LOST JEEPS :: View topic - Jake Brake / Engine brake

I dont beleive this has been covered yet. If it has point me in the right direction.

To all the dieselheads we have here:

Would it be possible to install a engine brake on the liberty? I think it would be great for trailering. I cant quite imagine what it would sound like though. Anyone else thought about this?

If you need addidtional trailer braking, suggest looking into an electomagnetic retarder. These are off the shelf items that fits on the driveshaft between the transmission and the differential. Uses an electomagnet to slow the driveshaft. This it also completely silent. Both Jacobs and Telma make them.

I am not sure if the type of exhaust brake I am referring to makes the kind of noise that a real jake brake does. It simply closes off the exhaust to provide backpressure. The type on big rigs are much more complicated than that. It looks like dodge has certified at least one auto tranny for either the Banks or Jacobs brake I think the 48RE? I just need to find out if our tranny is also used in diesel trucks or not and if they gave it the OK. Then we would have to find out if simply turning off the overdrive would prevent coasting. So does anyone know if the tranny stays engaged while coasting? I couldnt really say myself, my crd wont be here till monday :cry:

RFCRD wrote:

I certainly will that sounds interesting to me. It also sounds like an easy way to make a regenerative braking system for a homemade hybrid.

Jeger wrote:

I certainly will that sounds interesting to me. It also sounds like an easy way to make a regenerative braking system for a homemade hybrid.

Did someone say Regenerative Braking?

Got that on my electric pickup. Kostov 30 HP DC traction motor with interpole windings, with Zapi H3 144 volt 800 amp controller with regen. Hit the brakes, the controller flips over the contacts on the traction motor, and the motor then becomes a generator, pumping power back into the battery pack. Honest to god engine braking, almost to a dead stop, no matter what gear, and fills up the fuel tank to boot!

I've got one of the few electric conversions in the country that actually has working reliable (over 12K miles) regen using a direct current traction motor actually incorporated into the controller, and not a separate strap-on system. When I've hit the brakes with the motor wound up close to rated speed (4000 RPM), I've seen over 150 amps getting pumped back into a 120 volt battery pack, and that was on the lowest power setting. I've actually broke the tires loose stopping on a wet road.

retmil46 wrote:

Jeger wrote:

I certainly will that sounds interesting to me. It also sounds like an easy way to make a regenerative braking system for a homemade hybrid.

Did someone say Regenerative Braking?

You seem like my kind of guy. Just to stay halfway on topic... what do you think about the electromagnetic retarder/DC motor for slow controlled hill descent? And you could charge some batteries for an inverter at the same time. heck while we are at it why couldnt that battery pack power the dc motor to provide a limp home option if you should run out of fuel or otherwise break down.

My CRD does a better than average job of engine braking if I just take it out of overdrive.
Also just because you have an automatic, it doesn't mean you have to use it that way.
Put your rig in low range off roading and for many situations you'll have to much engine braking, lot's of time I have to add a little accelerator pedal going downhill.

3. I've actually only seen one driveline brake in my whole life(but I'm not real old and that doesn't mean they're not out there!!) and it was on a total custom International heavy hauler. The owner said it worked good but it cost him $10000. Don't know if I believe him on the price. If driveline brakes were effective and cheap I would have seen many by now. I'm not familiar with them so can't rule them out but I have a hunch your dreaming on this one too.

Author:	Jeger [ Fri May 19, 2006 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Jake Brake / Engine brake
I dont beleive this has been covered yet. If it has point me in the right direction. To all the dieselheads we have here: Would it be possible to install a engine brake on the liberty? I think it would be great for trailering. I cant quite imagine what it would sound like though. Anyone else thought about this?

Author:	Reggie [ Fri May 19, 2006 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Jake Brake / Engine brake
Jeger wrote: I dont beleive this has been covered yet. If it has point me in the right direction. To all the dieselheads we have here: Would it be possible to install a engine brake on the liberty? I think it would be great for trailering. I cant quite imagine what it would sound like though. Anyone else thought about this? Are they great for trailering? Yes - without a doubt. Would I install one on my rig? No way in he**! With all of the problems that Jeep is having with this tranny, there is no way I would give DC an excuse not to perform warranty work. I don't know if DC even allows it on the Dodge Cummins with the automatic because these days. For a while they would not warranty the installation of an exhaust brake on the Cccummins with an automatic. Let DC work through the tranny issues before going that direction.

Author:	oldnavy [ Fri May 19, 2006 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:
If you go into resort areas or Nat Parks don't get caught using a Jake, it is a noise thing and in some place the fines are stiff.

Author:	BCool [ Fri May 19, 2006 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:
Go for it man, let us know how it works, sounds like a great mod.

