ARP Stud gave up

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:52 am

Well, this is not good.

During engine rebuild number 2 while installing the first ARP stud it snapped / broke in two, showing signs of stretching, the other half is still in the head.

These studs were used and not brand new.

[img][img]http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/racertracer/IMG_20170803_223013452.jpg[/img][/img]

[img][img]http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/racertracer/IMG_20170803_223029087.jpg[/img][/img]

I thought that ARp studs could be reused.

TKB4 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:21 am

They should be able to be reused. They are not torque to yield bolts. I removed a head I had previously installed ARP studs in after a few hundred miles because of a noise like lifter sound and exhaust (found out manifold bolt broke and lifter was ok just sounded louder via loose manifold) I reused mine. Actually I had torqued to 140lbs based on earlier post by I believe IWRbullrun that it had been calculated that 140lb center and 130 outside . Actually torqued to 145Lbs center initially due to out of calibration wrench.

I can't view the photo bucket link but I can imagine what it looks like.

I wonder if your torque wrench might be out of calibration more than mine or you are tightening metal against metal that doesn't have any potential give such as flattening of head gasket.. Since your sleeves cracked the first time ( I assume these are the same ARP bolts)and it was run perhaps there was more force exerted on the studs then. I assume you have correct amount of sleeve elevation above block.

Just curious , what ft lbs did you torque to first time you used them and how much this time? Did you use the lubricant second time ( not that it should matter much)? Was this a center or outside bolt position? Did the bolt insert easily to the hand tight position with the allen wrench? It may be hard to get out regardless, but I bet if one could get pilot hole in it it would probably extract easily but might have to protect threads with a metal tube. I am not sure how a machine shop does it but surely there is a way without drilling hole larger. Kinda doubt heli coil would hold 130lb torque reliably . Is the broken part far below block surface? If not you may be able to dremel a slight groove into it and unscrew it with slot type screwdriver.

No matter what it is a very bad Deal.

How many bad breaks can you get!!! Almost sounds like the junkyard is just calling for this motor, but I have faith you can get it back going again!!!

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:17 am

They should be able to be reused. That's what I thought.

I can't view the photo bucket link but I can imagine what it looks like. Yeah, it's a stretched bolt.

is there another photo hosting location that will allow us to post pictures without the monthly charges?

I wonder if your torque wrench might be out of calibration. It is a brand new brand new 50 - 250 lbs torque wrench. no additional lube.

Since your sleeves cracked the first time ( I assume these are the same ARP bolts)YES

and it was run perhaps there was more force exerted on the studs then. Yes, this could be the case,

these studs were not torqued down by me but someone else, a so called engineer who may have over torqued them.... Iwas present when they were being torqued down, but I never checked what torque the wrench was set at ... my fault for not checking.

Just curious , what ft lbs did you torque to first time you used them and how much this time? the first time should have been 130/120.

Did you use the lubricant second time? NO

Was this a center or outside bolt position? Stud number one in torquing sequence

Did the bolt insert easily to the hand tight position with the Allen wrench? YES

Is the broken part far below block surface? I am going to get it out.

No matter what it is a very bad Deal. "it sure is"

How many bad breaks can you get!!! I won't give up

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86877&p=914167#p914167

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:46 am

At some point that stud was over torqued.
And ARP lube must be used on the top threads, nut face, and washer to ensure proper torquing. And torquing should be done in slow smooth movements.

Contact ARP to see what they say about the broken stud.

APC9199 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:18 pm

flash7210 wrote:

At some point that stud was over torqued.
And ARP lube must be used on the top threads, nut face, and washer to ensure proper torquing. And torquing should be done in slow smooth movements.

Contact ARP to see what they say about the broken stud.

Agreed! The lube is critical to achieving the proper torque on the nut and having it manifest into tensile force instead of twist in the stud. My bet is that your stud twisted due to friction between the nut and washer and couldn't take the combined load, especially if over-torqued or over-heated previously.

krautastic · **Joined:** Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:52 pm **Posts:** 33

Flickr is still free, just rust requires a yahoo email account be created to log in.

