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 Post subject: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:01 pm 
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been thinking (and drinking!) about some upgrades AFTER the dead turbo and everything else is replaced. Specifically, thinking of having a custom radiator built........a 4 core thick rad, with a thick intercooler stacked on top. Custom mounting brackets and shrouds. Both would have twin fans (pushers) and a huge 24" rear electric puller fan with shroud. My idea is to stack both units, with custom brackets and shrouds. And then get rid of the plastic intercooler and the radiator and relocate the tranny cooler elsewhere with a DeRale remote mount with fan cooler.

something like this....you get the idea.....

intercooler (it would have switchable twin fans and would be on top of the radiator

Image

radiator (would not be exactly as pictured...just trying a concept)


Image


my theory is that the factory cooling system is a PAIN IN THE booty to service, and is overbuilt and oversized for this rig. By using on demand pusher fans i feel that a WELL BUILT smaller custom unit (and the same for the intercooler) , would be more than adequate for our jeeps, and for towing and wheeling. And the factory clutch fan and clutch would be removed for good. (hence being able to stuff a thicker intercooler/rad into the bay

rough sketch


Image

gimmie some thoughts! :) :5SHOTS:

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Last edited by Bushman5 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:11 pm 
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I wouldn't say the stock cooling system is overbuilt:

The intercooler sucks and gets maybe 60% cooling efficiency once heat soaked. I easily see IAT's in excess of 180 degrees. That leaves a massive amount of air density in the table.

I am right at the engine cooling systems upper limits just by having bigger tires and a hot tune. If I run the AC on full while climbing i80 out of slc(3000 feet) I can get the needle to start creeping right and have to kill the AC and downshift to 3rd to get my fan spoiled up.

I also just purchased a 20x10x3.5 intercooler and am planning on moving the AC condenser and trans cooler to the bottom half the the radiator while to Cac takes up the top half. My theory is that by not having the AC condenser, cac, and rad all in a stack it should help improve the engine cooling while also having a far more efficient cac.

My issue with having a half height radiator is that you eliminate half the cooling flow area. Even though you may make it thicker and retain the fin area, you've now cut ur cooling flow in half, and not only that, but the air is going to be much hotter once it reaches the back of the radiator so heat transfer will be less efficient. I would prefer to see a 20x20x2" thick radiator in the stock position. That way you retain the full frontal area and double the thickness.

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Last edited by mass-hole on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:23 pm 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
:POPCORN:


oh shush..... :ROTFL:

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:25 pm 
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mass-hole wrote:
I wouldn't say the stock cooling system is overbuilt:

The intercooler sucks and gets maybe 60% cooling efficiency once heat soaked. I easily see IAT's in excess of 180 degrees. That leaves a massive amount of air density in the table.

I am right at the engine cooling systems upper limits just by having bigger tires and a hot tune. If I run the AC on full while climbing i80 out of slc(3000 feet) I can get the needle to start creeping right and have to kill the AC and downshift to 3rd to get my fan spoiled up.

I also just purchased a 20x10x3.5 intercooler and am planning on moving the AC condenser and trans cooler to the bottom half the the radiator while to Cac takes up the top half. My theory is that by not having the AC condenser, cac, and rad all in a stack it should help improve the engine cooling while also having a far more efficient cac.

My issue with having a half height radiator is that you eliminate half the cooling flow area. Even though you may make it thicker and retain the fin area, you've now cut ur cooling flow in half, and not only that, but the air is going to be much hotter once it reaches the back of the radiator so heat transfer will be less efficient. I would prefer to see a 20x20x2" thick radiator in the stock position. That way you retain the full frontal area and double the thickness.


but there would be two pusher fans on the front of the rad, and a HUGE puller fan on the rear (with a custom shroud). Modern electric fans move insane amounts of air, and if need be, one could still retain the belt drive fan, but put a better fan on get rid of the clutch. Also the rad would be a sideflow style rad......flowing equally thru its depth, but zigzaging downwards....know what I mean.....

