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| Desperately need some help http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87075 |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Desperately need some help |
I'm doing my timing belt job and working on getting things back together. I won't get into the details but I may have lost time on the exhaust cam. I do have the alignment pin in now, but is that for sure timed correctly? I've seen a thread about this before but I'm not finding it. Kinda freaking out. Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | GordnadoCRD [ Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
If the correct pin is installed, and the crank pin is correctly installed, then no matter where the timing marks are on the pulley, the cam is correctly timed. One way to check quickly, if the key broaches on the front of the cams are directly opposing each other (3oclock exhaust, and 9oclock intake) between the two cam 'noses', they are in the correct place. |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
OK. I have the flywheel and intake can pinned. Neither of those never lost time. The notches on the cam are what I'm going off now that I have the pin back in. Exhaust is at 3:00. Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | GordnadoCRD [ Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
put on your cam pulleys and bolts - leave them loose put on your timing belt and tensioner set the timing belt tension, don't over-torque the bolt snug one cam pulley bolt - not torqued - just snug enough to hold it from spinning when you pull the cam timing pin. pull the cam timing pin counter-hold the sprocket and torque that cam bolt snug the other cam pulley bolt - not torqued - just snug enough to hold it from spinning when you pull the cam timing pin. pull that cam timing pin counter-hold the sprocket and torque that cam bolt pull the crank timing pin crank the engine over by hand a few times, make sure there is nothing binding or interfering. Check your timing belt tension again - re-set if necessary optional very good idea - clean all the old marks from the cam pulleys and back housing - make new alignment marks for slip reference if needed in the future. reassemble. |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
Now that I've settled down a bit, I think I have it. Pins were both loose after torquing. Now I have something else though. I have the issue of the belt not fitting over the tension. I've watched the video where the nose of the crank is turned back and forth within the limits of the flywheel pin, but I still can't get the the belt to fit. There seems to be good tension all the way around. The cogs of the belt don't seem to be meshing with the teeth on the crank pulley. Is there any other trick to this? Right now the pins in the head both seem to be tight but probably need to rock the cams back and forth. Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | GordnadoCRD [ Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
1 - the belt should be on and tensioned, before the cam pulleys are torqued. Otherwise they will move out of timing when you tension the belt. 2 - the cams should not be pinned when their respective pulley bolts are being torqued. This will ruin your timing pins and quite possibly your cams. 3 - there should be no rocking back and forth of the cams to get the timing belt on. The belt needs to be put on while the cam pulleys are loose, so they can move without moving the cams when you tension the belt. Regarding the timing belt, it seems there are a couple ways to go about it. I found it easiest to put it on minus the tensioner pulley, and then put that on last. Push it up tight with my left hand, and thread the bolt in with my right. Once the bolt was finger tight, I set the tension with the tool and torqued the bolt. Make sure you follow the previous post steps exactly in order. This is one job that has a very specific order. If you skip a step and come back, something will be out of whack when you finish. If you skip a detail in a step, something will be out of whack when you finish. |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
Thanks. I'll give that try in the morning. Points 1 and 2 are different from the video. With the cams not pinned how do I know they keep time? If I'm counter-holding why do I need to pull the pins? Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | GordnadoCRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
HER_CRD wrote: Thanks. I'll give that try in the morning. Points 1 and 2 are different from the video. With the cams not pinned how do I know they keep time? If I'm counter-holding why do I need to pull the pins? Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk You may be able to perfectly counter-hold two different length levers while one is moving with 80lbs foot torque and the other is dead still, but I can't. If I don't pull the pins it will damage the tool tips and can even bend the camshaft due to the leverage multiplied by the timing pins. I know they keep time, by snugging the pulley bolt enough that they won't slip, and because I test them when I'm done by turning the engine over by hand, making sure nothing is binding, and re-installing the timing pins after cranking it over a few times. -sorry- I forgot the checking step. After checking / adjusting the timing belt tension, Re-install the crank timing pin. Verify that the cam timing pins can go in easily. If neither one does, turn the crank fully one more time and re-install the crank pin. Then check the cam timing pins again. If either does not, or neither goes in, something has changed and the procedure needs to be done over. |
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| Author: | racertracer [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
Everything has been covered here but I have to add something to this that was pertinent to my timing belt install. Pinning the flywheel was a problem for me. There's multiple holes there and I pinned the wrong hole on the flywheel. If one trusts pinning the flywheel hole to be OK then you may screw up the timing. My exhaust and intake cams were pinned properly in their respective holes and I thought that my crankshaft was pinned correctly also but it wasn't. I had inserted it in another random hole on the flywheel.... the crank was not aligned and if it weren't for Jim (Geordi) and his experience with this set up, I probably would have had to replace the rockers again. The proper way to do it is to NEVER ever trust that flywheel pin hole as the proper way to position the crankshaft. The proper way to time it is by positioning the notch on the crankshaft bolt first. On the front of the engine and to the side of the crankshaft bolt is a small notch. You feel it with your fingernail and can see it if you have good eyesight or use your mobile phone camera to take a picture and locate it that way. Turn the crank and position that notch to the three O'clock position, now pin the cams, then turn the crankshaft until the notch points to the three O'clock position and then pin the flywheel hole so that the crank is locked in place. Then you will have the flywheel pinned in the correct hole and the engine timed properly. |
