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 Post subject: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:39 am 
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On the VW TDIs I owned it was a simple thing to pop a few clips and pull the Tbelt cover and do an inspection. One could even run the engine with the cover off to check the tracking of the Tbelt and the like.

I'd like to so something similar on my CRD, but from what I have been able to see here and the CRD tech section, I'm not sure that is possible. Granted most of the descriptions and pics are from people doing a full Tbelt replacement so they are taking everything in front of the engine off to prep for that. But is there some way to just pull back the front Tbelt cover a bit and have a look without removing a bunch of stuff?

Seems to me the answer is no, but thought I would ask.

(BTW, I should not need a new Tbelt yet, the PO did that and the rockers just before I bought the car. But I thought it prudent to have a look and see how everything looks in there.)

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:18 am 
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I don't know about others, but due to all the outer belt stuff and the fan shroud, probably the only useful way would be to 2-piece the timing belt cover at about the middle of the cam sprockets, and use the top bolts to fasten it on separately. You would have to go through all the process of digging it out in order to do it, might as well do a timing belt job while you're in there, and if you do it right, there's no need to look at it for another 100K miles.

For something that has a 100K replacement interval, it seems to me that making another way for gunk / water / dirt / etc to get in, would just shorten that life.

What in particular are you wanting to inspect?

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:10 am 
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You can, in theory, pop the top few timing belt cover bolts and pry the cover back to get a tiny glimpse of the TB between the 2 cam gears. Won't tell you anything unless the belt is shredding at the edges as you cannot inspect the bottom of the belt for cracks. Just change every 6 years or 100K miles whichever comes first and forget about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:20 am 
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Thanks. Just some slight concern that the shop which replaced the Tbelt didn't do something right. I thought looking at it, especially under motion, might give a heads up if the tensioner was set wrong or some other problem was present.

But us sounds like there is no way to do that on these engines easily, so I guess I will just have to trust that all is OK.

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:50 am 
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I feel the same way you do, previous owner did timing belt about 5k miles ago and I just can't seem to trust the work. Im planning on pulling radiator shroud, pull fan and mount, pull power steering pump pulley and then serpentine belt and tensioner then I should have enough out of the way to pull the front cover.. Ill have the timing tools Incase I have to retime it


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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:12 pm 
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Dez - if your issue is whether or not it's timed correctly that's easy to check without removal of much of anything. Start off with if it's running well the timing cannot be off more than maybe 1 tooth if at all. Anyway if you have the cam pins and a long shaft 6mm or 1/4" allen key. With the fan shroud and fan off (while shroud is off cut the bottom 1/2 off just below the mounting bolt tabs and throw it away - makes future work much easier and has no impact on cooling) manually rotate the engine clockwise only with a 21mm socket on the front of the crankshaft until the crankshaft counter weight bolt heads are at 12/3/6/9 (you should be able to see the dimple next to the bolt at 3); insert cam pins; insert allen key into flywheel (tap around with in on flywheel to make sure you are going into a small hole - if not in small hole pull cam pins and rotate the engine 360 degrees at the crank and recheck); if cam pins go in and flywheel pin goes in the small hole the engine timing is ok.

No way to check TB tensioner without pulling TB cover but I strongly suspect if it's not tightened correctly TB will strip in heart beat which is bad of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:48 pm 
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Thanks for the tip. The jeep in question keeps going through turbos and seems to have a lot of unburnt fuel coming from exhaust. The cams and rockers checked out fine when PO had it apart as well and mass airflow readings are normal


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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Dez wrote:
Thanks for the tip. The jeep in question keeps going through turbos and seems to have a lot of unburnt fuel coming from exhaust. The cams and rockers checked out fine when PO had it apart as well and mass airflow readings are normal

Could be one or more bad injectors? :roll:
You may want to have them checked by a certified injector service....

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:27 pm 
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papaindigo wrote:

No way to check TB tensioner without pulling TB cover but I strongly suspect if it's not tightened correctly TB will strip in heart beat which is bad of course[/color].


So what would happen if a window could be made at this location both to see and to be large enough to loosen and adjust the TB tensioner? Seems like we could use a dremel and cut a piece of the existing TB cover and then cut a plexiglass cover to fit. That way you could see the TB Tensioner guide move over time and also adjust, all without tearing down the front end.