Author:	RFCRD [ Fri May 19, 2006 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Jake Brake / Engine brake
Jeger wrote: I dont beleive this has been covered yet. If it has point me in the right direction. To all the dieselheads we have here: Would it be possible to install a engine brake on the liberty? I think it would be great for trailering. I cant quite imagine what it would sound like though. Anyone else thought about this? This dieselhead thinks you won't find one. Have yet to see a true Jacobs brake (the type that works the exhaust valves) for this motor. Besides, you would probably have to cut the center out of your hood, blower box style. If you are referring to the gate valve style exhaust brake found on some Cummins, don't think it will work on an EGR motor. If you need addidtional trailer braking, suggest looking into an electomagnetic retarder. These are off the shelf items that fits on the driveshaft between the transmission and the differential. Uses an electomagnet to slow the driveshaft. This it also completely silent. Both Jacobs and Telma make them.

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Jake Brake / Engine brake http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8708	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Jeger [ Fri May 19, 2006 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:
I am not sure if the type of exhaust brake I am referring to makes the kind of noise that a real jake brake does. It simply closes off the exhaust to provide backpressure. The type on big rigs are much more complicated than that. It looks like dodge has certified at least one auto tranny for either the Banks or Jacobs brake I think the 48RE? I just need to find out if our tranny is also used in diesel trucks or not and if they gave it the OK. Then we would have to find out if simply turning off the overdrive would prevent coasting. So does anyone know if the tranny stays engaged while coasting? I couldnt really say myself, my crd wont be here till monday

Author:	Jeger [ Fri May 19, 2006 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Jake Brake / Engine brake
RFCRD wrote: If you need addidtional trailer braking, suggest looking into an electomagnetic retarder. These are off the shelf items that fits on the driveshaft between the transmission and the differential. Uses an electomagnet to slow the driveshaft. This it also completely silent. Both Jacobs and Telma make them. I certainly will that sounds interesting to me. It also sounds like an easy way to make a regenerative braking system for a homemade hybrid.

Author:	Ripster [ Fri May 19, 2006 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:
1 it is not needed and the engine will hold and slowly slow it down. 2 even some of the big cummins diesels can't handle a jake brake. 3 use caution in modifying parts of this CRD, the tranny is a weak point, unless you have money to burn. 4 ditto what Reggie stated

Author:	RFCRD [ Fri May 19, 2006 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:
Jeger wrote: I am not sure if the type of exhaust brake I am referring to makes the kind of noise that a real jake brake does. It simply closes off the exhaust to provide backpressure. The type on big rigs are much more complicated than that. It looks like dodge has certified at least one auto tranny for either the Banks or Jacobs brake I think the 48RE? I just need to find out if our tranny is also used in diesel trucks or not and if they gave it the OK. Then we would have to find out if simply turning off the overdrive would prevent coasting. So does anyone know if the tranny stays engaged while coasting? I couldnt really say myself, my crd wont be here till monday The device you describe is an exhaust brake. It's a slide gate across the exhaust between the turbo exhaust and the cat. Big mechanical issue you will encounter: In order to make sufficient backpressure for this to work you have to close the EGR valve. If not, the backpressure will blow-apart your CAC. Jacobs even had to redesign their system to work on an EGR engine.

Author:	RFCRD [ Fri May 19, 2006 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Jake Brake / Engine brake
Jeger wrote: RFCRD wrote: If you need addidtional trailer braking, suggest looking into an electomagnetic retarder. These are off the shelf items that fits on the driveshaft between the transmission and the differential. Uses an electomagnet to slow the driveshaft. This it also completely silent. Both Jacobs and Telma make them. I certainly will that sounds interesting to me. It also sounds like an easy way to make a regenerative braking system for a homemade hybrid. Similiar technology, been around over 20 years. The ones I saw only made heat, lots of it. This device is real common on buses in Europe. I know they make smaller sizes because they are used on Ford E350 cutaway van chassis.

Author:	retmil46 [ Sat May 20, 2006 1:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Jake Brake / Engine brake
Jeger wrote: I certainly will that sounds interesting to me. It also sounds like an easy way to make a regenerative braking system for a homemade hybrid. Did someone say Regenerative Braking? Got that on my electric pickup. Kostov 30 HP DC traction motor with interpole windings, with Zapi H3 144 volt 800 amp controller with regen. Hit the brakes, the controller flips over the contacts on the traction motor, and the motor then becomes a generator, pumping power back into the battery pack. Honest to god engine braking, almost to a dead stop, no matter what gear, and fills up the fuel tank to boot! I've got one of the few electric conversions in the country that actually has working reliable (over 12K miles) regen using a direct current traction motor actually incorporated into the controller, and not a separate strap-on system. When I've hit the brakes with the motor wound up close to rated speed (4000 RPM), I've seen over 150 amps getting pumped back into a 120 volt battery pack, and that was on the lowest power setting. I've actually broke the tires loose stopping on a wet road.

