LOST JEEPS
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/

How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=87403		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mountainman [ Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
After years of no VH, I'm thinking about putting one back to speed warm ups. I hear that the elevated idle is in fact available? How much? I'm thinking of both, but I know the gde tune limits the VH function a lot, anyone remember the cut-off temp? I'm installing a webasto in a friends jeep soon, so maybe that's a good option, but I don't want to clutter up my engine bay.
Thanks for your thoughts. As much as I like the open space and access, cold running is the biggest contributor to upper cylinder wear, or so I've read.
Author:  WWDiesel [ Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Just a thought!
If the viscous heater is in service (cold enough to activate relay) and you have heat selected in the vehicle, being the VH is heating the coolant that is going to the heater core, I would expect that the heater core heat exchanger is removing any heat it supplies and would add very little or no heat to any actual engine parts.
The heater core flow discharges right back into the water pump suction where it is mixing with the much cooler liquid coming from the radiator!
So, any left over heat in the outgoing coolant provided by the VH would be quickly negated by mixing with the much larger incoming cooler liquid flow!!! :roll:
Author:  mass-hole [ Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
I would imagine it adds some drag to the motor thus more fuel is consumed and the engine warms up faster.

Not sure on the effect of it heating the actual coolant.

I would imagine that if you start it and jump in and start driving, the VH has little effect(pulling the jeep around requires a lot more power than turning the VH). If you let it sit in the driveway for 10 minutes, it probably does have some effect.

I also don’t know that high idle does anything. I have had it on my tune the last two winters and I don’t really see a difference in warm up time.

I’m of the school now that I start the engine, let the rpms settle, then go. I try to keep the rpms as low as possible until the temp needle starts to move. It starts to warm up in a few minutes this way. The engine is full warmed before I get to town which is ~7 minutes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK [ Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Mountainman, if you are seriously considering installing the Webasto TSL17, the viscous heater is not required. The TSL17 can heat a 4000 lb commercial engine block; it is fully 12.5 times the power of your block heater.

As long as you make use of your Webasto heater each and every time, and use it to fully warm your engine, you will...

1) ...save a considerable amount of fuel. The TSL17 will heat your engine faster than actually idling it, and heats the engine much more efficiently. The absolute worst case scenario, (-40 degrees or colder), the TSL17 only requires about 45 minutes to heat the engine to 170 degrees. The huge heat output of the TSL17 makes it extremely convenient to use, and basically relegates both a viscous heater and a high idle feature as redundant.

2) ...cut down considerably on wear and tear of your engine. You essentially have no warm-up anymore as the engine is virtually at operating temperature even before it cranks for the first time.

3) ...have instant heat in your cab.

There is also something else to consider. With the viscous heater removed, you now have a place for a belt driven oil pump to operate an oil spinner, (essentially, a centrifuge). Oil spinners are the absolute best filtration technology available. The best media filters will filter oil down to about 1 micron sized particles, and must be replaced from time-to-time. Spinners, on the other hand, will remove particles down to 1/10 of a micron. There is also no filter to replace; you simply remove the cap from the spinner, clean it out and replace it back on the spinner. You would require a separate oil sump that is linked to the oil pan under the engine, but that can indeed be fabricated.

Remember also that the Webasto heater can be mounted in the Sasquatch Motorsports battery tray, so you can indeed tuck it away. On a side note, when this product was introduced by Sasquatch Motorsports, I expressed some concern about the heat output of the Webasto heater and that it might cause heat damage to parts that are close by, (plastic fenders and other such things). Has anyone had any problems with the Sasquatch Battery Tray when a Webasto heater is installed?
Author:  joe_ [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Mountainman wrote:
I hear that the elevated idle is in fact available? How much?
Good question. GDE lists a Tune Upgrade on their site; maybe it would fall under that? Probably best to check with GDE to find out for sure.


