believe that forums tend to gather a certain subset of people, typically people with issues searching for a solution so you'll see higher percentage of issues.

Author:	mass-hole [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
krautastic wrote: Well if you guys think its a bad batch of valves, you're collecting the wrong information and should be looking at manufacturing dates. Mountainman, you say replace the exhaust valves if you've had coolant consumption. Are you thinking because the exhaust valves will continually see only hot exhaust gas, and if there's coolant going into the chamber that they are getting quenched for some small amount of time and leading to embrittlement? I've never heard of subaru owners swapping out valves when their headgaskets fail. In the other poll there's 6 out of 45 reporting valve failures and I believe that forums tend to gather a certain subset of people, typically people with issues searching for a solution so you'll see higher percentage of issues. I agree and there tends to be a "sky is falling" mentality about more things than there needs to be. These jeeps arnt without their issues, but I'm no longer gunna worry about this crap because I'd rather spend my time and money on more exciting things than just trying to keep this thing running past 150k. If it can't do that with regular maintenance and eats a valve then to bad. Ill move on. I did my rocker arms because everyone said they will fail and I was going to be 3/4 the way there because of the timing belt, but mine were totally fine and didnt need replacing. I did my ARP's for similar reasons, but also to future proof for when I get around to a bigger turbo and tune.

Author:	Napheus [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
3. replace TB without subsequent valve failure - mileage when work done: approx. 109,000 miles - current mileage:130,800 That being said I installed ARP studs during my timing belt change. I believe I was lucky the slight coolant losses (approx. 1 quart each winter during a 2 year stretch) provided enough warning of impeding head/head gasket failure that I opted to go the route I believe LMWatBullRun started with the studs. No loss of coolant since. I was fortunate to buy one of the last new ones for sale at a dealer in 2006, so I had done many of the suggested mods to alleviate EGR soot. My rockers were fine with no discernible wear or other issues. Of course my turbo was fine at that time too and recently went south, so not to say anything can't happen. The new Sasquatch turbo fixed that. Right now life is good. Knock on wood. I'm hoping to install the lift pump as I have a 4 day weekend starting Saturday and my tank should be empty returning from work tomorrow.

Author:	minnisp [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
i agree about the manufacture dates. I was organizing a spreadsheet to input the data and post a link to it on this thread or in the valve thread or somewhere. We need to know the vehicle manufacture date, but more importantly for the valves the engine manufacture date. I presume there's a serial number on the engine somewhere maybe we could figure out how to get the engine manf date from the serial number. If there's a correlation of valve failures to a specific engine manufacture date range, that would lend support to the bad-batch of valves theory. there could also just be an out of spec valve every so often in the manufacturing line, which would be more random. There's a few more i'll try to tally them here's what i was testing with see if you can access it .. i could assign some others to update it i'll see if i can figure that out. https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjoXnVa96mPNmIhy3uGbMQMlIynW3w

Author:	WWDiesel [ Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Poll: Have you changed your timing belt, rockers, added
minnisp wrote: i agree about the manufacture dates. I was organizing a spreadsheet to input the data and post a link to it on this thread or in the valve thread or somewhere. We need to know the vehicle manufacture date, but more importantly for the valves the engine manufacture date. I presume there's a serial number on the engine somewhere maybe we could figure out how to get the engine manf date from the serial number. If there's a correlation of valve failures to a specific engine manufacture date range, that would lend support to the bad-batch of valves theory. there could also just be an out of spec valve every so often in the manufacturing line, which would be more random. There's a few more i'll try to tally them here's what i was testing with see if you can access it .. i could assign some others to update it i'll see if i can figure that out. https://1drv.ms/x/s!AjoXnVa96mPNmIhy3uGbMQMlIynW3w I signed into MSO on line, I can open the spreadsheet, but it is READ ONLY, will not let me save any changes... I would add "Head Gasket Leaking/failure" to the index.. My vehicle Man. date from VIN no.: BuildDate: 2005 6 03 Not sure how to find engine build date!