Sorry for your problem. I'm halfway through a headgasket job right now, and it is not fun even when things are going right, much less so when things go badly.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:49 pm

racertracer wrote:

is there another photo hosting location that will allow us to post pictures without the monthly charges?

I tried Flickr, too complicated IMHO.
I am using, PostImage:> https://postimgs.org
FREE and simple program and it works...

requires no other accounts, I like it just fine so far :wink:

ImgBB is another one some are switching to:> https://imgbb.com/
simple and FREE!

and yes, assembly lube should always be used when assembling engine parts, especially nuts and bolts. I would get the ARP lube if possible, but if you cannot get it most all parts stores carry an assembly lube which should perform the same function. :roll:

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:41 pm

I spoke to the ARP technical support department this morning and the tech had the following response after I explained to him what had happened.

1. No lube of any kind should be on the lower thread of the stud, the course thread.
2. No lube of any kind should be below the washer, washer should be resting on bone dry metal.
3. Apply a light dab of ARP lube on the top of the washer.
4. Apply a light dab of ARP lube on the bottom of the nut.... not inside on the threads.
5. Apply a light dab of ARP lube around three lines of threads beginning from the top of the washer upward..

I had lube and oil everywhere.

Over torquing the studs during the previous rebuild process might have played a part in this mishap.

The tech allowed me to procure 18 new studs at a modest fee.

The rebuild continues.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:07 am

Here are links to pictures showing stretching and where the break occurred.

https://ibb.co/jobz4v

https://ibb.co/m6K5Ba

https://ibb.co/cmOqBa

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:51 am

WOW, sure looks like that sucker got stretched! :shock:

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:59 pm

What brand of torque wrench was used?

Why you never buy tools like a torque wrench from places like harbor freight and the like.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:17 pm

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-50-250 ... /205914009

I returned it.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:47 pm

racertracer wrote:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-50-250-ft-lbs-1-2-in-Drive-Torque-Wrench-H2DTWA/205914009

I returned it.

Yeah even if you can't afford the better torque wrenches(snapon is the best,there digital versions are top notch) you can get a very good one from CDI.I have 3 snapon torque wrench's(1/4"/3/8"/1/2" digital for work) and a 1/2" CDI that I carry in my Jeep.I'm the only one that uses them,let alone touches them,and they get re-calibrated every year or so and our local snapon driver has a quick test machine on his truck to see how much out they actually are in seconds.Our work supplied torque wrench's are the beam style snapon's which get calibrated every 3 months.

One side note.................

I have not read the actual torque procedure for the CRD head bolts but assuming it's like every other TTY bolt setup you have to coat the TTY bolts with oil before install.You need to adjust the torque value for the ARP's that want them torqued dry.Torquing lubricated fasteners adds like 25%-35% actual torque to the fastener being torqued over dry threads.

joe_ · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:00 am

tjkj2002 wrote:

I have not read the actual torque procedure for the CRD head bolts but assuming it's like every other TTY bolt setup you have to coat the TTY bolts with oil before install.You need to adjust the torque value for the ARP's that want them torqued dry.Torquing lubricated fasteners adds like 25%-35% actual torque to the fastener being torqued over dry threads.

No torque adjustment is needed; you may have misread his post. When installing head studs, the coarse threads going into the block are not lubricated because they are not designed to move when torquing. Only the fine threads are moving (where the top nut goes onto the stud), and they are lubricated.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:30 am

I can't speak for the Harbor Freight wrenches, but the one from Home Depot is the one that I use. I've put it up against someone that had a Snap-on that had been recently checked, and it clicked at exactly the same point as the snap-on. Satisfied me.