Author:	Jeger [ Sat May 20, 2006 1:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Jake Brake / Engine brake
retmil46 wrote: Jeger wrote: I certainly will that sounds interesting to me. It also sounds like an easy way to make a regenerative braking system for a homemade hybrid. Did someone say Regenerative Braking? Got that on my electric pickup. Kostov 30 HP DC traction motor with interpole windings, with Zapi H3 144 volt 800 amp controller with regen. Hit the brakes, the controller flips over the contacts on the traction motor, and the motor then becomes a generator, pumping power back into the battery pack. Honest to god engine braking, almost to a dead stop, no matter what gear, and fills up the fuel tank to boot! I've got one of the few electric conversions in the country that actually has working reliable (over 12K miles) regen using a direct current traction motor actually incorporated into the controller, and not a separate strap-on system. When I've hit the brakes with the motor wound up close to rated speed (4000 RPM), I've seen over 150 amps getting pumped back into a 120 volt battery pack, and that was on the lowest power setting. I've actually broke the tires loose stopping on a wet road. You seem like my kind of guy. Just to stay halfway on topic... what do you think about the electromagnetic retarder/DC motor for slow controlled hill descent? And you could charge some batteries for an inverter at the same time. heck while we are at it why couldnt that battery pack power the dc motor to provide a limp home option if you should run out of fuel or otherwise break down.

Author:	RFCRD [ Sat May 20, 2006 6:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Jake Brake / Engine brake
Jeger wrote: retmil46 wrote: Jeger wrote: I certainly will that sounds interesting to me. It also sounds like an easy way to make a regenerative braking system for a homemade hybrid. Did someone say Regenerative Braking? Got that on my electric pickup. Kostov 30 HP DC traction motor with interpole windings, with Zapi H3 144 volt 800 amp controller with regen. Hit the brakes, the controller flips over the contacts on the traction motor, and the motor then becomes a generator, pumping power back into the battery pack. Honest to god engine braking, almost to a dead stop, no matter what gear, and fills up the fuel tank to boot! I've got one of the few electric conversions in the country that actually has working reliable (over 12K miles) regen using a direct current traction motor actually incorporated into the controller, and not a separate strap-on system. When I've hit the brakes with the motor wound up close to rated speed (4000 RPM), I've seen over 150 amps getting pumped back into a 120 volt battery pack, and that was on the lowest power setting. I've actually broke the tires loose stopping on a wet road. You seem like my kind of guy. Just to stay halfway on topic... what do you think about the electromagnetic retarder/DC motor for slow controlled hill descent? And you could charge some batteries for an inverter at the same time. heck while we are at it why couldnt that battery pack power the dc motor to provide a limp home option if you should run out of fuel or otherwise break down. You mean when our CRD transmission blows apart?

Author:	spoonplugger1 [ Sat May 20, 2006 9:51 am ]
Post subject:
My CRD does a better than average job of engine braking if I just take it out of overdrive. Also just because you have an automatic, it doesn't mean you have to use it that way. Put your rig in low range off roading and for many situations you'll have to much engine braking, lot's of time I have to add a little accelerator pedal going downhill.

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Author:	RFCRD [ Sat May 20, 2006 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:
spoonplugger1 wrote: My CRD does a better than average job of engine braking if I just take it out of overdrive. Also just because you have an automatic, it doesn't mean you have to use it that way. Put your rig in low range off roading and for many situations you'll have to much engine braking, lot's of time I have to add a little accelerator pedal going downhill. One thing to add, you have to downshift anyways to get a jake to work effectively. I wouldn't want to rely on Libby brakes or this short wheelbase truck to keep a heavy wagon straight on a downgrade. Good trailer brakes are a must.

Author:	onthehunt [ Sun May 21, 2006 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:
I can't even begin to explain the difficulty you will have trying to do this, but I will try. 1. Jake Brake does not and will not manufacture a brake for this application.Pretty much rules them out unless you find a small enough brake and can fab. a housing,wire harness and reprogram ecm. Actually, I'll just rule them out and do you a favor. 2. Exhaust brake will require almost as much as a Jake so I'll do you a favor and rule them out too. 3. I've actually only seen one driveline brake in my whole life(but I'm not real old and that doesn't mean they're not out there!!) and it was on a total custom International heavy hauler. The owner said it worked good but it cost him $10000. Don't know if I believe him on the price. If driveline brakes were effective and cheap I would have seen many by now. I'm not familiar with them so can't rule them out but I have a hunch your dreaming on this one too. 4. Last, but not the least, is the real question. WHAT ARE YOU HAULING THAT YOU NEED AN AUX. BRAKE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!?? If your just dreaming about an aux. brake then keep dreaming!!! If you seriously need extra brakes go buy a pickup. Sorry if I sound condecending(don't know if that's spelled right) but it really is a dream.

Author:	RFCRD [ Sun May 21, 2006 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:
onthehunt wrote: 3. I've actually only seen one driveline brake in my whole life(but I'm not real old and that doesn't mean they're not out there!!) and it was on a total custom International heavy hauler. The owner said it worked good but it cost him $10000. Don't know if I believe him on the price. If driveline brakes were effective and cheap I would have seen many by now. I'm not familiar with them so can't rule them out but I have a hunch your dreaming on this one too. Believe him on the price. It's been a few years but last I saw it was a @ $10,000 option on a road coach. Smaller Telma's for Ford E350 chassis minibuses, was @ $5000 option. Popular with transit authorities which don't think twice about buying them because in most cases they only pay 10% of the pricetag, Uncle Sugar pays the rest.