Mountainman wrote:
I'm thinking of both, but I know the gde tune limits the VH function a lot, anyone remember the cut-off temp?
Found an old post:
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The viscous heater is not timed and will turn on based on engine rpm, ambient temp and coolant temp. The second two are the most important factors. A stock CRD has the following settings to have the VH on: ambient temp below 53.6 F and coolant temp below 161.6 F. With the tune the new limits are: ambient temp below 44.6 F and coolant temp below 131 F.
source: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50044&p=570775#p570775
Author:  joe_ [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
WWDiesel wrote:
If the viscous heater is in service (cold enough to activate relay) and you have heat selected in the vehicle, being the VH is heating the coolant that is going to the heater core, I would expect that the heater core heat exchanger is removing any heat it supplies and would add very little or no heat to any actual engine parts.
Well then set the HVAC blower to "Low" or "Off" until the engine warms up a bit. :SOMBRERO:


WWDiesel wrote:
The heater core flow discharges right back into the water pump suction where it is mixing with the much cooler liquid coming from the radiator!
So, any left over heat in the outgoing coolant provided by the VH would be quickly negated by mixing with the much larger incoming cooler liquid flow!!! :roll:
Ideally there shouldn't be much coolant flowing from the radiator on a cold engine (assuming a properly-operating thermostat). Most of it should be recirculating from the thermostat housing either to the viscous heater and then the heater core, or directly through the bypass hose back into the water pump inlet.
Author:  joe_ [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
mass-hole wrote:
Not sure on the effect of it heating the actual coolant.
The coolant flows out of the thermostat housing, through the viscous heater, through the heater core, then returns to the water pump inlet which sends it into the engine block, up through the head, and back to the thermostat housing. So in theory it should be helping to heat the passenger compartment as well as the engine. In GDE's testing it supposedly helps quite a bit at a faster idle:
GreenDieselEngineering wrote:
The viscous heater works fairly quickly with rpm above 1000.
source: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83373&p=880284#p880284


mass-hole wrote:
I also don’t know that high idle does anything. I have had it on my tune the last two winters and I don’t really see a difference in warm up time.
Probably a dumb question, but you still have your viscous heater installed and operating, right? (I remember at least a couple members bypassed/removed it, but can't remember who)
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
The function is pretty much spelled out by the name FCA uses for the VH, which is "Auxiliary Cabin Heater".
This is borne out (as pointed out above) that whatever the BTU output of this device is, 100% of it goes straight to the heater core before going anywhere else.
Also, even if it eventually blends with the colder coolant from the radiator, BTU are still BTU, and the thermal energy is not lost, it simply adds to the coolant temperature in the whole system, then (if working properly) should excuse it's self from service before the thermostat opens, so energy isn't wasted.
And yes, it is essentially a means to use diesel fuel energy to add heat to the coolant, but it will waste some (tiny bit) via belt drive, clutch, bearings, and electrical energy to power the clutch. It seems (theoretically), a direct system like the Webasto should have less wasted energy if working properly.
I've never had need for anything more than a plug-in heater, so don't know from experience.
Author:  mass-hole [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
GordnadoCRD wrote:
The function is pretty much spelled out by the name FCA uses for the VH, which is "Auxiliary Cabin Heater".
This is borne out (as pointed out above) that whatever the BTU output of this device is, 100% of it goes straight to the heater core before going anywhere else.
Also, even if it eventually blends with the colder coolant from the radiator, BTU are still BTU, and the thermal energy is not lost, it simply adds to the coolant temperature in the whole system, then (if working properly) should excuse it's self from service before the thermostat opens, so energy isn't wasted.
And yes, it is essentially a means to use diesel fuel energy to add heat to the coolant, but it will waste some (tiny bit) via belt drive, clutch, bearings, and electrical energy to power the clutch. It seems (theoretically), a direct system like the Webasto should have less wasted energy if working properly.
I've never had need for anything more than a plug-in heater, so don't know from experience.


