Cold snap, low engine temperature with heater on

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

Yesterday, we got our first cold day of the season - 37degF daytime vs. 82degF the day before. Pretty normal for this time of year around here.

On my 25-mile one-way commute to a client's site, I noticed that with the heater on the temperature gauge wasn't reaching the fully-warm point when in motion (freeway or city). Stopped for a minute or two, it would eventually recover, but after getting moving again it would move back down to the same spot.

Using this rather convenient image that I've stolen from someone else on here (sorry, I can't remember who you are) to illustrate:

With the heater on, the needle sits right at where it's shown above at the 11 o'clock mark - essentially, not quite one notch above the larger black mark midway between 'C' and straight-up. Heater off, it does better, but never quite reaches the 'normal' spot.

My guess is that the thermostat has failed and needs to be replaced, but this is also the first really cold weather we've had the KJ in and the fan clutch was just replaced (which is working as intended, from what I can tell by hand). Before I throw parts at it, can someone give me a sanity check, please?

95Z28A4 · **Joined:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:53 am **Posts:** 297

I think it's time to replace the thermostat. I installed the HDS 203F t-stat in my wife's CRD.

WWDiesel · **Posted:** Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:19 am

x2 replace the thermostat, it is going bad!

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

Thanks, folks, and appreciate the sanity check. The symptoms all seemed to point to the thermostat, but, it's a new-to-us vehicle, so wanted to double-check.

95Z28A4, re: the Hot Diesel Solutions thermostat: I love the idea of it (it's really what the stock one should have been) and completely agree that it would be the best possible way to go, but the cost is prohibitive for now. Will replace with a stock unit for the moment; depending on how long that one lasts for, I'll start figuring out whether or not it's cost-effective in the longer term.

GordnadoCRD · **Posted:** Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:11 pm

Best to avoid "stock type" offshore brands, or no-name clones. Dorman, Crown, etc. etc. The early failure rates are unbelievably off-the-charts. They will cost more in the (not very) long run, and if you're not doing the work yourself, the labor to install one twice will more than make up the cost difference by the first early failure.

If you intend to keep your Liberty for the long run, -all other benefits aside- the HDS unit will have paid for it's self by 90k miles ( in replacement unit cost savings, by the end of the second thermostat's life).

Yes, they are expensive, but they do provide long run economic payback benefits starting now, without having to wait in line for a machinist and welder to modify another one, or the failed one you have.

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Best to avoid "stock type" offshore brands, or no-name clones. Dorman, Crown, etc. etc. The early failure rates are unbelievably off-the-charts. They will cost more in the (not very) long run, and if you're not doing the work yourself, the labor to install one twice will more than make up the cost difference by the first early failure.

Nope, definitely going factory on this one. I've had a surprising number of crappy thermostats over the past 3 years or so from Autozone, etc. own-brands, and really don't care to repeat the experience here. Fortunately, I'll be replacing it myself, so that will help to keep costs manageable in the interim.

Quote:

If you intend to keep your Liberty for the long run, -all other benefits aside- the HDS unit will have paid for it's self by 90k miles ( in replacement unit cost savings, by the end of the second thermostat's life).

Yes, they are expensive, but they do provide long run economic payback benefits starting now, without having to wait in line for a machinist and welder to modify another one, or the failed one you have.

I'm in total agreement with everything you've said above. But spending roughly $300 over the factory thermostat for the HDS unit just isn't on the cards right now. Not my first choice in how to proceed by any means, but it is the best choice I have given what I can work with right now.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

casm wrote:

GordnadoCRD wrote:

Best to avoid "stock type" offshore brands, or no-name clones. Dorman, Crown, etc. etc. The early failure rates are unbelievably off-the-charts. They will cost more in the (not very) long run, and if you're not doing the work yourself, the labor to install one twice will more than make up the cost difference by the first early failure.

Nope, definitely going factory on this one. I've had a surprising number of crappy thermostats over the past 3 years or so from Autozone, etc. own-brands, and really don't care to repeat the experience here. Fortunately, I'll be replacing it myself, so that will help to keep costs manageable in the interim.

Quote:

If you intend to keep your Liberty for the long run, -all other benefits aside- the HDS unit will have paid for it's self by 90k miles ( in replacement unit cost savings, by the end of the second thermostat's life).

Yes, they are expensive, but they do provide long run economic payback benefits starting now, without having to wait in line for a machinist and welder to modify another one, or the failed one you have.