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2005 Jeep Liberty CRD 271'000+ KM's, ORM, Muffler Delete, MOROSO oil/air separator unit, 1000 CA battery, ARB Bull bumper, OME coils/shocks 2" lift. Custom BushRoo roof rack & Bush Joey hitch rack. Mobil1-301 oil filter & Mobil 1 DELVAC ESP 0W40 Full Synthetic oil, custom rear hatch cargo rack. RACOR 245 filterhead


Last edited by Bushman5 on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:36 pm 
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ok what about this idea.........a BANKS INtercooler, mounted ON the ARB BUMPER , protected by the bull bar and a welded mesh screen in front of it. Two pusher fans for when your sitting in traffic , pulling hard, or going up steep mountain forest service roads......

Image

THEN...have a custom FULL size rad in the normal location in the engine bay, with custom tranny , oil, and powersteering coolers mounted to it. Pusher and puller fans......

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:46 am 
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Bushman5 wrote:
mass-hole wrote:
I wouldn't say the stock cooling system is overbuilt:

The intercooler sucks and gets maybe 60% cooling efficiency once heat soaked. I easily see IAT's in excess of 180 degrees. That leaves a massive amount of air density in the table.

I am right at the engine cooling systems upper limits just by having bigger tires and a hot tune. If I run the AC on full while climbing i80 out of slc(3000 feet) I can get the needle to start creeping right and have to kill the AC and downshift to 3rd to get my fan spoiled up.

I also just purchased a 20x10x3.5 intercooler and am planning on moving the AC condenser and trans cooler to the bottom half the the radiator while to Cac takes up the top half. My theory is that by not having the AC condenser, cac, and rad all in a stack it should help improve the engine cooling while also having a far more efficient cac.

My issue with having a half height radiator is that you eliminate half the cooling flow area. Even though you may make it thicker and retain the fin area, you've now cut ur cooling flow in half, and not only that, but the air is going to be much hotter once it reaches the back of the radiator so heat transfer will be less efficient. I would prefer to see a 20x20x2" thick radiator in the stock position. That way you retain the full frontal area and double the thickness.


but there would be two pusher fans on the front of the rad, and a HUGE puller fan on the rear (with a custom shroud). Modern electric fans move insane amounts of air, and if need be, one could still retain the belt drive fan, but put a better fan on get rid of the clutch. Also the rad would be a sideflow style rad......flowing equally thru its depth, but zigzaging downwards....know what I mean.....


And this may not be the case with your setup, but my experience was that an electric fan was not capable of moving enough air at freeway speeds. I tried a custom shroud and efan on my jeep and found that I was actually better off with no fan or shroud at all when on the highway. It still did overheat but not as quickly(and obviously it totally sucked at slow speeds). Mine needed the mechanical fan to stay cool. The mech fan is spinning at 3000 RPM when the engine is at 2000 so even just at 65mph cruising in 5th gear its probably moving more than any Efan could. It's bigger, the blades are more aggresive and it spins as fast or faster.

This tells me the efan was actually a restriction at freeway speeds and that the natural flow through the cooling stack was more than what the fan could pull.

Maybe it wont be an issue with your setup, I dont know.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:22 pm 
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The stock cooling system is the correct size and efficiency for a 100% stock KJ(CRD or otherwise),once you start modifying it can quickly be not enough.Sorry but those "hot tunes" create alot more heat and heat soak then the stock cooling system can handle when pushed hard.What you want to do will drastically reduce cooling while adding a huge electrical drain on your alternator which will add drag to the engine creating more heat and reduced power.Not to mention killing the alternator quick.5 or 6 e-fans your talking about 70amp load with all of them turned on,if not more depending on the fan.


By the way aftermarket electric cooling fans suck,OE cooling fans(not including honda,kia,hyundai as they just suck) are far better and move more air then any aftermarket fan.Stock OE nylon mechanical fans are better then any metal fan,OE or aftermarket, but suffer if used with a clutch.A direct drive OE nylon fan or a mechanically locked OE nylon fan(Ford and some GM's) is better then silicone clutch fan assembly.


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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:09 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
The stock cooling system is the correct size and efficiency for a 100% stock KJ(CRD or otherwise),once you start modifying it can quickly be not enough.Sorry but those "hot tunes" create alot more heat and heat soak then the stock cooling system can handle when pushed hard.What you want to do will drastically reduce cooling while adding a huge electrical drain on your alternator which will add drag to the engine creating more heat and reduced power.Not to mention killing the alternator quick.5 or 6 e-fans your talking about 70amp load with all of them turned on,if not more depending on the fan.