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| Author: | WWDiesel [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
You are totally correct! A person should always make sure the crankshaft visual notch or dimple as some call it, is at 3:00 BEFORE inserting the flywheel alignment pin! Then pin the camshafts. If the camshaft alignment pins will not go in, unpin crankshaft and rotate the crankshaft one full rotation (360 deg.s) with the crankshaft notch at the 3:00 position again and pin. The camshaft alignment pins should now go into their alignment bores.... Picture: 
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
Thanks guys. When I pinned the flywheel I fished around that hole a few times to make sure it was a small hole before I jumped in taking everything apart. I'll check for the timing mark on the nose of the crank and see where I am. Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | racertracer [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
WW... great pic. Here is what I did to complete the timing. With the belt was off, I aligned the crankshaft and pinned it, then with the belt still off I pinned both of the cams. With the belt off the pins flowed right in with ease. Here's how I installed the Belt. I did not install the cam gearwheels yet ... I kept those off. I installed the belt starting at the bottom around the crankshaft then around the water pump and around the fuel pump making sure that the notch for the fuel pump was in it's proper position and around the idler pulleys and the tensioner making sure that the tensioner roted all the way to the left so that the tension is released. Now I positioned the intake cam gearwheel in place and loosely screwed the bolt in place. Then I did the same to the exhaust cam gearwheel. The gear wheels need to spin the crankshaft is secured and will not turn because the flywheel pin is still in place. Now I use a spanner on the intake gearwheel and pull the belt tight with one hand the use a socket wrench on the other to secure the bolt on that gearwheel hand tight and then move to the exhaust gearwheel and use the spanner wrench on it in the same fashion as I did on the intake and hand tighten it. The belt is now hand tight around the crankshaft, fuel pump and both cam gearwheels. What remains to be done is to go down to the tensioner and position it so the belt is tight and lock the tensioner bolt in place. now check the belt for tension at the longest span first (like the span of the belt between the crankshaft and the fuel pump) then span between the cams and then the span near the tensioner. It should be pretty tight. Now torque the intake and exhaust cam wheels to their proper settings but do not set torque the tensioner yet. Here is the other important step .... hand rotating. Remove the timing pins ... all three of them and begin to rotate the engine several times, I rotated mine approximately 8 - 12 times. Rotate the engine clockwise using a socket wrench on the crankshaft, you will notice that the tensioner has moved, it released tension. This is the point where you will need to reset the tension on the tensioner again. Torque the tensioner to its proper setting and retest the tensioner for movement by rotating the engine again. Fill the engine with oil and coolant, start it and let it run for a half hour or more with the timing cover off so that you can inspect the tensioner for movement again, belt alignment and anything else that may be out of sync. |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
OK. The dimple on the crank nose was at 3:00. Got real lucky there. So I have the belt on now. Much easier than before. Now the high pressure fuel pump is off time from where I marked it before. Is there any trick to holding that? Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | flash7210 [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
The timing mark on the injection pump is not critical. If its off by a notch or two you will be fine. |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
Belt is on and tight (done it a few times now). One thing that I notice right now is if the can gears were actually touching the teeth would mesh. The first time the teeth were parallel with each other so they wouldn't mesh. Does this matter? There seems to be no slack in the belt anywhere. Here is what it looks like now.  Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
I read through all your posts a few times and then with the cams loose (bolts finger tight) I put on the belt and tensioner. I then pulled my can lock pins and torqued the cam gears. When I went to rotate the engine I got maybe a quarter turn before it bound up. So I timed the flywheel and took off the the cam gears to find the cams way out of time. How can keep the cams from turning with the pins pulled out? Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
So I've tried gradually tightening the can gears a few times now and I can feel the exhaust can slip a bit. Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
I was reading through some other threads I was able to find and there was discussion of torquing the cam gears after setting and torquing the belt tensioner. I tried that on the intake cam and still lost time after torquing. Here is where it landed. I checked timing on that cam a few times before reaching 80 ft-lbs by temporarily putting the pin back in.  Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | GordnadoCRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
HER_CRD wrote: Belt is on and tight (done it a few times now). One thing that I notice right now is if the can gears were actually touching the teeth would mesh. The first time the teeth were parallel with each other so they wouldn't mesh. Does this matter? There seems to be no slack in the belt anywhere. Here is what it looks like now. Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk The relative position of the pulley teeth are not critical. The relative position of the cams is. Once the pulley bolts are in, the only way to check cam position is with the timing pins, after turning the engine over by hand, an even number of times, stopping at 90 degrees ATDC |
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| Author: | HER_CRD [ Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Desperately need some help |
I think I have that part figured out. I've been able to consistently get the belt on and have good tension on the stretch between the crank pulley and high pressure pump pulley. Now though I can't keep the cams from slipping out of time when I torque the cam gears. Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk |
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