I'm in total agreement with everything you've said above. But spending roughly $300 over the factory thermostat for the HDS unit just isn't on the cards right now. Not my first choice in how to proceed by any means, but it is the best choice I have given what I can work with right now.

For the record, I am still putting feelers out there in Asia, (Philippines), for doing the machining there. It is very difficult to get this accomplished, however, as CNC machining is common in 1st world countries and quite rare to find in the Philippines. I also have to be very careful as to who I am dealing with. My best guess regarding the subject of machining in the Philippines is that the price would drop by about $100.00 USD. But that is only a best guess, and there have been no opportunities presented to me as of yet.

The current retail price of the Model 001 is very reasonable given the amount of work that goes into manufacturing one. It takes about 3 hours on a 4-axis CNC milling machine to carve one main housing, one cap and one hose barb that make up the entire housing of a Model 001. At the discount that is offered to me by the local machine shop that performs this work, this amounts to $300.00 CDN, (about $235.00 USD), for these three parts alone.

casm, there are other features with the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 that you may not have considered. The Model 001 does have 1/8" and 1/4" threaded accessory ports that are used for aftermarket temperature sending units if you want an accurate engine temperature gauge or you want to convert to an electric cooling fan from the O.E. antiquated mechanical clutch fan that came with the CRD.

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

For the record, I am still putting feelers out there in Asia, (Philippines), for doing the machining there. It is very difficult to get this accomplished, however, as CNC machining is common in 1st world countries and quite rare to find in the Philippines. I also have to be very careful as to who I am dealing with. My best guess regarding the subject of machining in the Philippines is that the price would drop by about $100.00 USD. But that is only a best guess, and there have been no opportunities presented to me as of yet.

The current retail price of the Model 001 is very reasonable given the amount of work that goes into manufacturing one. It takes about 3 hours on a 4-axis CNC milling machine to carve one main housing, one cap and one hose barb that make up the entire housing of a Model 001. At the discount that is offered to me by the local machine shop that performs this work, this amounts to $300.00 CDN, (about $235.00 USD), for these three parts alone.

casm, there are other features with the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 that you may not have considered. The Model 001 does have 1/8" and 1/4" threaded accessory ports that are used for aftermarket temperature sending units if you want an accurate engine temperature gauge or you want to convert to an electric cooling fan from the O.E. antiquated mechanical clutch fan that came with the CRD.

Jeffrey, thank you for weighing in on this one. For the record, I think you've done a fantastic job on the Model 001, and I have no argument against every advantage you've detailed it having vs. the stock thermostat unit. As I said previously, it's what should have been equipped from the factory, and I do think it's a shame that they didn't use a design as good as yours from the outset.

With that said: I am sold, but at roughly three times the cost of a stock thermostat it's just not doable right now. We had our first sub-freezing morning today, and it showed that the battery is on its last legs. That will also need replacement, as did the fan clutch and all four tyres in the past two weeks.

I am absolutely happy to be a future customer, but for the moment it's simply beyond what I can afford. However, I do look forward to ordering one from you as soon as finances permit.

95Z28A4 · **Joined:** Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:53 am **Posts:** 297

casm wrote:

95Z28A4, re: the Hot Diesel Solutions thermostat: I love the idea of it (it's really what the stock one should have been) and completely agree that it would be the best possible way to go, but the cost is prohibitive for now. Will replace with a stock unit for the moment; depending on how long that one lasts for, I'll start figuring out whether or not it's cost-effective in the longer term.

Yep......It's expensive. For me, it was worth it. The factory t-stat began failing at 70k miles. I expect to get 300k miles from the CRD. Replacing the factory t-stat is a PITA. Replacement of the 203F hemi t-stat is easy and inexpensive with the HDS housing.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

casm wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

For the record, I am still putting feelers out there in Asia, (Philippines), for doing the machining there. It is very difficult to get this accomplished, however, as CNC machining is common in 1st world countries and quite rare to find in the Philippines. I also have to be very careful as to who I am dealing with. My best guess regarding the subject of machining in the Philippines is that the price would drop by about $100.00 USD. But that is only a best guess, and there have been no opportunities presented to me as of yet.