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:55 pm 
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WWDiesel wrote:
Dez wrote:
Thanks for the tip. The jeep in question keeps going through turbos and seems to have a lot of unburnt fuel coming from exhaust. The cams and rockers checked out fine when PO had it apart as well and mass airflow readings are normal

Could be one or more bad injectors? :roll:
You may want to have them checked by a certified injector service....


Problem is I figured I ruled that out since I swapped the whole set with the ones in my Jeep and my jeep ran fine after swapping them, and no change with her jeep.


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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:28 pm 
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papaindigo wrote:
if not in small hole pull cam pins and rotate the engine 360 degrees at the crank and recheck); if cam pins go in and flywheel pin goes in the small hole the engine timing is ok.


Beats me, how rotating the crank shaft by 360deg. (i.e., by one full turn) can somehow result in a small hole ending up in any different position than before the said rotation??? Can someone please explain? I am currently disassembling my engine to replace the head gasket, so I want to make sure that all the three pins are inserted correctly.

Thanks in advance!
A.


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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:58 pm 
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one 360 degree rotation of the crankshaft results in 180 degrees rotation of the camshafts.

If the cam timing pins don't go in when the crank is in the correct position, and nothing is broken, then the cams are most likely 180 degrees out of phase, which requires an additional full 360 degrees rotation of the crankshaft to get the cam timing pin holes to line up.

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'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
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2010 RamTrans
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custom billet TC
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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:32 am 
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Crankshaft is 1/2 the size of the camshafts, so spins 2x for every 1x of the cams. Fuel pump is 2/3 size of cams, so takes 6 full crankshaft rotations to return to starting point, but that is how a 3-lobed pump can match up injection events with a 4 cylinder engine.

Alex - you don't need to worry about timing right now during disassembly, everything will be reset when putting it back together.

Dez - Please define "going through turbos" for me, that is highly unusual! Smoke from the tail is one of three things, bad combustion, too much fuel or not enough air.

Not enough air is either a boost leak (common) or something wrong with the turbo.
Too much fuel is rare, either a bad injector (overfueling) or bad tune - you'd know if you had that.
Bad combustion is bad rockers, it would also usually sound odd at idle. The timing *could* be off just enough to cause issues and still not break rockers...

I have reason to go out West in the near future if you possibly want me to arrange stopping by. Send me a message (email below) and we can go from there.

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:13 am 
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geordi wrote:
Not enough air is either a boost leak (common) or something wrong with the turbo.

Or a badly plugged air filter. Also fairly common.

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'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:11 am 
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taroo wrote:
papaindigo wrote:

No way to check TB tensioner without pulling TB cover but I strongly suspect if it's not tightened correctly TB will strip in heart beat which is bad of course[/color].


So what would happen if a window could be made at this location both to see and to be large enough to loosen and adjust the TB tensioner? Seems like we could use a dremel and cut a piece of the existing TB cover and then cut a plexiglass cover to fit. That way you could see the TB Tensioner guide move over time and also adjust, all without tearing down the front end.


So looking at the original question, I am going to bump my idea to see what you gents think of it.

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SEGR
WEEKS Kit (removed EGR, FCV),
Gen 2 Fuel Head
GDE Eco Tune
ARP studs
Etechno (7v) Glow Plugs
F37
Carter Lift Pump (Modified wiring harness)
Fumoto (CRD-108)
Bypass oil filter (2 micron)
Samco
Provent
Sears P-1 Battery
Secondary 2 micron fuel filter


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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:53 am 
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taroo wrote:
So what would happen if a window could be made at this location both to see and to be large enough to loosen and adjust the TB tensioner? Seems like we could use a dremel and cut a piece of the existing TB cover and then cut a plexiglass cover to fit. That way you could see the TB Tensioner guide move over time and also adjust, all without tearing down the front end.

taroo wrote:
So looking at the original question, I am going to bump my idea to see what you gents think of it.

The window of re-adjustment for a timing belt is spectacularly small.
They are intended to be installed, set, and left to live their life unmolested.
I haven't researched ours specifically, but most I'm familiar with, if they have to be removed for any reason beyond 10-12k miles, they must be replaced.
This is because although a new belt has some elasticity that is figured into the correct new belt tension, a belt having run this small amount of miles has has settled in to it's proper length.
The elasticity is gone, and the tension that's left is what's calculated to live for the projected life of the belt.
If you remove / reinstall the belt beyond this point, (or readjust tension), the belt will snap/fail at an earlier and unpredictable point.