By the way aftermarket electric cooling fans suck,OE cooling fans(not including honda,kia,hyundai as they just suck) are far better and move more air then any aftermarket fan.Stock OE nylon mechanical fans are better then any metal fan,OE or aftermarket, but suffer if used with a clutch.A direct drive OE nylon fan or a mechanically locked OE nylon fan(Ford and some GM's) is better then silicone clutch fan assembly.


I agree. Its totally adequate for the stock jeep. But I dont think there a lot of people here who are running stock tunes on their CRD's though so i think it would be a benefit to improve the cooling system. These CRD's have provisions to prevent overheating by cutting fuel and reducing boost at altitude and unless something goes really wrong with the cooling system you should never have a catastrophic overheating event.

The problem is, once the coolant goes past 100C the fuel cuts FAST. You would never know if you were at 100C unless you were actively monitoring it with Torque or something because the temp needle wont move until around 105 I believe. If you are towing in the mountains on a hot day it is not hard to push these things past 100C and then you are sitting there trying to drag a trailer up a hill with even less power than they had to begin with. GDE even says that in tow testing their tunes they just kept the thing floored and the temp would rise up until it cut enough fuel to balance everything out.

I do think that a new intercooler is going to be a big improvement. I dont know why but the stock intercooler sucks. It could be the external fin density. When I had it out it was by far the least dense of the 3 coolers and you could basically hold it up in front of you and probably watch a movie through it. I also suspect that the entire core may not be getting charge air flow because the air has a long distance to travel to get to the bottom.

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Last edited by mass-hole on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:13 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
The stock cooling system is the correct size and efficiency for a 100% stock KJ(CRD or otherwise),once you start modifying it can quickly be not enough.Sorry but those "hot tunes" create alot more heat and heat soak then the stock cooling system can handle when pushed hard.What you want to do will drastically reduce cooling while adding a huge electrical drain on your alternator which will add drag to the engine creating more heat and reduced power.Not to mention killing the alternator quick.5 or 6 e-fans your talking about 70amp load with all of them turned on,if not more depending on the fan.


By the way aftermarket electric cooling fans suck,OE cooling fans(not including honda,kia,hyundai as they just suck) are far better and move more air then any aftermarket fan.Stock OE nylon mechanical fans are better then any metal fan,OE or aftermarket, but suffer if used with a clutch.A direct drive OE nylon fan or a mechanically locked OE nylon fan(Ford and some GM's) is better then silicone clutch fan assembly.


70 amp just running too. If all those things turn on simultaneously your headlights will probably dim.

I know on the Trailblazer SS efan kits they have a delayed relay setup so that the two fans dont come on simultaneously. One comes on then the other comes on a couple seconds later.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:38 am 
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This is from BShooter.
He emailed me these pics last year.

Image
Image

As you can see, he changed a lot up front.
The intercooler is obvious.
Whats no so easy to see is the radiator.
Its a aftermarket universal type and is a "dual-pass."
Dual-pass meaning that the top and bottom halves of the radiator are divided.
Coolant enters the top passenger side of the radiator, flows over to the drivers side, then down to the bottom half, and out the bottom passenger side of the radiator.
Kinda convenient because both the engine water pump inlet and thermostat outlet are on the passenger side.
Does it cool better than a regular crossflow radiator? I dont know.
There is some debate about it because the coolant flow is restricted and has a longer path to travel. But coolant therefore stays in the radiator longer.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:03 pm 
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That's Cool!!
(pun intended)

The first thing I noticed was "where the heck is the overflow tank?"
second was "dang that's bright"

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Dual pass or quad pass was what I was refering to .

Ok how about a three core or 4 core dual pass rad, full size factory mount location , with engine fan, and a massive electrical pusher fan ( I have one off a DC10 Cat that moves about 10;000 cfm ) and a new better (banks) intercooler, mounted on the ARB bumper......

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:47 pm 
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:shock:
Why are you so intent on mounting the intercooler on the bumper?
You'd be cutting big holes through your grille for the boost hoses.
May as well just cut all the slots out of the grille and put the intercooler in the grille.