The current retail price of the Model 001 is very reasonable given the amount of work that goes into manufacturing one. It takes about 3 hours on a 4-axis CNC milling machine to carve one main housing, one cap and one hose barb that make up the entire housing of a Model 001. At the discount that is offered to me by the local machine shop that performs this work, this amounts to $300.00 CDN, (about $235.00 USD), for these three parts alone.

casm, there are other features with the Hot Diesel Solutions Model 001 that you may not have considered. The Model 001 does have 1/8" and 1/4" threaded accessory ports that are used for aftermarket temperature sending units if you want an accurate engine temperature gauge or you want to convert to an electric cooling fan from the O.E. antiquated mechanical clutch fan that came with the CRD.

Jeffrey, thank you for weighing in on this one. For the record, I think you've done a fantastic job on the Model 001, and I have no argument against every advantage you've detailed it having vs. the stock thermostat unit. As I said previously, it's what should have been equipped from the factory, and I do think it's a shame that they didn't use a design as good as yours from the outset.

With that said: I am sold, but at roughly three times the cost of a stock thermostat it's just not doable right now. We had our first sub-freezing morning today, and it showed that the battery is on its last legs. That will also need replacement, as did the fan clutch and all four tyres in the past two weeks.

I am absolutely happy to be a future customer, but for the moment it's simply beyond what I can afford. However, I do look forward to ordering one from you as soon as finances permit.

I totally understand... I am just posting my comments for the record. :mrgreen:

There are some members of this forum who seem to think I am taking advantage of the situation and gouging CRD owners, but that simply is not the case. Most manufacturers are at least doubling the on the money they have to pay for costs, and most of the time they are tripling or even making 4x the money they have to pay. I am making significantly less than double my investment

I really am trying to do all that I can to lower costs and alleviate sticker shock, but it is a real struggle to do so.

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

I totally understand... I am just posting my comments for the record. :mrgreen:

Hah, no worries

Quote:

There are some members of this forum who seem to think I am taking advantage of the situation and gouging CRD owners, but that simply is not the case. Most manufacturers are at least doubling the on the money they have to pay for costs, and most of the time they are tripling or even making 4x the money they have to pay. I am making significantly less than double my investment

I really am trying to do all that I can to lower costs and alleviate sticker shock, but it is a real struggle to do so.

A friend of mine started his own business about 5 years ago manufacturing parts and machinery for automated firearm cartridge loading and reloading. His stuff is really nicely made, and in certain cases uses some of the same manufacturing processes that you are with the Model 001.

While I am not directly involved in his business (or yours, for that matter

), he and I have talked about it frequently enough that I have a tiny amount of insight into what it takes to do small manufacturing runs using those processes. It's not cheap, and that's with doing as much in-house as he can to control costs. Factor in the following:

Development time, including research, fabrication, and testing of prototypes (most of which end up discarded or destroyed)
Material costs (which typically only go higher over time)
Machine shop costs (CNC isn't cheap to get into, so using someone else's facilities is necessary for low-volume runs)
Marketing (can't make a product and not have people know about it)
Product delivery and support (support in particular eats up a larger chunk of time than people tend to realise)

There are probably at least a couple of things I've missed in that list, but it should be close enough to get the general idea across.

Ultimately, though, this leaves few good ways to reduce costs without compromising quality - and compromising quality leads to compromising reputation, which in turn compromises the ability to develop and sell products in the future. There is no single good answer to this problem, and while there are options (offshoring manufacturing, changing suppliers, etc.) that may help, they also have their own inherent risks.

Cost, price and value are three separate and distinct things, and reducing the first two without harming the third is not an easy task.

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

casm wrote:

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

I totally understand... I am just posting my comments for the record. :mrgreen:

Hah, no worries

Quote:

There are some members of this forum who seem to think I am taking advantage of the situation and gouging CRD owners, but that simply is not the case. Most manufacturers are at least doubling the on the money they have to pay for costs, and most of the time they are tripling or even making 4x the money they have to pay. I am making significantly less than double my investment

I really am trying to do all that I can to lower costs and alleviate sticker shock, but it is a real struggle to do so.

A friend of mine started his own business about 5 years ago manufacturing parts and machinery for automated firearm cartridge loading and reloading. His stuff is really nicely made, and in certain cases uses some of the same manufacturing processes that you are with the Model 001.