The Webasto should be significantly better since its using the diesel fuel to create heat, not mechanical energy like is required for the VH.

I supposed if you run the HVAC can on low, then more heat will bypass the heater core and help warm up the engine.
Author:  Mountainman [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Thanks for the fine discussion, and the all of the info fellas! I think there are two options:
1. Webasto; much better. Thanks Jeff for the info. I'll see how the install goes, I do already have the battery tray for my Jeep, so that helps.
2. VH + high idle, heater on low (bonus of warmer cab). Since gde tested this, I bet it cuts down warm up considerably, but I still wonder how much someone has actually paid gde for this?
Author:  TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK [ Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Excellent replies from all posters. I think a reasonably thorough understanding of the role of the viscous heater has been discussed here. I really like what was written by Green Diesel Engineering about the operating parameters of the VH; O.E. specifications vs the lower numbers offered through a GDE tune.

In real world terms, the installation of a Webasto heater will do an end-run around all of this, and in conjunction with a hot thermostat and a grill cover in the coldest temperatures you should never see your engine temperatures fall below 195 degrees Fahrenheit. Yes, I know it is expensive, but the cost/benefit ratio makes this an excellent thing to do. Your engine WILL thank you for it.

Mountainman, I just telephoned my Amsoil Representative, (a chemical engineer and the guy who sells oil spinners locally here in Edmonton), to see if there is a manufacturer of a high quality, (100% duty cycle), belt driven oil pump of the correct size for a spinner for the 2.8L CRD engine. He knows of none, because the volumes and pressures required for this application are so small that it falls below industrial quality parameters. I will still try to look for one.
Author:  Mountainman [ Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Excellent replies from all posters. I think a reasonably thorough understanding of the role of the viscous heater has been discussed here. I really like what was written by Green Diesel Engineering about the operating parameters of the VH; O.E. specifications vs the lower numbers offered through a GDE tune.

In real world terms, the installation of a Webasto heater will do an end-run around all of this, and in conjunction with a hot thermostat and a grill cover in the coldest temperatures you should never see your engine temperatures fall below 195 degrees Fahrenheit. Yes, I know it is expensive, but the cost/benefit ratio makes this an excellent thing to do. Your engine WILL thank you for it.

Mountainman, I just telephoned my Amsoil Representative, (a chemical engineer and the guy who sells oil spinners locally here in Edmonton), to see if there is a manufacturer of a high quality, (100% duty cycle), belt driven oil pump of the correct size for a spinner for the 2.8L CRD engine. He knows of none, because the volumes and pressures required for this application are so small that it falls below industrial quality parameters. I will still try to look for one.


Thanks again, it's definitely still one that I'm considering. It might save my frozen butt when I climb off the mountain sometime while elk hunting. I throw in a spare battery, have the grid heater, but these are some cold blooded diesels.
Author:  TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK [ Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Mountainman wrote:
TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK wrote:
Excellent replies from all posters. I think a reasonably thorough understanding of the role of the viscous heater has been discussed here. I really like what was written by Green Diesel Engineering about the operating parameters of the VH; O.E. specifications vs the lower numbers offered through a GDE tune.

In real world terms, the installation of a Webasto heater will do an end-run around all of this, and in conjunction with a hot thermostat and a grill cover in the coldest temperatures you should never see your engine temperatures fall below 195 degrees Fahrenheit. Yes, I know it is expensive, but the cost/benefit ratio makes this an excellent thing to do. Your engine WILL thank you for it.

Mountainman, I just telephoned my Amsoil Representative, (a chemical engineer and the guy who sells oil spinners locally here in Edmonton), to see if there is a manufacturer of a high quality, (100% duty cycle), belt driven oil pump of the correct size for a spinner for the 2.8L CRD engine. He knows of none, because the volumes and pressures required for this application are so small that it falls below industrial quality parameters. I will still try to look for one.