If you want some sort of multi-pass radiator, start searching around and find one that will fit.
summitracing.com is a good place to start. They have intercoolers too.

And seriously, you only really need one fan. If one fan moves enough air and keeps things cool then thats all you need.
Multiple electric fans will put an excessive load on your alternator.

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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Location: Oregon Coast Dairy Country. Land of stumps, dumps, and "Liquid Pumps"
Be$ide$, all thi$ cu$tom $tuff co$t$ big buck$, and unle$$ I'm mi$taken, you already owe your dad for towing according to your earlier po$t.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 150K

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

YETI Custom Tune
Flowmaster 8325508
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15976889
PATC Custom Billet
2010 Ram Hemi Trans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
Cooper 51770


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 Post subject: Re: Custom radiator and intercooler?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:12 pm 
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I dont really see the purpose of a dual pass radiator other than to put the inlet and outlet on the same side. You cut the flow path in half and double the length so the resonance time should be the same and should receive the same level of cooling, but with more flow resistance. I'd think a 2" thick single pass plug and play radiator might be more than enough.

Quote:
Thicker radiators do have slightly more airflow resistance than thinner radiators but the difference is minimal. A 4" radiator has only approximately 10% more airflow resistance than a 2" radiator.

In past years, hot rodders and racers would sometimes install a thicker radiator and actually notice decreased cooling. They erroneously came to the conclusion that the air could not flow adequately through the thick radiator, and therefore became fully heat-saturated before exiting the rear of the radiator core. The actual explanation for the decreased cooling was not the airflow, but the coolant flow. The older radiators used the narrow tube design with larger cross section. Coolant must flow through a radiator tube at enough velocity to create turbulence.

The turbulence allows the water in the center of the tube to be forced against the outside of the tube, which allows for better thermal transfer between the coolant and the tube surface. The coolant velocity decreases, and subsequently its ability to create the required turbulence, increases in direct relation to the increase in thickness. If the thickness of the core is doubled, the coolant velocity is halved. Modern radiators, using wide tubes and less cross section area, require less velocity to achieve optimum thermal transfer. The older radiators benefited from baffling inside the tanks and forcing the coolant through a serpentine configuration. This increased velocity and thus the required turbulence was restored.

Radiators with a higher number of fins will cool better than a comparable radiator with less fins, assuming it is clean. However, a higher fin count is very difficult to keep clean. Determining the best comprimise depends on the actual conditions of operation.

Double pass radiators require 16X more presure to flow the same volume of coolant through them, as compared to a single pass radiator. Triple pass radiators require 64X more pressure to maintain the same volume. Automotive water pumps are a centrifugal design, not a positive displacement, so with a double pass radiator, the presure is doubled and flow is reduced by approximately 33%. Modern radiator designs, using wide/thin cross section tubes, seldom benefit from multiple pass configurations. The decrease in flow caused by multiple passes offsets any benefits of a high-flow water pump.

Gross flow radiators are superior to upright radiators because the radiator cap is positioned on the low pressure (suction) side of the system. This prevents the pressure created by a high-flow water pump from forcing coolant past the radiator cap at high RPM. As mentioned earlier in the radiator cap section, an upright radiator should be equipped with the highest pressure cap recommended by the manufacturer. The system will still force coolant past the cap at sustained high RPM.


My plan was to place the 20x10 intercooler in front of the top of the radiator and dedicate 3.5 of the grille openings to intercooler via a duct. The remaining 3.5 openings would be allowed to flow directly to the bottom of the radiator for direct cooling. This would allow increased cooling of the coolant by not pre heating the air with a 350 degree air charge, but also force air through the far more efficient CAC. With a bar and plate intercooler you can expect about 45% of the frontal area is actually flow area for the cooling air so it works out to about 50% of the grill opening. You would still get the full grill area flowing to the radiator but 1/2 of it would not be pre heated by the CAC.

Now a 10,000 CFM fan, that I would be interested in.

Take a look at Bell Intercoolers. You can custom order pretty much any sized core with a variety of end tank configurations. Each end tank can be different if you want. I bought one from them and posted here about it a couple weeks back but havent gotten around to the install with work travel.

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