While I am not directly involved in his business (or yours, for that matter

), he and I have talked about it frequently enough that I have a tiny amount of insight into what it takes to do small manufacturing runs using those processes. It's not cheap, and that's with doing as much in-house as he can to control costs. Factor in the following:

Development time, including research, fabrication, and testing of prototypes (most of which end up discarded or destroyed)
Material costs (which typically only go higher over time)
Machine shop costs (CNC isn't cheap to get into, so using someone else's facilities is necessary for low-volume runs)
Marketing (can't make a product and not have people know about it)
Product delivery and support (support in particular eats up a larger chunk of time than people tend to realise)

There are probably at least a couple of things I've missed in that list, but it should be close enough to get the general idea across.

Ultimately, though, this leaves few good ways to reduce costs without compromising quality - and compromising quality leads to compromising reputation, which in turn compromises the ability to develop and sell products in the future. There is no single good answer to this problem, and while there are options (offshoring manufacturing, changing suppliers, etc.) that may help, they also have their own inherent risks.

Cost, price and value are three separate and distinct things, and reducing the first two without harming the third is not an easy task.

You have absolutely nailed this. I am certain your friends business has problems to work out that potential customers can not even fathom... it certainly is the case with manufacturing the Model 001.

If he is a 1-man company like me with very limited capital to work with, then his problems are often compounded because EVERYTHING takes so much more time to accomplish. My promise to streamline post-machining production and to re-introduce anodizing in the Model 001 and other possible thermostat assemblies in the future has been delayed by months because of my lack of money to work with and the fact that I do not have anyone else to rely upon when I am pulled away from work.

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

You have absolutely nailed this.

Thanks - it's good to know that I was at least in the ballpark

Quote:

I am certain your friends business has problems to work out that potential customers can not even fathom... it certainly is the case with manufacturing the Model 001.

His business is possibly different to yours in that he doesn't target the retail market; the vast majority of his work is B2B. Having said that, there are definite similarities in that one of the areas he works in is the repair and improvement of existing machinery in order to remove designed-in shortcomings and/or provide greater flexibility in terms of the machines' capabilities (much like the Model 001 does).

But, yes, he definitely still runs into issues that his customers - despite understanding why they need his services and products - don't always grasp. Example: one of his suppliers informed him one day that they would no longer be carrying a particular type of steel stock. This was three months into the design of a project, and the supplier had been asked prior to the start of the project whether or not that particular stock would be available in about four months when the design would be ready for prototyping. Of course, they had said 'yes' at that time - but their change in supply policies meant that almost the entire design had to be reworked to accommodate the change in materials, which in turn led to frustration on the customer's behalf when they learned that this would delay their order.

Quote:

If he is a 1-man company like me with very limited capital to work with, then his problems are often compounded because EVERYTHING takes so much more time to accomplish.

Bingo! And, working as a IT consultant myself (and in a reasonably specialised area of IT), what it means to be a 1-man company in terms of both available time and cashflow is something that I very much understand: you can have time or you can have money. Pick one, and you only get one. The choice is even more fun if you're just starting out and having to also hold down a regular job while you springboard the personal business into (hopefully) a success - which, at this level, just means enough cashflow for it to sustain itself and let you pay bills, eat, have a place to live, etc. without needing that day job. Growing it is an entirely other question, and that's a whole other ball of wax.

Quote:

My promise to streamline post-machining production and to re-introduce anodizing in the Model 001 and other possible thermostat assemblies in the future has been delayed by months because of my lack of money to work with and the fact that I do not have anyone else to rely upon when I am pulled away from work.

I hear you loud and clear on that one. I really need an employee (even just part-time) to take care of a lot of things that are detail work but critical to the heavy lifting of the business - not so much administrative tasks, which I'm still at a small enough size to be able to handle in-house, but stuff like basic configuration of equipment, putting it in racks, cabling it up, etc. Things that generate revenue but eat time that could be spent on other areas that would help to grow and sustain the business in the long term.

Today I'm down sick with the 'flu. Might be down tomorrow as well based on how I'm feeling. Can't really get much of anything done other than some small stuff, and that's not generating as much cashflow as I'd like to see. But I sure have plenty of time as a result...

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK · **Joined:** Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:29 pm **Posts:** 1167

casm, how close are you to Canada?

I need someone to help me build a website.

casm · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:05 pm **Posts:** 694

TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:

casm, how close are you to Canada?

I need someone to help me build a website.

Jeffrey, check your inbox - I sent you a PM regarding the above.

Cold snap, low engine temperature with heater on

Who is online