I suspect the problem is two-fold for Racertracer: There was oil all around the stud and he didn't use the ARP lube (so the lubrication was different and not applied to spec) and the big one for me: These studs came out of an engine that overheated badly enough to crack three of the liners. I've never seen that bad of carnage in person, but I'd imagine those studs took one hell of a beating.

Obviously, following the procedures from ARP is critical.

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:11 am

The ARP Tech said that he's seen it before where the nut just spins with the washer with no resistance.... no resistance equals no clicks.

The metal where the washer rests on must be bone dry and the same goes for the bottom of the washer.

The washer must rest "fixed" in place when the wrench is turned.

The nut should be the only part spinning when the wrench is turned.

I didn't hear any clicks when I turned the wrench.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:25 am

Are you by any chance sending any of the used studs including the failed one to ARP for their evaluation?
Just curious! :roll:

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:52 pm

I had an extensive conversation with the ARP tech about this and he indicated that I didn't need to send them in. He had seen and heard it before and it is due to the improper use of lube/oil.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:12 pm

racertracer wrote:

I had an extensive conversation with the ARP tech about this and he indicated that I didn't need to send them in. He had seen and heard it before and it is due to the improper use of lube/oil.

Very good to know for all, for future reference!
Unfortunate that you had to be the one to find this out. Guess it is better late than never? :roll:

TKB4 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:25 pm

I would like to point out that the instructions enclosed with the ARP studs is not clearly consistent with what the tech told you.

It states quote Lubricate the stud threads, nuts and washers with ARP end quote lube then install the washers and the nuts onto the studs and tighten them hand tight. I then says to tighten in 3 equal steps to 125 ft lbs in manufacture recommended sequence. But remember these are for the VW TDI.

I wonder if he told you 125 ft lbs because of that (VW TDI) even though originally outside bolts were rotated less degrees which would seem to end up with less torque on these.

Must confess being a good little boy, I read all the directions before installing and determined that first parts didn't apply to me so when later part said apply lube to threads I took it to mean both ends. Reading it a third time, since you could put loctite or permatex on coarse threads it would make sense not to put lubricate on the coarse end but it does not specify which threads but again looks like you would have already put coarse end in block before the lubricant step. They also do not make any mention whatsoever about making sure seat for washer is clean or dry or prepped in any way. They do not say don't put lube on any particular side of washer, or just a few threads of the fine end or no lube in the nut.
I am still not convinced that lube on bottom coarse threads will make much difference. The target torque whatever it is should still end up when the head to block pressure is the desired amount . Unless the lube would somehow let the whole bolt loosen by unscrewing. I doubt this since even the original tty bolts are oiled i believe.

What happened to ARP recommending 130ft lbs center and 120ft lbs outside bolts if this guy said 125ft lbs presumably on all bolts? I really think he just made an honest mistake on that. But if the rest of what he said is true they need to clearly state do not apply lube to the coarse thread end that will go into block and do not put lube on bottom surface of washer and make sure seat area for washer is clean dry and make some recommendation about how far to let the top of stud protrude from head.

I though I read somewhere on forum to put washer and nut on tighten nut to flush with top of stud (fine end of course) and then put whole stud in hand tight. I could be wrong.

Enough of a rant

WHAT I WANT TO SEE is someone doing headdgasket replacement to install some or all of the factory head bolts according to FSM then check them with torque wrench to see what the actual torque values. This could even be done on the old head gasket or even moving one ARP at a time to check 2 or 3 with the new head gasket. Say start at 100ft lbs and increase 5 lb increments or so then may check another one or two 5lbs below that and increase 1 at a time. Do this on inner and outer bolts and see what torque the factory specs end up . This would at least give use a minimum for the ARP s and since the factory ones generally lasted a pretty long time before they stretched if the ARP s don't stretch even at this value they should last indefinitely. I saw up to 115ft lbs removing some original head bolts and as low as 75 to 80 ft lbs but I realize that isn't very accurate indication of original torque value whether stretched or not.

ARP Stud gave up

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