AS far as the window goes, It's an interesting idea to at least be able to have a peekaboo at the actual belt, and if any of the pulley bearings are worn out before catastrophic damage. My main concern is that it be something that would not be too thick as to contact either belt or pulley components inside or outside the timing cover.
Probably best to have it be something removable, rather than see-through, as belt and pulley dust would gather on the inside of the window, and you couldn't see past it anyway.
Another thing is that Gilmer belt drives are normally quite noisy. The existing cover does a pretty good job of cutting down on this.

_________________
'06 Lbrty Sprt CRD 147Kmi

Sasquatch
DSS Turbo
CAT-elimntr
Weeks Stg1&2 EGRfix
PV-200
BLING
vent gauges

IDParts New
head
cams
rockers
Timing set
ARP studs
eTn1 GX2123 5v GPs

Flowmster 942550
Carter P76611M
GM 12611872
Hayden 2986
GM 15017911
2010 RamTrans
Sonnax 44957
Transgo kit
custom billet TC
Cooper 51770

Future plans: GDE Trans&Hot-tune


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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:58 am 
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GordnadoCRD wrote:
taroo wrote:
So what would happen if a window could be made at this location both to see and to be large enough to loosen and adjust the TB tensioner? Seems like we could use a dremel and cut a piece of the existing TB cover and then cut a plexiglass cover to fit. That way you could see the TB Tensioner guide move over time and also adjust, all without tearing down the front end.

taroo wrote:
So looking at the original question, I am going to bump my idea to see what you gents think of it.

The window of re-adjustment for a timing belt is spectacularly small.
They are intended to be installed, set, and left to live their life unmolested.
I haven't researched ours specifically, but most I'm familiar with, if they have to be removed for any reason beyond 10-12k miles, they must be replaced.
This is because although a new belt has some elasticity that is figured into the correct new belt tension, a belt having run this small amount of miles has has settled in to it's proper length.
The elasticity is gone, and the tension that's left is what's calculated to live for the projected life of the belt.
If you remove / reinstall the belt beyond this point, (or readjust tension), the belt will snap/fail at an earlier and unpredictable point.

AS far as the window goes, It's an interesting idea to at least be able to have a peekaboo at the actual belt, and if any of the pulley bearings are worn out before catastrophic damage. My main concern is that it be something that would not be too thick as to contact either belt or pulley components inside or outside the timing cover.
Probably best to have it be something removable, rather than see-through, as belt and pulley dust would gather on the inside of the window, and you couldn't see past it anyway.
Another thing is that Gilmer belt drives are normally quite noisy. The existing cover does a pretty good job of cutting down on this.


Peace. I am talking about about a 4”x4” cutout in the cover that is in turn covered with a piece of plexiglas. That removable plexiglass 4”x4” cover will let you loosen the TB tensioner bolt and adjust the tension with the adjusting tool and then tighten the tensioner bolt. Then replace the cover.

Anyway. Just a brain fart.

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2005 CRD Limited
SEGR
WEEKS Kit (removed EGR, FCV),
Gen 2 Fuel Head
GDE Eco Tune
ARP studs
Etechno (7v) Glow Plugs
F37
Carter Lift Pump (Modified wiring harness)
Fumoto (CRD-108)
Bypass oil filter (2 micron)
Samco
Provent
Sears P-1 Battery
Secondary 2 micron fuel filter


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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:01 pm 
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Ok, I'll bite - Where you want to have that window will be blocked from visibility by the serpentine belt, idlers, and the fan clutch. The space for the fan clutch is right next to where the tensioner rides, and the adjustment should actually be positioned almost behind the clutch when it is set properly. I don't think you would get the results you want.

I run my TDI with the top cover off, and haven't noticed anything worthy of discussing as far as extra noise OR any actual reason for doing it... Other than I found the plastic cover annoying and misplaced it. There hasn't been any reason to inspect the belt during its life, I just don't know where the cover is in the garage right this second.

On the CRD, you could certainly not-install the outer cover and it wouldn't change anything mechanically about how the engine runs, but if you went driving through high water (not anything I'm worried about with the TDI) then water intrusion or debris entry could be a concern.

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:29 pm 
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How about a 1 piece molded clear plastic cover?
Might look kinda cool :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Can I take a peek at my Tbelt?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:40 pm 
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flash7210 wrote:
How about a 1 piece molded clear plastic cover?
Might look kinda cool :lol:


Yes it would, and I'd be all about that! Don't know how you would deal with the complex bends of the cover though.

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Just remember: Bad noises = REALLY bad things.


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