Thanks again, it's definitely still one that I'm considering. It might save my frozen butt when I climb off the mountain sometime while elk hunting. I throw in a spare battery, have the grid heater, but these are some cold blooded diesels.


I have news for you Mountainman... diesel engines are all cold-blodded beasts. :(

I just purchased a brand new 2017 Chevrolet Colorado with the Duramax 2.8L because I could not get anyone locally who owns either a Colorado or a Canyon diesel to co-operate in developing a Hot Diesel Solutions Model 002 engine thermostat assembly. The Colorado starts easily in cold weather without being plugged in, (-10 degrees Celsius; and where I have it parked there is no means to plug it in), but it takes FOREVER to heat up, just like the Liberty CRD.

I know the Colorado is running too cool, just like the Liberty CRD. The highest I have seen the needle on the O.E. temperature gauge is half-way between the 1/4 mark and the 1/2 mark, (the 1/2 mark is vertical, just like the CRD), and that is after running on the freeway. There is less than 1000 km rolled up on this vehicle, and ALREADY there is milky crap accumulating under the oil fill cap of the engine.

The first thing I am going to do is some bodywork upgrades to the Colorado, at which point I will be installing a Webasto heater. Then the Colorado is going into the machine shop to begin development on the Model 002.
Author:  Mountainman [ Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Cool, so is that also an Isuzu engine? They are some of the best diesels made, or were in the past anyhow
Author:  mass-hole [ Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Mountainman wrote:
Cool, so is that also an Isuzu engine? They are some of the best diesels made, or were in the past anyhow


No its a later revision of our motors. I believe GDE said its an A428 similar to whats in the current JK overseas. It uses a Delphi injection system instead of Bosch.
Author:  TURBO-DIESEL-FREAK [ Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
mass-hole wrote:
Mountainman wrote:
Cool, so is that also an Isuzu engine? They are some of the best diesels made, or were in the past anyhow


No its a later revision of our motors. I believe GDE said its an A428 similar to whats in the current JK overseas. It uses a Delphi injection system instead of Bosch.



The Duramax 2.8L diesel engine is most definitely a V.M. Motori A428.
Author:  Mountainman [ Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Hmm, hopefully they got the head gasket issues fixed. I've been messing with a Vw 1.9 TDI(bew), and the tty bolts do a great job, rarely do the hg's leak. They do have other deficiencies though, mainly eating cams, but wert the right oil this one was still alright, not great at 220k miles. Sounds pretty good compared to our Italian girlfriends :juggle:
Author:  GordnadoCRD [ Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
VMM A428 is next revision of ours, with most issues ironed out, and a few new ones of it's own thrown in. I'm sure "issues" will be addressed as they gain age and volume marketed.
Author:  mass-hole [ Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
Mountainman wrote:
Hmm, hopefully they got the head gasket issues fixed. I've been messing with a Vw 1.9 TDI(bew), and the tty bolts do a great job, rarely do the hg's leak. They do have other deficiencies though, mainly eating cams, but wert the right oil this one was still alright, not great at 220k miles. Sounds pretty good compared to our Italian girlfriends :juggle:


I think they have. I believe the head bolt pattern is totally different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  flash7210 [ Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How helpful is the Viscous heater with gde tune?
mass-hole wrote:
Mountainman wrote:
Hmm, hopefully they got the head gasket issues fixed. I've been messing with a Vw 1.9 TDI(bew), and the tty bolts do a great job, rarely do the hg's leak. They do have other deficiencies though, mainly eating cams, but wert the right oil this one was still alright, not great at 220k miles. Sounds pretty good compared to our Italian girlfriends :juggle:


I think they have. I believe the head bolt pattern is totally different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The 2.8L Duramax head is completely redesigned.
The head only needs 10 head bolts.
The cams are mounted in/on the head like a traditional DOHC engine.
Intake ports are on the side of the head.
And the valve cover is just a valve cover.

But it still uses a timing belt :roll:

The block is also different in that it uses traditional main caps for the crank :shock:
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/